hitmanNo2 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Just spotted these pics on Redwolf's facebook. - Co2 powered - 100% Stainless Steel - Fully licensed IMI trademarks - Improved durability of internal components - Fire control system redesigned and recoil upgraded - $1200USD Interesting to see (so far) that it is currently not defaced with some *suitcase* seeing as cyberscum are involved with the licensing. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 For $1200, you could buy a pair of TM's and a pair of Guarder kits. You could have 2 for the price of one of these. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 True or make Kodiaks Gold one! Its one thing Id love to have but cant justify that price tag!! Although it being CO2 does intice me somewhat Link to post Share on other sites
Firefly0 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Guys its stainless steel, not the same thing as cheap metal Guarder bodies... Now i am afraid of the price of the 1911 :/ Link to post Share on other sites
Korppi Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 It would seem probable that the 1911 will share the 4 digit price tag...As in the end most are content with lesser gasses and lesser materials->Small production. Also could be that they think KJW fills the lesser price co2 marui type niche and so just do a limited prod. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 What are guarder bodies made from? Alu? Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Interesting to see (so far) that it is currently not defaced with some *suitcase* seeing as cyberscum are involved with the licensing. They defaced it instead with the "magnum research" trades instead. I'm half tempted to make this a race gun... CO2 makes for fairly stable FPS... Link to post Share on other sites
Firefly0 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 What are guarder bodies made from? Alu? Die casted aluminum most likely, which isn't the best but its enough for airsoft i think. Also Inokatsu wants feedback no this on their facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=193889807295448&set=a.193889767295452.47417.131000856917677 For those suprised by the price, just think how much a full steel custom gbb is, 1200$ for full steel body and internals isn't that much in my opinion. Link to post Share on other sites
FireKnife Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Steel Desert Eagle = Win. Price tag of £1200 (£750-800) = Fail. Sorry but this for the average game playing skirmisher is just not going to fly, the only people i can see remotley interested in this are those that think Systema PTW's are made from God / Allah / Buddha 's own hands. Also Marui cloned internals i am assuming. 'FireKnife' Link to post Share on other sites
Horsem4n Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 yeah, but you guys know that these are steel down to the loading nozzle right? not just a steel body.(at least that's what redwolf says.) i'm interested as long as they don't break. ever. im just not sure if i want to get the desert eagle or the 1911. the fact that the DE is stainless makes it a very hard decision. if they were to release a tactical 1911, it would be even harder of a choice. my flamer side tells me to get the DE though. i do currently run with one of those gold plated SG 1911s... the absolute quality of the gun just gives me a boner. Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Even if you ignore the fact that stainless bar stock is quite a bit more expensive then aluminum (by like, an order of magnitude depending on the dimensions), the time it takes to cast something out of aluminum versus machine something out of steel alone justifies the cost difference. If you've spent any time on the mill, then you'd know that even if you do machine the aluminum, it still takes much longer to make the same piece out of stainless, a difference that is exacerbated if you increase the geometric complexity of the part This may not be something for the average 14 year old airsofter, but $1200 is not unreasonable for someone who pursues airsoft (for skirmishing or collecting, or both) as a serious hobby.Judging by the popularity of higher end GBBRs, I think there is a large enough market to justify production, at least for the 1911. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Guys its stainless steel, not the same thing as cheap metal Guarder bodies... Stainless steel maybe, but i've got a friend who's been running his TM based, Guarder electroplating kitted DE .50 for 4 years now. Heavily. The only failure in that 4 years has been the loading nozzle after 3 of those years. So essentially, you spend $600 on a TM with a Guarder kit, and then you've got $600 for a few lifetime's supplies of loading nozzles. Steel is a lot like a PTW - People will buy it for the name. Sure, steel is nice, but is it really worth paying $1200 for a slightly nicer finish? Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 People aren't buying this because it's a nicer finish, or because it might be incrementally more durable than an aluminum pistol. They're buying it because of the "added realism." That has to be one of the primary selling points, because Inokatsu is certainly not known to have their new products run flawlessly out of the box. The stock ABS body on my old TM SR16 was perfectly fine, and probably much better than a lot of aftermarket metal receivers, yet the first upgrade many people look at is a metal receiver.I mean a lot of airsoft is about looking and feeling the part. People dislike something because it has improper trademarks. Doesn't influence the performance, but turns off customers. Similarly with material. The firearm is steel, but my replica is aluminum? Disconnect, would rather it be steel, etc. Link to post Share on other sites
Horsem4n Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 lol, slightly. the gun will probably kick a lot harder than any other airsoft pistol yet and function all year around. plus, i wouldn't worry about it breaking when using CO2 in the hottest days of the summer. truth is, ill probably never buy it. its just too much for me, even for what it is (or what it may be) Link to post Share on other sites
Firefly0 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Seems you guys don't get the point of having a gbb with steel body, this is for people wants the most realistic, durable and most powerfull recoil possible on a GBB. Most people are happy with a marui+generic aluminum body/slide but there are people who wants something more. By the way i noticed that Inokatsu's M4/M16 posters also have prices from 1200 to 1400, but in stores they are like 300$ cheaper. Link to post Share on other sites
Inari Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Agreed 100% with firefly - I await it eagerly...unfortunately Stupid expensive shiney things making my bank account cry itself to sleep Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I guess i am missing the point a little - It's a niche product aimed at a microscopic sized market. It definitely does look the tits, but i dunno... If an aluminium one can be produced for $400 or so (including the TM original and the guarder kit), does it really cost an extra $800 to make it out of steel? I don't know a lot about metalwork, but it can't be that harder to machine can it? Really? Link to post Share on other sites
