Rob15 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 More expensive than I thought..... Quite a bit more expensive than I thought too, the Polarstar comes fitted in a specially machined shell which I'd expect makes up around 50% of the production cost, I'd have thought it'd be closer to the $250 mark given that the amount of machining is going to be quite small compared to the Polarstar. Link to post Share on other sites
Horsem4n Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 in the us its called MAP pricing (Minimum Advertised Price). ultimately, the manufacturer or distributor has no control over how much they sell the items for, but they have to advertise the price they want. its difficult for online sales, because the MAP is what shows up in the cart, so you end up having to go to the shops or send an email to get special pricing if offered. though, i have seen outside of the airsoft market items marked "too low to advertise" with the MAP next to it and you get the retailer's price when you add it to the cart. the only retaliation (over here) the manufacturer can take if a retailer openly advertises below MAP is to refuse to sell product to that retailer. Link to post Share on other sites
jal3 Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 That's the kind of retaliation that is forbidden here. Not that it's really effectively enforced...but yeah. Link to post Share on other sites
Horsem4n Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 well, there are at least some parts of our market that are still free. Link to post Share on other sites
richwuk Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 I don't understand the advantages of using a springless poppet valve, but considering the P* can be picked up for $500 good luck to them trying to get $390 for something that needs the gearbox opened up and hasn't been proven like the P*. Link to post Share on other sites
Gigueand Posted March 12, 2014 Report Share Posted March 12, 2014 The Fusion Engine is $110 more, but will drop in to the AEG shell, while the Wolverine seems like it will involve some custom fitting. Frankly, I'd pick the FE due to how easy it is to install. I can only imagine the headache if the gearbox you were trying to use for the Wolverine was just a tiny bit off-spec. Link to post Share on other sites
aprogressivone Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 They are receiving backlash on their official Facebook page from prospective buyers. The only reason is because of the price. The MSRP is $390. It should be cheaper than what they are selling it for. I understand they are a business and I am sure they will sell them, but I know would personally be more inclined to purchase if this was under $300. This system really is not that expensive to produce. The fact they made this a drop in cylinder that works with any gearbox... they are just asking to get "copied" by an established airsoft manufacturer that can reduce costs by producing in larger volume and selling cheaper. You can get cheap paintball electro markers for like $120-150. This system does not have its own enclosure like a Polarstar. It should be vastly lower than their initial MSRP. However, it is better than nothing. I will not be a buyer, but I look forward to the next company to produce an even cheaper product. The reality is both Polarstar and this are overpriced and get away with it because not enough companies are producing them yet to cut through the BS of this "New Tech" that has been in paintball for years. https://www.facebook.com/421050931253136/photos/a.663738456984381.1073741825.421050931253136/757921887566037/?type=1 I guess the owner was deleting posts because of the comments. Some guy is on there calling him out on the fact this was inspired by the kuba t1000 system and just replaces the spring poppet valve with a spring less design. Link to post Share on other sites
Inq Eisenhorn Posted March 14, 2014 Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 They are receiving backlash on their official Facebook page from prospective buyers. The only reason is because of the price. The MSRP is $390. It should be cheaper than what they are selling it for. I understand they are a business and I am sure they will sell them, but I know would personally be more inclined to purchase if this was under $300. This system really is not that expensive to produce. The fact they made this a drop in cylinder that works with any gearbox... they are just asking to get "copied" by an established airsoft manufacturer that can reduce costs by producing in larger volume and selling cheaper. You can get cheap paintball electro markers for like $120-150. This system does not have its own enclosure like a Polarstar. It should be vastly lower than their initial MSRP. However, it is better than nothing. I will not be a buyer, but I look forward to the next company to produce an even cheaper product. The reality is both Polarstar and this are overpriced and get away with it because not enough companies are producing them yet to cut through the BS of this "New Tech" that has been in paintball for years. https://www.facebook.com/421050931253136/photos/a.663738456984381.1073741825.421050931253136/757921887566037/?type=1 I guess the owner was deleting posts because of the comments. Some guy is on there calling him out on the fact this was inspired by the kuba t1000 system and just replaces the spring poppet valve with a spring less design. Always makes me laugh when people talk about what something SHOULD / SHOULDN'T cost, as if they have a first hand idea of the companies financial structure and outgoings. I think what you really want to say, is