ICS 3 NEW RIFLES !

[icsbbairsoft]

2015 ICS 3 new airsoft rifles are released together !!

CXP-APE
http://www.icsbb.com/web_e/html/06_n...w.aspx?num=387

CXP-HOG
http://www.icsbb.com/web_e/html/06_n...w.aspx?num=385

M1 Garand 70th Anniversary WWII Limited Edition
http://www.icsbb.com/web_e/html/06_n...w.aspx?num=389

 

[harborne blue]

Oh wow (not):

 

M4 variant

M4 variant

M4 variant

 

And they were all in the catalogue released several weeks ago... 

[swatti]

Split gearbox ACR!

 

Very tempting.

[Skarclaw]

Oh wow (not):

 

M4 variant

M4 variant

M4 variant

 

And they were all in the catalogue released several weeks ago... 

 

Bit unfair! Yes the middle one is a new RAS that comes with an AEG but the top is a ACR, the bottom is a WW2 rifle. 

[TheFull9]

A truly classic 'another m4' post.

 

The ACR platform shares almost nothing in common with the AR-15.  I guess if you conclude that the AR arose following the M14 which arose following the Garand then you can say the M16 and M1 are connected...

[paranoiddroid]

Shame that is an 8mm grand and therefore pretty much unusabLe for me. It is pretty though

[Horsem4n]

oh *suitcase*, your right. well that sucks. i was going to buy it if it was a 6mm.

[paranoiddroid]

It makes no sense for it to be in 8mm only when they make a 6mm.

[Horsem4n]

Well, it looks the same on the inside escept for a few proprietary and upgraded parts. But it looks like it can be converted to 6mm with the swap of a hopup, inner barrel and nozzle.

 

But only if it comes out under $500 will I consider it.

 

Also, mr ICS rep, my issue with the 8mm is not performance, I'm sure it performes great and has even more potential. But my issue is that 8mm replicas are banned in most places and events I play at.

 

I want to be able to use it and look like the most gaudy *albatross* at a milsim game.

 

But I might just consider getting the 6mm version gold plated.

[NightFury]

I'm not sure where the 8mm is better, but last time I checked 6mm had better trajectory.

[Horsem4n]

With enough energy and weight, 8mm performs better than 6mm. But were talking about the 3-5j territory.

[paranoiddroid]

In my experience Allot of sites aren't set up to chronograph 8mm weapons and due to the extra weight of rounds isn't energy creep an issue?

 

As a calibre for longer range shooting I think it does have its merits but there has been so much more r&d on 6mm that most 8mm guns I have seen are outdated in terms of hopup.

 

Also in my very limited experience 8mm use in cqb causes accusations of hot guns due to the dramatic difference in how it feels to the player due to the larger heavier bb.

 

If it is easily converted does anyone know if you would lose the warranty for doing so?

[NightFury]

With enough energy and weight, 8mm performs better than 6mm. But were talking about the 3-5j territory.

That's what I was thinking. And for that length of barrel the amount of cylinder volume would have to be significantly bigger. If the barrel length is 509mm then on a 6mm there's barely enough air to fire .2s

[swatti]

QUESTION: 

 

Why would 8mm gun be banned if it were under FPS-limits? 

[NeoVeNoM]

QUESTION: 

 

Why would 8mm gun be banned if it were under FPS-limits? 

This is merely calculated based on an FPS max of 350.

Because .20gr 6mm @ 350fps is 1.14Joules

.48gr 8mm @ 350fps is about 2.72 Joules

 

So yes, ouch.

 

to have the same amount of joules for your 8mm bb as 6mm, it should be travelling at about 225FPS.

2.27Joules is in the 550FPS range on .20gr bb's.

[Zombie00]

With enough energy and weight, 8mm performs better than 6mm. But were talking about the 3-5j territory.

 

8mm bbs available are usually less dense than 6mm regular heavy-weight options. You will get better performance with 6mm (as long as you limit yourself to what's available in the Airsoft market, of course).

 

 

This is merely calculated based on an FPS max of 350.

Because .20gr 6mm @ 350fps is 1.14Joules

.48gr 8mm @ 350fps is about 2.72 Joules

 

So yes, ouch.

 

to have the same amount of joules for your 8mm bb as 6mm, it should be travelling at about 225FPS.

2.27Joules is in the 550FPS range on .20gr bb's.

 

That would be like comparing 6mm .2 bbs at 350 FPS vs 6mm .3 bbs at 350 FPS, not fair by any mean, the most common low-weight 8mm bb is .27. Still, even if you equate the joules, the way an 8mm bb dissipates the energy into the target isn't the same as 6mm bb, From a safety point of view, you could have a more lax limit for 8mm. As an example -to take with a rather big pinch of salt- a .68 inches paintball at 300FPS has about 13 joules of energy, that's the most common muzzle velocity limit around the globe and, even when playing with rubberballs that don't burst upon impact, no have had major injuries from them.

It would be interesting to see a proper FPS equivalency table and get high density 8mm bbs to see how they perform, I'm guessing the regular hop-up system with one little bump wouldn't be fit for the task of imparting the appropriate amount of back-spin to the larger ball, but that's just a guess.

