The most Advanced Airsoft Grenade in the World!

[Feyd]

I love the idea, but I do have a question as to the funding aspect, the page is set up so as the creator gets all the money no matter the target reached... I was under the impression that stuff like this would have a minimum order from the factory, what happens if you don't reach this total?

Does everyone who orders a grenade (pledge perk I know!) now get one no matter what total funding is reached? What's the timeline on this?

That said, if this comes off I'd have 4! (bank manager permitting!)

 

Ignore the timeline question, just reread it (saw this online yesterday and the info wasn't present)

[Skarclaw]

I think people have to "learn" to take their hits when it comes to pyros, which I think most players in the UK are good at (for most sites). The gas BB nades just don't work very well, and they don't add the theatrical quality to the game neither, I don't think BBs are really that relevant to this thread considering the devs have ruled it out from day one and it would require a fundamental redesign of the whole thing to introduce it. 

 

You may recall Swatti as the bloke that that wasn't going to buy the TM 417 on the basis it was EBB not a standard GB. Track record. 

[Mike 8-{>]

I love the idea, but I do have a question as to the funding aspect, the page is set up so as the creator gets all the money no matter the target reached... I was under the impression that stuff like this would have a minimum order from the factory, what happens if you don't reach this total?

Does everyone who orders a grenade (pledge perk I know!) now get one no matter what total funding is reached? 

 

I asked the same question direct through the indiegogo site. Awaiting a reply.....

 

Just had an email... should get a full answer after lunch... I gather they are really busy due to the huge amount of interest this has generated.

[bettyblue84]

From other forum.

 

When it gets to 100% they'de release the funds in either case. The only difference is it can can fall short of 100% in flexible and they still release funds.. Image it's 98% and then they don't release it when actually I could make 80 grenades and it's still viable. 

The point is, even with Fixed, I get the funds and don't have to supply anything. But of course the whole point here is to make this product even better than it already is and make this a desirable product so that all the resellers want to stock it!

 

Have to accept that they might not be able to change it, if this is the case (and they haven't got back to me yet) then when it gets to 100% then it doesn't make any difference which it is. Fixed or Flexible as past that point they release funds at the 60 day point.

So just wait until it gets to 100% if you are concerned, if it falls short then wait until the product released. 11% already at day 1.

 

Michele, May 5, 16:38:

Hi MOLYNEUX ADVANCED SYSTEMS,

 

Thanks for reaching out to us. Unfortunately, once a campaign has gone live and raised any amount of funds, we're not able to change the campaign's funding structure. This is because we use different payment processing systems for contributions made via flexible funding versus those made via fixed funding.

However, if you'd like to launch a new campaign with the Flexible Funding structure, you are welcome to do so. You can change the text in your Fixed campaign to indicate you are no longer raising funds, and once your campaign hits its deadline all of your contributors will be refunded.

Thanks for your understanding, and please let me know if you have any further questions.

 

Cheers,

 

Michele
Customer Happiness
Indiegogo (www.indiegogo.com)

 

I'm sure they mean Fixed but never mind, it's not able to be changed and it's been shared so many times that I don't want to loose the link.

[Mike 8-{>]

I think the concern isn't quite what is answered there. I think the concern is if, at 60 days, funding is only 50% does it go ahead? The campaign gets all the money pledged. If the manufacturing cost is based on making a batch of 100 units (which it would seem to be) then if you only get funding for 50 units isn't the price likely to go up? From my experience in prototype manufacture at this scale an engineering company will likely quote you X for 100 off but also X for 50 off as tooling and setup are the majority of the expense. So if you only end up 50% funded who covers the 50% shortfall in unit cost? Can they deliver the promised product at the promised price at say 75% funding not 98%?

 

That said it looks likely that they will get 100% funded given they seem to be doing really well so far.

