TOKYO MARUI Full Metal Gas Blowback Rifle M4A1 MWS is comming

[TheFull9]

Potentially it could be utter balls and explode in your face, we won't know until it comes out.  But right now every system out there for GBB M4s is almost exactly the same.  WA, WE, KJW, KWA, GHK... the way the bits inside the BCG and the lower receiver work are slaved to the RS and are all incredibly similar to one another.  This design is the first I've seen where the area the 'bolt' sits in looks significantly different and we've got no details about the magazine or the lower internals yet (apart from those small parts sticking up from the lower visible in some images which are again quite different from the norm).

 

It's evident the enlarged space in the nozzle is catering to a market where only 144a and equivalents are available, it fits in perfectly with all their new pistol designs.  The older handguns with the smaller expansion chambers in the nozzle have historically been fine with propane, but since the 5-7 (I think?) when they changed things around problems have started to occur a bit more frequently with the western market.  I think it's certainly possible we'll see issues similar to the MP7's and the newer line of pistols with this M4 when run on green/propane.  Not necessarily broken nozzles or the same things seen before, but I can imagine there might be some part/s that'll wear out very quickly with higher pressure gas.  Obviously this remains to be seen until people actually start using the things and it'll most likely be highly reliable on 144a, but I'm not aware of a common/easily available source of large quantites of duster pressure gas in the UK personally, which is what you'll need to run a GBBr without spending a bloody fortune on cans of over-priced 'airsoft' gas (which is the very reason propane is so popular).

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Somehow more refined? The design of WA M4 magazines alone is the worst I've ever seen, worse than the original WE M4 magazines which at least were easy to work on and the VFC M4 magazines. If TM don't design their magazines in an idiotic way, which I doubt they have then imo they'll be way ahead of the WA before doing anything else.

 

Their gas in may system will probably resemble their gas in mag system from their pistols and SMGs in some way more than anyone elses gas system, if that's the case I don't think you can really call it a 'copy'.

 

 

I dont think you can say that when not muvh is known about the system.......

Like I said, pick your poison....

[Rob15]

I'd be surprised to see anything even remotely innovative in this GBBR design, based on what's already been said.

That really depends what you call 'innovative', I'd expect it to take proven designs/features from the rest of their product range but stuck in an M4 body in which case I'd agree it probably won't be particually innovative, what I am expecting is less focus on having internals looking like a real M4 and more focus on performance, efficiency and reliability (with the gases and conditions it's designed for) leading to less realistic internals.

 

Really you can often only judge innovation in airsoft on the internals of the gun, externals are generally just copies of an existing design what with being replicas so no innovation there, internally most guns have internals that are largely derived from or just copied from something TM designed in the first place so I think it is fair to say TM are one of, if not the most innovative airsoft gun manufacturer.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

That really depends what you call 'innovative', I'd expect it to take proven designs/features from the rest of their product range but stuck in an M4 body in which case I'd agree it probably won't be particually innovative, what I am expecting is less focus on having internals looking like a real M4 and more focus on performance, efficiency and reliability (with the gases and conditions it's designed for) leading to less realistic internals.

 

Really you can often only judge innovation in airsoft on the internals of the gun, externals are generally just copies of an existing design what with being replicas so no innovation there, internally most guns have internals that are largely derived if not just a copy of something TM designed in the first place so I think it is fair to say TM are one of, if not the most innovative airsoft gun manufacturer.

Well, I guess we'll see. If TM have taken a massive departure from the WA ideal of 'realistic' internals (and I do count WE and KJW in that group), then perhaps this will be a different contender on the GBBR market....although I found CKinnerley's statement above to be worth watching. If the statement is correct, then I would give TM 10/10 for innovation, 0/10 for catering for its global clients.....oh....that's right, TM doesn't have any global clients.....so many unloved fans..

 

Still, I'm sure a whole new hobby will spring up with aftermarket manufacturers making parts that correct the TM injustice, and allow buyers to literally gut the gun of anything TM and make it usable in their various parts of the world.

 

Just a parting thought though, how much of a TM can you strip out.....and still call it a TM?

