swatti Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Do I have to buy myself a tm M870 just to Airstock it? Don't temp me... EDIT Just imagine how simple the M870 would be if there were two versions, one firing six, one firing three rounds. Durability of a bolt-catch comes down to two things, material strength and contact surface. When large contact surface is not available one must use "overkill" strong materials and thus price will be higher. Car engines have several examples. Easier solution would be to increase the contact surface to similar of a real steel AR15. GBBRs only bite the corner of the bolt while real steel hits the entire lower portion of the bolt. Now dead WE closed-bolt systems had a great bolt-catch. Open bolt system reduced the contact surface and so started the problems. Tm tried to cushion the blow the catch has to take. Interesting idea with few not so easy to see benefits but as mentioned will rise the cost and will need full revamp after installing seemingly unrelated upgrades... There will be whine and hate. What I'm interested in is the efficiency. Can it beat the GHK. Sadly my wait is longer than yours as I have to wait for Co2 mags or maybe, just maybe the mags could be dh-modded. We shall see. ETA on release date and price? Link to post Share on other sites
Finbarqs Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 I'll probably get one just to let someone borrow it so I don't have to worry about their *albatross* when something malfunctions Link to post Share on other sites
rusTORK Posted September 7, 2015 Report Share Posted September 7, 2015 Japan Tech is good, but i will wait for tests. Marui M4A1 GBB vs GHK M4A1 GBB. That will be interesting! Maybe i even will not go on job that day... Link to post Share on other sites
Leshy Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 Any release dates announced for the M4 yet? Link to post Share on other sites
BioRage Posted September 8, 2015 Report Share Posted September 8, 2015 I'm just waiting here for the AA12. Going to make everyone in CQB quit :-) Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 I don't get why people say the M4 mech is complicated. Let's break it down as I see it, those who have mechanical engineering training may be able to pick up more than me. Starting with the BCG and the big silver plate piece; the interface between the BCG and the plate is at an angle, which makes it harder for the BCG to return to battery if you shake the receiver around. There is a normal force against the surface (besides the friction force) to prevent the BCG from dropping. The plate interacts with the bolt catch; in essence the surface area taking up the force in locking the BCG back (from the BCG to the bolt catch) has increased greatly; the bolt catch will hardly wear down anymore and looking at the design the bolt catch mech will be very study (again, massive surface area to take up force when the BCG is held back when the bolt catch activates). The only material issue I can foresee is only the interface between the plate and the middle of the BCG....as of every other GBBR M4s, but the force should be distributed on a much wider surface area and the TM mechanism should have less wear. Now, the most impressive part of the ZET system I find is the spring, pin and pivot lever near the bottom of the mechanism that was shown. The plate that interacts with the BCG also interacts with the pivot lever, which acts against the spring pressure from the spring at the bottom. What this does as far as I can tell is to provide a damping force as the BCG rushes forwards towards an activated bolt catch which reduces the velocity as the BCG becomes stationary. This reduces the wear dramatically against the interface between the BCG and whatever is going to hold it back on the upper receiver. No other GBB system has this sort of damping system in its design, and this leaves a number of problems:- BCG / bolt catch interface wearing down quickly; - BCG bounce; and - once BCG/ bolt catch interface wears down, the BCG can drop with a shake of the gun. The ZET design, if using the appropriate materials (and with its wear reduction design it potentially doesn't need the same grade of steel, or even steel at all, as used by the WA legacy style design) it should last far longer than any other bolt-lock capable GBBs out in the market today. I'm actually very impressed with the out off the box thinking TM managed to do this time for the M4. I don't think it's comparable to bring the m870 design discussion when assessing the ZET system because the engineers are facing different problems altogether. In my opinion, I think the main concern is how the hammer and trigger interface is designed, and the space constraints within the TM M4 trigger group area. Undoubtedly one of the many airsoft companies will want to design adjustable "match" triggers and if there isn't space to implement design changes then we may be stuck with the OEM trigger group. Another issue is the material for the trigger group itself. Given the larger magazine, and this is the biggest GBB magazine TM has designed, the pressure against the output valve would be higher than any other magazine they've designed. This means that it'll take more force to open the output valve and therefore the hammer springs will have to be stronger than whatever they've used in the past. If they stick with pot metal for the trigger group there may be wear or shearing issues with the trigger group. Link to post Share on other sites
scorch Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 Given the larger magazine, and this is the biggest GBB magazine TM has designed, the pressure against the output valve would be higher than any other magazine they've designed. That's not how it works. In this context, the pressure of a gas stored in liquid form is dictated by temperature, not size of container. Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted September 9, 2015 Report Share Posted September 9, 2015 That's not how it works. In this context, the pressure of a gas stored in liquid form is dictated by temperature, not size of container. I've forgotten my high school physics. I stand corrected Link to post Share on other sites
Aod Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 This system looks stupidity over complicated just like the m870. Sorry, I've been off the forums for a while now - how's the TM M870 "stupidly overcomplicated"? I've only opened two or three but none of them have given me much in the way of trouble. All the springs and levers and catches are there to fulfil a specific function that is accurate to the real M870 as well. As for the M4 MWS, this mechanism doesn't really look that complicate to me. Instead of the bolt catch intefacing directly with the bolt (which is a dumb design anyway), it pushes an anchored stop into place which then interacts with the bolt and a spring-loaded dampener. If you think that's complicated, look inside a cars automatic gearbox one of these days. Link to post Share on other sites