[Lord Vader]

Unfortunately, wherever I played BFGs were considered as flashbangs and didn't have any hit rules. Now it's even worse, as basically all pyros and banging grenades are banned everywhere. So a decent BB greande would be more usefull to me and players here. The Tornado impact grenades do work very well (most of the time) but hit very weak indeed and have no satisfying sound. 

 

For a simple BFG design this grenade seems a little gimmicky to me. From my experiemnce my simple mechanical original BFG works very well and is quite fast to reload. Adding electronics just to set a custom timer doesn't really seem worth it to me, but if it's really tough enough to withstand the stress (which I find hard to believe honestly) and especially at that price it's not the worst thing either.

 

What really looks interesting though is the Cyalume HG1 training grenade, I guess this is for military only? Some powder/smoke effect might be a great compromise to replace BBs and still be considered a frag grenade in my area. Also the bang shouldn't be too loud to not be a health risk. The 9mm blanks are already borderline, not a big deal outside, but if one gets off at your feets in a very small room, it IS going to hurt. When this happend to another player from my grenade, I could hear he was in pain and he said his ears were ringing. Since then I never used them indoors anymore and now they are banned everywhere anyways.

Sure you could use earprotection (comtac, sordin, etc.) but I don't see this becoming the norm anytime soon and I think UK is pretty much the only country in the EU where BFGs are used anyways.

 

 

What would really be perfect was a tornado (with or without timer) that has a bit more power and an audible but moderate bang. Like a CO2 version of it. Or something that at least creates a big dustcould instead of throwing BBs.

[Mike 8-{>]

Got a response to my enquiries from the guy behind this.... 

Lee:
Hi Mike,Sorry for the delay, I've been inundated with suppliers requesting dates and prices. This of course is a good thing.In answer to your questions, see below.

Me:
Hi, This looks really interesting. Could I ask a few questions?

Q1) Is the individually coded charger a good idea? Presuming it is a USB charger what happens if you have more than 1 grenade? Do you have to have loads of chargers and keep track of which charger goes with which grenade? What happens if the charger dies and you go out of business or it doesn't get past the prototyping stage? Dead charger = dead grenade.

Lee:
A1) The charger Is needed for updates, we can make it so the charger will work with all your serial numbers.If we go out of business than you won't be able to get grenade parts either.

Me:
Q2) I can understand the thinking that it is a good idea to secure it against theft but I think most folks will rather be able to charge it easily than be tied to a fancy custom charger.

Lee:
A2) We are going to allow the user to disable the secure charge feature on their grenade. 

Me:
Q3) What are the “proprietary preloads” if they are pyro what might they be or is that TBD ? Are they legal? CE marked? Classified and authorised with the HSE?

Lee:
A3) We are working with Leisure Insure and our Site on the pyro, we can CE test and mark it once we have finalised the grenade design.

Me:
Q4) And on a more positive… idea/feature/suggestion front. Stick a light sensor/LDR in the transparent top. Then you could use it as light triggered booby trap. e.g. Hide it in a hole under something so it is in the dark. Lift the covering object, sees daylight BANG. or in indoor/CQB.. stand it in dark room. OPFOR comes in with torch on, light hits device. BANG Simple and cheap to implement. Depending on micro controller just need the light sensor hooked up to an AD pin and a bit more code 

Lee:
A4) It already has this, you just aim the IR trip beam at anything that will move and it will go off! 

Me:
Q5) Sorry for all the questions. I note that this project is “Flexible Funding” I have backed some Kickstarter campaigns and they only take the money if the project gets fully backed. I gather that Flexible funding means that you get all the money from the backers regardless of whether or not you meet your 5K target. In which case if I back it and you don't get the 5K target do I still get the hardware or does the projected price depend on you having orders for around 100 units? 50 per unit +P&P?

Lee:
A5) It's at 34% after only 2 days, that's a 3rd and we've only just put a video of it working on there. It's pretty safe to say that after 60 days it will have reached target..But in answer to your question, yes of course.. The project needed a target figure and that figure was an amount we decided would cover all production costs etc..If it falls short then we just have to put in something ourselves, although that's looking very unlikely at this stage.

