Vfc Hk417 GBB

[christhesecond]

Yeah isn't that because they're in Deutschland?

[DWells55]

Wait for Asia Edition. Duh.

 

Ah, is that the difference with the Asia edition? I noticed that I've seen pictures of their 416 both with and without the awful Umarex trademarks. I've been out of airsoft for the past six years and am just getting back in, so I've got a lot of catching up to do. I have noticed that it's a hell of a lot harder to find accurate Glock or HK trademarks now thanks to Umarex and all the other nonsense.

 

Since VFC technically has paid for the license, can you get the Asia editions imported to the US without the trades covered/destroyed?

[biMMer25]

Ah, is that the difference with the Asia edition? I noticed that I've seen pictures of their 416 both with and without the awful Umarex trademarks. I've been out of airsoft for the past six years and am just getting back in, so I've got a lot of catching up to do. I have noticed that it's a hell of a lot harder to find accurate Glock or HK trademarks now thanks to Umarex and all the other nonsense.

 

Since VFC technically has paid for the license, can you get the Asia editions imported to the US without the trades covered/destroyed?

I think that the shop will just put a tape on the trademarks if it will be shipped to US. And yes, the asia edition has the correct trademarks.

[PureSilver]

Since VFC technically has paid for the license, can you get the Asia editions imported to the US without the trades covered/destroyed?

 

Short answer, no.

 

Long answer, no. Umarex can only grant licenses of intellectual property it has itself been licensed (i.e., they can't sell what they don't have). Umarex can't license VFC's use of the trademarks in markets where Umarex themselves don't have a license from the original intellectual property rights holder (HK, in this instance). Because Umarex appear to have licenses from HK for the European and North American markets only, VFC don't have to credit or pay fees to Umarex to put trademarks on guns that aren't intended for those markets. In the absence of a relicensor (like Umarex or Cybergun) holding HK licenses in Asia, VFC don't appear to have to credit anyone.

 

Therefore, guns made without Umarex-approved markings have not been made subject to Umarex's license, even if they were made by VFC, and cannot legally be imported into markets where Umarex holds a license (e.g., the US). You can probably get them in by having the retailer efface the markings, though.

[DWells55]

Short answer, no.

 

Long answer, no. Umarex can only grant licenses of intellectual property it has itself been licensed (i.e., they can't sell what they don't have). Umarex can't license VFC's use of the trademarks in markets where Umarex themselves don't have a license from the original intellectual property rights holder (HK, in this instance). Because Umarex appear to have licenses from HK for the European and North American markets only, VFC don't have to credit or pay fees to Umarex to put trademarks on guns that aren't intended for those markets. In the absence of a relicensor (like Umarex or Cybergun) holding HK licenses in Asia, VFC don't appear to have to credit anyone.

 

Therefore, guns made without Umarex-approved markings have not been made subject to Umarex's license, even if they were made by VFC, and cannot legally be imported into markets where Umarex holds a license (e.g., the US). You can probably get them in by having the retailer efface the markings, though.

 

So basically the gist of it is that they pay for the licenses on a per-gun basis rather than a flat fee? And since copyright law in HK/China is borderline nonexistent, they don't bother with the licensing on the guns for those markets or pay a fee, so they just use the authentic trademarks and don't worry about it since there's no law compelling them to.

 

I wonder how US Customs handles seizures and how they determine everything. I assume they just consult a list or something that says what manufacturers are licensed for what, and will probably let the Asia edition through since it'll say VFC on the box. I'd imagine they don't go into a ton of depth, and the not quite licensed gun would slip through.

[PureSilver]

So basically the gist of it is that they pay for the licenses on a per-gun basis rather than a flat fee?

Yes, the license will almost certainly be paid on a per-gun basis; e.g., VFC pays Umarex £25,000 for a license to build 1,000 guns that use HK's intellectual property (copyright in the HK417's design, and trademark in its markings) which has been licensed to Umarex by HK.

 

And since copyright law in HK/China is borderline nonexistent, they don't bother with the licensing on the guns for those markets or pay a fee, so they just use the authentic trademarks and don't worry about it since there's no law compelling them to.

Yes, more or less. I'm actually not sure whether it's the intellectual property regime in HK/China that's weak, or if it's just that enforcing it is difficult. Either way the practical outcome is the same; you can't enforce intellectual property rights in China that you can in most other countries.

 

I wonder how US Customs handles seizures and how they determine everything. I assume they just consult a list or something that says what manufacturers are licensed for what, and will probably let the Asia edition through since it'll say VFC on the box. I'd imagine they don't go into a ton of depth, and the not quite licensed gun would slip through.