[NeoVeNoM]

I can say that....its just negative speculation as opposed to the rampant positive speculation TM is nearly always greeted with....pick your poison.

 

I'd be surprised to see anything even remotely innovative in this GBBR design, based on what's already been said. And while the tyre may count as an innovation with respect to the wheel, manufacturer A choosing a tyre material compound different to manufacturer B is much less of an innovation.....wouldn't you agree?

Actually, no but then again, I doubt you know anything about tyre engineering.

[renegadecow]

I'm not aware of a common/easily available source of large quantites of duster pressure gas in the UK personally, which is what you'll need to run a GBBr without spending a bloody fortune on cans of over-priced 'airsoft' gas (which is the very reason propane is so popular).

Assuming it won't be the case of exploding mags like first gen WE, you can always restrict flow from the mag or by the valve knocker giving you near 134a performance using cheaper propane.

 

edit:

Also, if you take a time machine into the late 80s - early 90s you'll find some pretty neat TM GBBRs, some even with shell ejecting features. Can't knock them for copying WA on that.

[TheFull9]

It could be worse ckinnerly, you could be on airsoftforum where the most insightful analysis of Tokyo Marui is that they are "overpriced plastic pieces of ###### that don't even shoot 400 fps"

 

I've looked on there maybe 2-3 times, I like to see as much of the different reviews and pictures people put up online as possible, just get more info and more content to view.  Wasn't terribly pulled in by those initial inspections truth be told, didn't seem that great of a place to hang out.  I can get why Marui internals wouldn't appeal in the US, in Europe we're pretty much alright as limits are slightly higher than Japan but generally not enough that a good hop unit won't equalise things more than adequately.  But then from what I can gather an unfortunate proportion of US players seem to just think FPS is king over everything, set that idea and bit the ignorance-blinkers on, which is a shame.  Though most CQB sites are limited to 350?  ~300 is perfectly adequate in that environment, because that's exactly what we have here.  Again if everyone else has 400 outdoors then I'd go for something like a KWA, but it sounds like many people are missing a lot of info.

 

Assuming it won't be the case of exploding mags like first gen WE, you can always restrict flow from the mag or by the valve knocker giving you near 134a performance using cheaper propane.

 

edit:

Also, if you take a time machine into the late 80s - early 90s you'll find some pretty neat TM GBBRs, some even with shell ejecting features. Can't knock them for copying WA on that.

 

Never heard of that before to be honest, I know there was some filing down of the 'firing pin' going on with the MP7 but I've never head of restricting the flow valves.  That would actually appeal to me hugely, being able to run the cheap gas while giving the gun the pressure it's designed to work just-right on would be a perfect setup.  Genuinely surprised by that, though I can't help but wonder why it's not a more common concept?  Not questioning that it can be done, just wondering.

 

I'd imagine this M4 is going to put out around 300-320 on duster pressure which would be a fantastic CQB gun.  Given the gas efficiency it'll (hopefully) have, good hop and internals with impressive longevity I could just invest in another system's worth of mags... that'd depend on a fair few things coming together though.  Definitely need more info to come in yet.

[Stuey]

Snoopy filed his MP7's firing pin which IIRC worked to lower the power but ruined his full auto. I think putting a weaker hammer spring in would be a better plan, or restricting the mags (but then you have to mod every mag).

[renegadecow]

The process is a bit tedious as it involves a lot of trial and error and in the case of shortening the knocker, will vary from model to model. From Snoopy's experience with his MP7 he had to remove a significant amount (could be the same for rifles or similar guns with larger nozzle volumes) while on pistols it only takes under 0.5mm.

 

edit:

A softer hammer spring will only work to reduce muzzle energy. If the gun has a knocker delay, it will lock at the same distance allowing for full volume to the BBU. So if the problem lies with too much recoil on higher pressures killing the gun, changing the hammer spring doesn't help much.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Actually, no but then again, I doubt you know anything about tyre engineering.

And so it begins.....every time someone dares say anything remotely negative about TM the fan boys get personal. As for your doubt, you'd be surprised what I know.....

[Rob15]

Never heard of that before to be honest, I know there was some filing down of the 'firing pin' going on with the MP7 but I've never head of restricting the flow valves.