Regards Lee

So there you go.....

[Rob15]

At £55 a piece, it seems... too cheap?

I can't help but agree with you there, judging from the info on Facebook they are being made in China which will help keep the cost down but even so, for what's bound to be a fairly low volume product that isn't insanely simple in design it does seem a bit on the low side.

 

I suppose £55 might work for direct only sale to end users, but if the intention is to sell at a trade price to retailers then I wouldn't be suprised if the planned trade price is way too high for any to want to stock it, that said only selling directly to end users is a viable way of going about things on lower volume products and it's good to see some innovation, hopefully the costing isn't off because at that price I can see it being a decent seller at £55.

[Mike 8-{>]

£55 per unit is the indiegogo backer price and I think includes a fiver for postage as the international version is £60. The indiegogo campaign page states the RRP will be £69.99 which doesn't include shipping. Having corresponded with MAS a little by email now it sounds to me like they have been in business for a while making real products for others and do have some clue as to manufacturing costs and issues. This isn't their first foray in to manufacturing hardware although it would seem to be their first Airsoft product.

 

That said it may be their first go at a retail product rather than an industrial / commercial product. I assume there are different margins / pricing if you sell direct to your customer or through a distributor then retailer who all want their markups....

[Mike 8-{>]

A couple more updates from the guys behind this via their Facebook page...

1) They are considering dropping the proprietary pyro as only three backers have opted for it.  Leaving it with the blank firing version.

 

2) They are looking at adding a high brightness led as a triggerable flashing / distraction device mode (a backer suggestion).

 

66% funded after only 5 days

[hitmanNo2]

High brightness emitting flash bang mode would be very cool.  Could you get a decent enough flash with an LED though?

[Philbucknall]

Well, you can add me to the list waiting on one! I've just contributed/bought one so I hope it isn't a duffer. Seems bloody good value for money and much more useful where I play than the impact grenades that don't always go off on soft ground.

[Mike 8-{>]

High brightness emitting flash bang mode would be very cool.  Could you get a decent enough flash with an LED though?

 

The latest is that they are looking at an add-on base module with a Cree LED in it. Cree being what the likes of Surefire and various other real Taclights use. So I think the answer should be yes

 

Only really useful indoors I guess.

 

 

PS I had gone for one of each design (blank and pyro) but that is set to become two blanks

[jal3]

Ironicly, a proprietary discharge system would allow for flashbang charges.

 

Using LED's to simulate a flashbang is quite hard and expensive. At least if you want to use "generic" LED's meant for continous use. I don't know about LED's for flashes (not strobe), but i haven't seen that yet. The current requirement would be insane. Capacitators would have to be used. Drivers (power supply units) for the LED's will have to be custom made too.

I'm thinking in the line of 20-40K lumen though...

[Mike 8-{>]

I dont think the idea is for continuous illumination. At least not in an "Aaaaaarrrrgh my eyes are bleeding!!!" fashion. Rather the strobing effect as a distraction. As seen on some tactical torches. Also a lower level continuous illumination. Much easier to implement I would have thought. However this is still all pre full production development / ptortotyping / testing type activities. Dont forget that the indiegogo campaign is to fund a decent size batch of pre production prototypes which will go to people interested in helping develop the product. Not for a finished product.

 

To quote the text from their facebook page https://www.facebook.com/molyneux.systems?fref=nf :-

 

"We've had lots of messages about combining CREE LEDs with the BFB (Blank Firing Base) to give a nice flash when the blank/primer is detonated.

 

Of course there are many different ways in which these LEDs can be used, strobing to disorientate, low level light to light up an area and in combination to enhance the bang.

 

This is now something that we will pursue developing although it will be a separate base option from that supplied initially with the main grenade body."  