US Customs seem to operate on a better-safe-than-sorry basis, and their instructions ('seize anything HK-shaped') will have come from HK, not from Umarex. I would expect that Umarex's shipments into the US come en masse and with attached legal documentation confirming the legality of their entry into the US to avoid this zealous enforcement. If you want your gun to get through, you will need to have its infringing markings effaced, preferably with something very hard to remove to convince the customs agents it's there to stay.

[DWells55]

Thanks for all the information. Both the intellectual property laws and enforcement in China are a joke. Just look up "BMW vs. Shuanghuan" or any of the troubles Apple has had. When the courts do have to make a ruling, it is almost always in favor of nationals and never a foreign company (thus how BMW lost their case).

 

I just noticed that even the Asia editions actually have a "cal 6mm BB" and "Licensed trademark of HK GmbH" written on the dust cover. Maybe I'll take a risk and hope that'll let it slip through. Fake trades on the dust cover aren't really an issue for me seeing as I can just get a real steel replacement cheap.

[Aod]

Yes, more or less. I'm actually not sure whether it's the intellectual property regime in HK/China that's weak, or if it's just that enforcing it is difficult. Either way the practical outcome is the same; you can't enforce intellectual property rights in China that you can in most other countries.

I think the license holders turn a blind-eye towards the sales of their IP in Asia. Look at CZ - ASG is the licensee of their trademarks, and if you buy a KSC CZ75 in Europe, it comes from ASG with moderately mangled trademarks, but in Asia KSC sell CZ75 with non-mangled trademarks. Every such KSC gun has a sticker on the box saying "This product is only for sale and purchase in Asia (except Japan and Taiwan)"

 

The side of every such KSC box also has a "Made in Taiwan" or "Made in Japan" sticker on it, and peeling that sticker off reveals a unique hidden serial number, which starts with HK on mine, which is where I bought the gun.

[PureSilver]

It's an interesting conundrum. In order for ASG, Cybergun, Umarex and the like to turn a blind eye to parallel unlicensed production in Asian markets, the original holders of the IP (HK, CZ, SIG Sauer and the like) presumably also have to turn a blind eye; otherwise, they'd surely start banging heads together at ASG or wherever for letting unlicensed production continue uninhibited. Or perhaps there's some quid pro quo where both the licensors and licensees accept that unlicensed guns are an inevitability in Asian markets (often not including Japan, since that's actually quite tightly controlled) and everyone involved just shrugs it off as a low-profit market and acceptable loss anyway. Without seeing confidential internal agreements I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

[Roland1014]

It's an interesting conundrum. In order for ASG, Cybergun, Umarex and the like to turn a blind eye to parallel unlicensed production in Asian markets, the original holders of the IP (HK, CZ, SIG Sauer and the like) presumably also have to turn a blind eye; otherwise, they'd surely start banging heads together at ASG or wherever for letting unlicensed production continue uninhibited. Or perhaps there's some quid pro quo where both the licensors and licensees accept that unlicensed guns are an inevitability in Asian markets (often not including Japan, since that's actually quite tightly controlled) and everyone involved just shrugs it off as a low-profit market and acceptable loss anyway. Without seeing confidential internal agreements I don't think we'll ever know for sure.

Maybe if they didn't *fruitcage* up the markings, they could just do one version and sell it everywhere. Of course, this would require Umarex and Cybergun not to be *albatrosses*, so we're obviously expecting too much.

[AG1212]

Funny how when you pay extra for the ''officially'' licensed version you get horrible, mangled trades, and when you get the ''illegal'' version you get beautiful, accurate trades. If Umarex and their ilk want a bigger market share, why not allow ''their'' products to be properly licensed? I personally avoid anything to do with Umarex, ASG and cybergun like the plague.

[hitmanNo2]

Because the twats that are in charge of those POS companies don't care about quality, attention to detail e.t.c. Just profit.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Because the twats that are in charge of those POS companies don't care about quality, attention to detail e.t.c. Just profit.

Well, that's true of EVERY mass produced item that isn't heavily regulated to enforce a certain level of "quality". The very act of mass production suggests the OEM's attitude towards the product..which is often, produce a lot for as minimal spend as possible. The only way you will ever get true quality is through the hands of an artisan.

[sandstorm]

Of course, for all we know, the blame could well be in the original firearm manufacturers who demand their licensee uses the mangled logos to mkae the difference clear between 'real gun' and 'toy gun' as seen by the firearm manufacturer...

[hitmanNo2]

I don't buy that.  Most people aren't likely to notice the difference until they're very close, handling it.  You don't need a few paragraphs of /*suitcasey* white trades to tell you it's a replica at that point.

[rusTORK]

I am wrote review about VFC HK417 GBB (Asia Edition), but it's on Russian language. I am tested Google Translated version and it's look pretty readable i guess (but it's translate magazine as shop, lol. In russian it's the same word).

 

http://strikeup.ru/blog/3847.html

 

Check it if your are interested.