I think putting a weaker hammer spring in would be a better plan, or restricting the mags (but then you have to mod every mag).

Old idea really, Airsoft Innovations did it a long time ago for WA pistol mags, must have been at least 10 years ago.

 

http://www.airsoftatlanta.com/Airsoft-Innovations-Flow-Restrictor-for-WA-pistol-p/05216.htm

 

If I still did laser cut parts I'd look to do something like that for this GBBr the moment it comes out, but I don't anymore A part like that wouldn't cost much to produce and fit to a pile of mags once the R&D was done though.

[Habakure]

I just like the prospect of an ootb uk site safe gbb M4. If of course using 144a with this new offering, equates to 328fps or less. Didn't TM make a bit of a factory recall on one of their products (how many airsoft manufacturers do that)?

 

About tires. Yes innovation does exist. Just check out formula one and how a certain manufacturer is able to create a tire that will degrade at 'x' miles. We're as other manufacturers couldn't achieve that (even though it did cause a big stink, with the drivers and wether the manufacturer, was making F1 less safe, on purpose).

[Stuey]

The process is a bit tedious as it involves a lot of trial and error and in the case of shortening the knocker, will vary from model to model. From Snoopy's experience with his MP7 he had to remove a significant amount (could be the same for rifles or similar guns with larger nozzle volumes) while on pistols it only takes under 0.5mm.

 

edit:

A softer hammer spring will only work to reduce muzzle energy. If the gun has a knocker delay, it will lock at the same distance allowing for full volume to the BBU. So if the problem lies with too much recoil on higher pressures killing the gun, changing the hammer spring doesn't help much.

 

OK so the valve lock may be unchanged, but you said yourself (in some other thread) that the bolt continues to move back after the valve lock disengages and the valve closes. So with a weaker spring wouldn't the gas flow be less, giving less muzzle energy and a slower recoil (and therefore a lower cyclic rate)?

 

How does shortening the valve knocker work?

[renegadecow]

The bolt will continue to move back from whatever gas is already injected in the nozzle, yes. But that time between the valve is kept open by the delayer will dictate just how much is put in which will also affect how much more forceful the bolt is thrown back. By shortening the valve knocker the amount the valve is opened is also limited so you restrict how much gas is pumped in for the entire cycle from muzzle output to blow back mimicking the use of a lower pressure gas. There are however some guns that don't have a valve delay like the G5 and am unsure how modifying the knocker will affect it.

[Stuey]

What are you calling the delayer? I'm not sure we're on the same page here, all I know is on the GBBs I've handled the valve is locked open when it's first struck by the knocker, and allowed to close when a little bump on the bottom of the slide/bolt hits the disengager. Is that the same as what you're describing? Seems to fit, thing with shortening the knocker makes sense too.

 

So does that mean the valve always lock open at a certain amount, dictated by the geometry of the valve knocker and lock components? Therefore the strength of the hammer spring doesn't affect the amount of gas released. Or does it not work like that? I should open my P226 and study the trigger mechanism in detail really.

 

So the G5 doesn't have a valve lock at all? So the duration and strength of the gas flow is dependant on the valve itself and the hammer spring?

[renegadecow]

Yes, the delayer and the disengager/disconnect are the same thing. I just like to call it that to keep from confusing with the other disconnect related to the sear/hammer.

The amount the valve is opened is fixed by however far the knocker/lock is able to keep it open. But the hammer tension still affects the rate (impulse) at which it is opened which does affect muzzle output for the most part. Think of it like turning a faucet open slowly vs quickly. The rate will affect how big a splash you get in the sink, but regardless of this, if the faucet is held open by the same amount, the amount of water going through will be roughly the same. That initial splash is what will drive the bb and when the floating valve closes, directs the rest into the BBU.

The G5 doesn't have the valve lock/delayer. It's just the hammer doing all the work and quite frankly am unsure how they make the bolt cycle consistently whereas on a WA system you can have problems if that part (on the mag) isn't working very well. Stranger still is how G5 mags will work fine on WA spec guns. 

[Leon Kennedy]

No no no no no this cannot happen.