[blobface]

I'm just looking forward to see the BFG addon's demo first to be honest, propitiatory pyro to be set off electronically is quite easy, but adding a mechanical part for BFG isn't all that simple imo. The way he brushed it off like "oh we'll just make it work with solenoid no worries" seems a little too nonchalant, additional features are cool but as far as I'm concerned the primary function needs to be demonstrated to be working reliably before I can put money down. 

[jal3]

 Much easier to implement I would have thought.

LED's need precise power supply controls or they will die easily.

In flashlight LED light bulbs, between the spring plate and the LED plate, sits a circuit board called the "driver". It's a computer controlled powersupply that gives the LED specific voltages and currents. It's also the board that controls various tricks such as dimming, strobe, SOS and so on.

 

The Luminus CBT-140 outputs 4500 lumen at roughly 20A. Add conversion loss to that.

Roughly the same current as two stock AEG's running full auto.

Per LED.

[hitmanNo2]

Indeed.  I would have thought you would need a pyro charge to get a decent flash.

 

Is there a video of the regular pyro bang going off anywhere?  I don't think I've seen one. 

[Mike 8-{>]

LED's need precise power supply controls or they will die easily.

[snip]

 

I realise this. I have an electronics background too. I'm not going to second guess how they might implement it. They have only just taken up the suggestion from one of their backers to look at it as an option. I believe the suggestion is it would be an add-on module attaching to the base of the main body. I have seen small pistol torches with strobe functions running off one or two CR123 type batteries there is also the Incentive Designs muzzle flash module (admittedly running off the AEG battery) so there are already products which are out there which can do this kind of thing. The guy behind the product has some 20 years electronics experience under his belt so I suspect he has some clue as to what he is up to.

 

 

Indeed.  I would have thought you would need a pyro charge to get a decent flash.

 

Is there a video of the regular pyro bang going off anywhere?  I don't think I've seen one. 

 

There is a demo of a version of their proprietary pyro bang on their Facebook page* which I linked to earlier. It isn't particularly spectacular. I believe the plan had been to offer Thunderflash style Mk1 to MkX (depending how big they could safely go) proprietary pyro devices. However, as already mentioned, they have abandoned that in favour of blank firing. There is no demo of a blank firing yet as they are currently designing the new device. This, I gather, will be based on an existing product which performs the same function but reduced in size.

 

For what it's worth their Facebook page** is worth a visit (if you "do" Facebook) as it has a bit more background / history of the development of the project. 

 

PS My involvement in this is only as a backer of the Indiegogo campaign. I have no connection with the designers. I have just corresponded by email and read available info from the web.

 

* https://www.facebook.com/molyneux.systems/videos/vb.1422150341429814/1443220952656086/?type=2&theater

** https://www.facebook.com/molyneux.systems

[hitmanNo2]

Thanks.  Definitely hadn't seen that vid.

[jal3]

I have seen small pistol torches with strobe functions running off one or two CR123 type batteries there is also the Incentive Designs muzzle flash module (admittedly running off the AEG battery) so there are already products which are out there which can do this kind of thing.

A flashbang needs to be bright. Really, really bright. Probably 100x brighter than your average weapon light. That's why it's so hard to do.

[Mike 8-{>]

I would rather an uncomfortably bright LED and an affordable and fun airsoft device than something with a 1/2 kilo battery pack that leaves me feeling sick and with arc eye for a day after being in the room with one going off.  

 

Let's see what they can create before dismissing it as an impossible goal.

 

If you want the effects of a pyro flash bang then you can still go buy the airsoft ones. I'll see what they come up with and then make a judgement as to whether or not it is any good.

[jal3]

As i said:

Using LED's to simulate a flashbang is quite hard and expensive.

[Mike 8-{>]

As i said:.......

 

Just to clarify... I never said "flashbang" and neither did the manufacturer.  That is something yourself and hitmanNo2 have inferred.

 

 I believe they are looking at something like a bright flashing LED. Something that even a modern high output LED bicycle light can do quite effectively without difficulty.  

[bettyblue84]