ED-SKaR Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Seems you guys don't get the point of having a gbb with steel body, this is for people wants the most realistic, durable and most powerfull recoil possible on a GBB. Most people are happy with a marui+generic aluminum body/slide but there are people who wants something more. By the way i noticed that Inokatsu's M4/M16 posters also have prices from 1200 to 1400, but in stores they are like 300$ cheaper. I prefer plastic slides and frames. Link to post Share on other sites
slu Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Well a lot of that is just mark up. It's hard to judge how much it actually costs for them to manufacture it, since we have no idea regarding their manufacturing setup, but surely they will charge whatever the market bears. As for aluminum versus steel, my statement comes from my experience that it just takes waay longer for an endmill to go through stainless steel, while it will just melt through aluminum like butter. It is also torturously slow to tap holes in stainless, lest you want to break a tap accidentally and start all over. More time means more money you pay to the machinist looking at the computer screen while the path runs and more time the mill isn't doing other things, etc. Inokatsu seems to have a competent marketing crew and an R&D team that consists of folks that just copy technical drawings from WA (or in these cases, TM). It's a company whose target market is the high-end realism queers (I'm not saying I'm not). There is no real technical innovation, just sort of aesthetic pieces with higher grade materials and extras like "licensed" trademarks. Link to post Share on other sites
RacingManiac Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 yeah, but you guys know that these are steel down to the loading nozzle right? not just a steel body.(at least that's what redwolf says.) Not sure if thats entirely a good thing...thin wall steel cylinder might be more prone to cracking that something more pliable, unlike a M4 bolt in GBBR where there are places for extra meat, the TM style nozzle was designed for injection molding.... Also ask how many people need to tune their GBBR with aluminum nozzle properly with the right hop-up chamber to get it to not chop BBs....myself included.... And the extra inertia of some of those parts may do some odd things with the blowback process, you never know....there is a right material for every job, same material is not necessarily right one all the time... Link to post Share on other sites
Rob15 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Does it really cost an extra $800 to make it out of steel? I don't know a lot about metalwork, but it can't be that harder to machine can it? Really? As for aluminum versus steel, my statement comes from my experience that it just takes waay longer for an endmill to go through stainless steel, while it will just melt through aluminum like butter. It is also torturous to tap holes in stainless. As slu says, steel is a lot harder to machine and if you go to pretty much anyone who works with/runs CNC machines and ask for something to be made in steel they'll almost always say something along the lines of "Does it have to be in steel, can you get away with aluminium instead?". A good commercial CNC machine will rip through billets of aluminium at frankly an alarming rate, with steel the whole process is slower and the wear in tooling is much higher making it even more difficult to hold the specified tolerances. Also, again as slu says we don't really know the full manufacturing method, if the whole gun is machined from billets then you could easily be talking a normal working day (yes, a day) to machine one of these in total across all the parts, the devil is in the detail as they say. Link to post Share on other sites
hwagan Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 As slu says, steel is a lot harder to machine and if you go to pretty much anyone who works with/runs CNC machines and ask for something to be made in steel they'll almost always say something along the lines of "Does it have to be in steel, can you get away with aluminium instead?". A good commercial CNC machine will rip through billets of aluminium at frankly an alarming rate, with steel the whole process is slower and the wear in tooling is much higher making it even more difficult to hold the specified tolerances. Also, again as slu says we don't really know the full manufacturing method, if the whole gun is machined from billets then you could easily be talking a normal working day (yes, a day) to machine one of these in total across all the parts, the devil is in the detail as they say. That sounds pretty damn reasonable to me. Really that bad? I mean, i figured steel was harder to machine, but i didn't realise quite how much more difficult it was. Link to post Share on other sites
bankz5152 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 I wonder where the hop unit is. It looks like where it is on a TM is one peice... Link to post Share on other sites
wolfgeorge Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 For all us European who can't get a pistol that easy it's great news!! I'm definitely going to buy it!! When is the release date??? Link to post Share on other sites
TheFull9 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Share Posted February 15, 2011 Considering you could buy 7-8 TM pistols, just leave them stock and have 7-8 highly performing GBB pistols, for that same price, it's obviously aimed at a specific niche; that niche not being the practical skirmisher who wants the most from his money. But end of the day, that's fine. You can still just buy the TM eagle and it'll kick pretty hard compared to a lot of GBBs, and then you could put a metal kit on that TM and it'll be even more of a beast, the option doesn't disappear all of a sudden. Out at a game, compared to just using say, a TM P226, your overall effectiveness is realistically going to be a lot lower when you take in to account all possible factors. But then every time you pull the trigger on that massive chunk of steel it's going to be quite an experience, and considering how few of them they'll probably make and the materials used, the price is to be expected. For the backyard shooter or skirmisher that's not fussed about his K/D or his wallet, then it's an entirely new option that adds a whole extra level of possibility in terms of experience (and expense). For me, I don't get Systemas because I don't really see what they give you that can't basically be done with a TM EBBr or a £200 G&P, and I'm sure $600 worth of TM eagle with the metal kit would be pretty close to this, for the money, but sometimes products just cost what they cost, if it's different and unique then release it, the more choice the better. Link to post Share on other sites
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