 

I have priorities! I have real-life things I have to pay for, but I want it so bad!

[NeoVeNoM]

And so it begins.....every time someone dares say anything remotely negative about TM the fan boys get personal. As for your doubt, you'd be surprised what I know.....

And so it begins ... every time someone disagrees with your comparison, you take it personal.

[Habakure]

What would be interesting, if TM has plans to release a full length M16 and how the length of the inner barrel might effect the fps (cut the inner barrel and you reduce fps on most GBBR). Though they'll probably just make sure the inner barrel doesn't take the fps over the 328 fps.

 

Blooming iPhone. I wanted to put 'were' not 'we're' (I thought you were asleep. Instead of; we're a sleep).

[hitmanNo2]

Regarding the larger nozzle volume.  Could an after market company just make a nozzle with thicker walls thereby reducing the internal volume to make it more suitable for green or is it not that simple?

[Stuey]

Yes, the delayer and the disengager/disconnect are the same thing. I just like to call it that to keep from confusing with the other disconnect related to the sear/hammer.

The amount the valve is opened is fixed by however far the knocker/lock is able to keep it open. But the hammer tension still affects the rate (impulse) at which it is opened which does affect muzzle output for the most part. Think of it like turning a faucet open slowly vs quickly. The rate will affect how big a splash you get in the sink, but regardless of this, if the faucet is held open by the same amount, the amount of water going through will be roughly the same. That initial splash is what will drive the bb and when the floating valve closes, directs the rest into the BBU.

The G5 doesn't have the valve lock/delayer. It's just the hammer doing all the work and quite frankly am unsure how they make the bolt cycle consistently whereas on a WA system you can have problems if that part (on the mag) isn't working very well. Stranger still is how G5 mags will work fine on WA spec guns. 

 

Fair enough,confusing technical terms is definitely something we don't need...

 

I see, I was mulling this over last night (instead of revising for finals, it's engineering right?) and that's the conclusion I came to. The other thought I had is that you can't really decrease recoil power by weakening the hammer spring because as long as its strong enough to lock the valve open you're always going to get about the same amount of gas out. Which I think is what you were saying? And if the spring isn't strong enough to lock it open then you're going to have all sorts of problems with cycling. But you can alter the BB energy with the spring because that's determined largely by the very start of the gas flow so how fast the flow starts will affect it. Nice! (I'll get there with this GBB thing eventually)

 

Yeah my flatmate had a G5 and I can attest to its consistency and reliability - magic GHK engineering?

 

 

Regarding the larger nozzle volume.  Could an after market company just make a nozzle with thicker walls thereby reducing the internal volume to make it more suitable for green or is it not that simple?

 

It depends if the piston head is attached to the bolt, like on all of TM's previous GBBs or if the piston head is part of the nozzle like most GBB rifles I've seen. If the former then it would be relatively simple to replace the nozzle and piston head. If the latter, it might require a new bolt with a smaller expansion chamber as well as a new nozzle.

[renegadecow]

As far as I'm concerned the GHK G5 uses pretty serious voodoo magic.

 

Changing nozzle diameters could be tricky as Stuey said mainly as it needs an equally smaller piston lid/cup. In the case of guns using magna style nozzles that means a completely smaller BBU/bolt too or at least a sleeve. However it is possible (in theory at least) to reduce the nozzle's stroke in an effort to reduce volume and recoil while maintaining the same muzzle output.

[kimkafwan]

Nobody curious about hopup?

 

[Habakure]

I think it's fair to say most folk are curious about all of it, not just the hop-up.

[TheFull9]

If that picture is correct to the gun it looks like you just lock the working parts back and adjust the large wheel by hand to change the amount of hop.  Which is an improvement on most of the current options.

 

There's a couple of types of units around I've seen for WA systems but the standard WOC one requires a handguard with an easily removable lower quadrant.. or just setting it once and hoping real hard you get it right before assembling the forend.  The LM4's alright, long as you've got the tool it's not too bad to make adjustments by locking back the BCG, but it's always preferable to have a setup that doesn't need a tool.  Not sure how KJW and WE work, but if you can make adjustments by hand as quick and easy as that diagram implies it'll be a good system.