[paranoiddroid]

Banned generally because of the problems with chronoing them plus the question of what limit is safe.

 

An 8mm at 1j with a .48 (only weigh iv ever seen on sale anywhere) will hurt more than a 1j 6mm .2 because of the increase in weight and the size increas meaning the impact is felt over a wider area

[TheFull9]

That's possible.. but also contradictory to what Zombie00 said and given the paintball example I'd say he's probably right from my experience of paintball, even when they don't burst they're not hugely worse than a 6mm bb generally and have comparatively large amounts of energy behind them.  A larger projectile will indeed dissipate its' energy over a larger area, which should result in less of a sharp pain I'd have thought.

[RSM]

Unless I'm mistaken, 8mm should technically hurt less if you assume that the energy on impact is 1J precisely because the surface area over which energy is transferred is larger, less energy makes it's way to lower levels of skin so the red mark left behind might be large, but there's less lingering stinging pain.

 

To be utterly pedantic - an 8mm projectile fired at 1J and hitting backside at 10ft will carry less KE than a 6mm projective fired at 6mm due to increased drag effect on the 8mm round. 8mm only gets 'unsafe' when you're getting pointblank with them.

 

I once had an 8mm Marushin Detonics. On Green. With .48s. On J conversion from FPS it was under site limits of 1.14, but if you got someone at CQ ranges on tight clothing (thigh, back. butt) the way people recoiled/twitched from the point of impact was as if you were in an 80s action movie where a .45 makes your opponent explode into a shower of sparks while their soul evaporates.

[NeoVeNoM]

I can state that what zombie00 is saying is half true.

 

I started merely out of the basis of same muzzle velocity.

Hence why I also mentioned the following.

 

to have the same amount of joules for your 8mm bb as 6mm, it should be travelling at about 225FPS.

2.27Joules is in the 550FPS range on .20gr bb's.

 

 

Paintball? yes, because it looses it KE on impact due to not being strong in structure.

But a rubber ball of the same size? From my own experience, I can guarantee that it hurts a hole lot.

 

Why would police use it in riot control to begin with?

It's like saying a bean bag is ineffective.

[TheFull9]

As I mentioned, paintballs quite often don't break on impact (unless you're referring to them flexing before rebounding?).  Those particular hits hurt plenty, but nothing massively more than some airsoft hits I've taken in the gut in CQB.

[Zombie00]

I can state that what zombie00 is saying is half true.

 

I started merely out of the basis of same muzzle velocity.

Hence why I also mentioned the following.

 

 

 

Paintball? yes, because it looses it KE on impact due to not being strong in structure.

But a rubber ball of the same size? From my own experience, I can guarantee that it hurts a hole lot.

 

Why would police use it in riot control to begin with?

It's like saying a bean bag is ineffective.

 

Well, I said the comparison was unfair because same muzzle velocity with a heavier projectile=more joules. Nothing wrong with what I said there.

Let's put it this way, which would hurt the most? A 0.2 grams 6mm bb at 300FPS or a 0.2 8mm bb at 300FPS? The difference in size is only 2mm, but that's 30% more surface to transfer the energy of the projectile into the target.

 

On the subject of rubber balls, things aren't standardized at all. You may find steel bearings with a thick coat of natural rubber/polyethylene mix, which is way heavier than any paintball/rubberball used for sporting propose. Alternatively, you may have more human cops using only polyurethane rubber (some of the many blends), the density is much lower than the previous ball, but the surface durometer is considerably higher, almost 50% more in some cases, a harder material won't flex as much, the projectile won't deform and the energy will be transferred more directly to the target.

For whatever it is worth, I'd also like to mention that the police usually run their paintless-paintball guns at a higher muzzle velocity (at least here in Argentina).

 

Reballs (the most popular brand of re-usable rubber balls for paintball markers) are made out some soft rubber (could be silicone rubber as they suggest not lubricating them and they still won't get stocked even in the most primitive hoppers). The hardness is much lower than any police rubber ball that I've seen and the weight is about the same as any other paintball. So, once again, not a fair comparison.

[jal3]

Person who has played tournament paintball/reball here.

 

Both paintballs and reballs hurt a lot more than airsoft.

Getting shot over your hand at even 10-15 meters feels like getting smashed full on with a bambus stick, and will leave your hand numb and shaking.

[NeoVeNoM]

. So, once again, not a fair comparison.

 

that's the thing, it was not about fair comparison, The original question was only about the FPS limit.

 

QUESTION: 

 

Why would 8mm gun be banned if it were under FPS-limits?

 

It's already hard enough getting everyone to FPS test with the same bb weight, let alone size.

 

Anyways, I will be fiddling these three at IWA, especially the APE.

[DrAlexanderTobacco]

Person who has played tournament paintball/reball here.

 

Both paintballs and reballs hurt a lot more than airsoft.

Getting shot over your hand at even 10-15 meters feels like getting smashed full on with a bambus stick, and will leave your hand numb and shaking.

When I was 12, I got shot from 5 meters away to the back of the head with a paintball - genuinely thought I was dead for a moment. Was knocked straight out.