Alias1983 Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 Bars and levers, mine was a nightmare and I never got it to feed correctly. Even my tm shells didn't feed correctly, I had to open the chamber, shake the ###### out of then close it and it might feed right. I felt they over designed the system. Not to mention everything was loose from the outer barrel the action arms. This was ootb, I was expecting marui awesome and got none of that. I could not repair the gun, that means the average user could not repair it. Springs go goodbye as soon as you open it and round here there are no spare parts to think of. That's what I mean by overly complicated, its overly designed and they could of made it simpler. I'm no engineer, I'm the guy that puts there designs together and so many design flaws the end user has to fix. In the construction world the workers hate the engineering department because what they say will always work does not happen once you start assembling the building. Many things controlled by one thing made of cheese. I swear they put more into the design than the materials. Maybe it's just I got the only lemon marui ever made, it was my first and everyone and there dog says marui bestest!!! Guess I'm bitter I spent a lot of money on a system that was not an ootb performer. I won't even get into how I got ahold of the proper gas its designed for. Duster kinda made it work, gg made improvement but it never worked as intended. Unrepairable by the average person, this system looks the same. I ordered a ghk as soon as I seen this system as I was expecting a realistic m4 design that's more efficient. But its not, its efficient for sure but so is a devilhunter co2 ghk. Link to post Share on other sites
swatti Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 Anyone know the price range? I'm also torn between this and GHK, most likely will go GHK since it will take ages to get Co2-mags for this and bazillion upgrades to last Co2 Link to post Share on other sites
intinerious Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Unrepairable by the average person, this system looks the same. Uhh...there's like 3 additional items on the ZET vs the WA legacy system and they're big pieces that aren't that complicated. I really can't see how, as far as the information is provided by TM right now regarding the ZET system, that if you can disassemble the bolt catch from the lower receiver and remove the BCG from the upper, you can't fit 3 more steps in removing the 3 additional pieces from the ZET for replacement. Link to post Share on other sites
Danke Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 My TM870 is still ticking over despite me opening it up to swap furniture. I really suspect issues with that gun are all around short stroking, miss feeding , and forcing it to cycle instead of clearing the stoppage. The new gas rifle has me very in. The current examples use a very problematic method to trip the hold open. On a real AR you've got a huge mag spring to trip the lever. On airsoft guns it's a tiny weak spring so very easy to over ride. I'm more than happy to trade away realistic takedown and fitting RS parts if the function is solid out of the box. Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Some of these comments are ridiculous, where is the point in saying your not buying it because it's unreliably over engineered when it's not even out yet .. Maybe it's engineered enough to actually be reliable. You'll find out once it's actually released.. Link to post Share on other sites
Zereck Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 By the way there is already a teaser from Marui tough not the usual as they mostly show already revealed guns and only a blurry picture of a guy holding presumably the new High Cycle model(looks like a Patriot?). No teaser about the new Next gen AEG. Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted September 19, 2015 Report Share Posted September 19, 2015 Doesn't really show anything and I can't read the Japanese or translate it as its on a picture. Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted October 11, 2015 Report Share Posted October 11, 2015 From my various Japanese contacts in the know, I'm hearing reports of sub 60,000 yen / US$500 MSRP and release near the end of this month. Head shot at 30 yards which presumably is running on 134A is quite impressive. Link to post Share on other sites
kagami Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 a lot of variation in preorder prices. I saw shops with preorder prices in the low-mid 40,000 yen range and others in the mid 50,000. interesting. Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 I think most retailers are basing it off expected pricing. Hence the 10,000 yen +/- variance. The price I stated was what TM have reported to a couple major Japanese publishers. Link to post Share on other sites
icolater Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Yea but the amount of upgrades needed to make it green gas reliable would make that figure multiply rapidly, marui internal quality is getting worse with every release. This I'm sure will be no differant. Link to post Share on other sites
amateurstuntman Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 HPA is laaaaaaame Thanks for your logical and reasoned argument Roland. Your compelling meditation on the subject has made me reconsider my choices. You have shown me where I went wrong in life and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. FOR SALE: 1 laaaaaaame Polarstar setup. The industry is in a state of flux. The stability that I remember from my youth has gone. The incredible choice has brought a degree of complexity of choice that is astonishing. Once Marui brought out the original AEGs the industry had a period of many years where all models had mag and component compatibility with the Marui model. The recent explosion of GBBR designs has meant that where an M4 mag was once an M4 mag there are now dozens of compatible, semi-compatible and non-compatible versions. I am sure that eventually somewhere down the line one of the designs will become dominant and the compatibility will return but that time is not now. This design adds another option, the consumer is the one who will chose a design that fulfils their needs and that can't be assessed until the final retail product is out there. This does look interesting, I'll stick with P* for now. Its "downsides" aren't downsides to me. Link to post Share on other sites
icolater Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 As stated above each to there own, there is no "better system", just what suits the user better. Link to post Share on other sites
DeltaZero Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Common guyz evry1 knows P* am bestest. Evrythin else sux. Seriously though, im with Stunt, they aren't downsides for me. I am very interested in this system though, I'll probably dip my toes into this pool eventually once the inevitable initial flaws are ironed out! Link to post Share on other sites
amateurstuntman Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 As stated above each to there own, there is no "better system", just what suits the user better. Sure mate, I know that. I just thought Roland's comment was funny. Link to post Share on other sites
Alias1983 Posted October 15, 2015 Report Share Posted October 15, 2015 Only reasons I refuse to go p*. 1 aeg mags suck 99% of the time. 2 no recoil 3 tank/line Ghk + devilhunter mod= I don't need no stinking gg/propane/hpa. And I can play in the winter, summertime just gives me more milage. I don't need a tm for anything. IMO this system is for the Japanese market, better options for gg/propane for about the same price. Link to post Share on other sites
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