you're upset that it costs what it does because you HOPED it would be cheaper... The other side of this, ask yourself why more mainstream companies haven't jumped on this system, thereby creating competition and therefore bringing the cost of ownership down? Could it be because, inspite of the interwebs massive overhype of HPA systems, in the real world, players don't give a fat hairy monkeys *albatross* about it and are content to use GIM and AEG solutions? Let's draw a comparison, how long did it take for the first "real" Systema clones to come out? How many years after Systema was first launched? When Systema created its system everybody (non supporters of course) couldn't wait to talk about how overpriced the system is, and how some China outfit would sink their ship, blah blah, blah.....well, looki here? Not one, but two, China outfits have tried to do exactly that....and failed. Grudgingly giving birth to the consideration that maybe, just maybe, you get what you pay for. Link to post Share on other sites
aprogressivone Posted March 14, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 14, 2014 Always makes me laugh when people talk about what something SHOULD / SHOULDN'T cost, as if they have a first hand idea of the companies financial structure and outgoings. I think what you really want to say, is you're upset that it costs what it does because you HOPED it would be cheaper... The other side of this, ask yourself why more mainstream companies haven't jumped on this system, thereby creating competition and therefore bringing the cost of ownership down? Could it be because, inspite of the interwebs massive overhype of HPA systems, in the real world, players don't give a fat hairy monkeys *albatross* about it and are content to use GIM and AEG solutions? Let's draw a comparison, how long did it take for the first "real" Systema clones to come out? How many years after Systema was first launched? When Systema created its system everybody (non supporters of course) couldn't wait to talk about how overpriced the system is, and how some China outfit would sink their ship, blah blah, blah.....well, looki here? Not one, but two, China outfits have tried to do exactly that....and failed. Grudgingly giving birth to the consideration that maybe, just maybe, you get what you pay for. You got me there and are 100% right. I was hoping it would be cheaper. I tried stating that I understand they are a business so it is what it is. I probably won't be a customer, but plenty of other people will still buy it in droves. Hey if I had a company and could sell products for way more than it's worth(Apple products for example) I would too. LOL. But also as a consumer, I can "be that guy" who complains on message boards about the price LOL. To answer your other question as far as why HPA is not more popular. It is my opinion that since airsoft guns are manufactured in one part of the world for the most part, Asia, we have to accept what they give us. I personally think mass produced Daytonagun styles would be awesome, but they won't give us that either. Its funny because most people say daytonaguns can take more abuse than the common GBBR GIM design. It has taken two companies outside of Asia (Polarstar, Wolverine) to give us electro HPA options that can be readily purchased, and one other company outside of Asia(Tippmann) to produce a mechanical gas driven gun with GIM or remote line option. As far as PTW clones go, the PTW was something 100% new and has a way more complicated system than electro pneumatic guns. This is literally just paintball technology that has been around for years. I don't see how they could mess it up LOL, but maybe they could? Link to post Share on other sites
hawaiianjuggernaut Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 GIM makes sense, hell, even a Daytonagun makes sense, because they offer you something that an AEG doesn't, but the HPA set-ups just seem like a solution to a problem that was solved a long time ago. GIM? Honestly I think that this is a good piece of new tech. The installation looks a little bit trickier than a simple drop in P* box, but if the price point is significantly less, it would sell. $390 seems ridiculous tbh. Electronics and the actual HPA components cost them what, 60 at most, +20 for assembly? Drop it to 250 and I'd be a buyer. There seems to be less control/options in regards to FCU complexity; Polarstar's FCUs also have LiPo protection built in. If Wolverine can offer a product that has the same base reliability of a less-moving-part system, I would definitely look into a purchase. The debate of the GBBR/AEG/HPA will always exist, and there will always be naysayers to each respective type of airsoft gun, but they all shoot bbs. People will flock to what is popular and most comfortable to them, and there isnt a need to ridicule other "types" of guns, and the players who use them. Link to post Share on other sites
Inq Eisenhorn Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Agreed. I didn't equate questioning the "logic" of one system over another as ridicule of any system or its users. Link to post Share on other sites
jal3 Posted May 20, 2014 Report Share Posted May 20, 2014 Maybe it IS cheaper...B2B! Polarstar Fusion Engine has very bad profit margins, i've heard, which is why dealers are afraid to carry it. It just does not make financially sense. If the WA product is way cheaper to buy, it will have better profit margin, and therefor a better penetration to markets otherwise barred from this product. This is a win win for customers and dealers both. Link to post Share on other sites
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