Airsoft Innovation Cyclone Impact Grenade

[LordElpus]

They did test out a launch able impact tornado "missile" from a M203 there should be videos on this board somewhere.

[MadMax]

Hey guys, how's it going. It sure is nice to finally put out a product that players like the idea of. When I started AI I was met by some players really happy to get cheap gas, and a fair number of very vocal players yelling at me for promoting the use of flammable gas that would destroy airsoft. It took a couple years for those flame wars to die down.

 

I'll try to address issues in this thread in the order that they have come up.

 

Renegadecow is correct in his postulation that we employ a kind of hair trigger that is blocked by the spoon. The spoon is loosely fitted to the fuze head so that it pretty much always comes off during the throw. The spoon is only retained by the pin and the hand. When the pin is removed and the hand throws the grenade, the spoon flies away even though there is no spring to dislodge it. Initially Cyclone was designed to accomodate a compression spring to shuck the spoon, you can see the vestige of the design feature still in the fuze head. We found that the spring made the spoon too excited to fly off if the user shifted their grip slightly so I ditched the spring since the grenade worked better without it.

 

Cyclone employs a significantly different firing principle to load and propel it's pellets than Tornado. I call the new firing principle the Quantum Drive (patent pending) and it will become the basis for an upcoming line of products from AI including the shotgun. The QD gives us much higher velocity, and consistent propulsion over every pellet discharged from Cyclone than we can achieve with Tornado.

 

As to the detachable spoon, the original intent was to provide a lanyard hole to tie the spoon down to the fuze head. Unfortunately we decided to apply a moulded rubber boot over the fuze head to improve it's impact tolerance which covered up the corresponding lanyard hole and I could not get a corresponding hole put into the rubber boot. Still it would not be difficult to punch a small hole into the rubber boot to lanyard the spoon down to. Early attempts at a hinged spoon didn't do well because they sometimes got clobbered when the grenade hit a wall or the floor. Hinged spoons can also interfere with grenade spin despite having a spring bias them open because the grenade spins so fast. Cyclone spins at an average of about 3500rpm during it's short 0.2s discharge cycle by the time it's exhausted it's pellets which makes it hard to keep a spoon coaxial with the spin axis.

 

As to the shotgun, I fear that it is going to be another opus project for me. The design is currently too complicated. I might be ok with launching it from my own company except that we cannot manufacture what would probably be deemed a replica firearm in Canada. Therefore I have to work out a vendor partnership which means that I don't get control over the assembly line. If I am going to work with a vendor partner, even we provide shotgun engines, I will have to simplify my design to make it outsourceable. Product launch is always a mess for us, but when we assemble in house we directly see what difficulties my *suitcasey* design causes. I can make small design adjustments, we can devise better tooling, we can make training and testing adjustments. When the assembly floor isn't under our control, not only do we not have control, we cannot directly see what a mess I've caused. I consider good product design to be inexorably integrated with manufacturing because I have thus far failed to design anything that just went together tickety boo on the manufacturing line right off the bat.

[Habakure]

So, about that M41a grenade launcher. . .?

[MadMax]

So, about that M41a grenade launcher. . .?

 

I was hoping to avoid that question because I am not close enough to completing work on that project so I consider the project speculative still. If I can't work out certain issues I have to start another concept or abandon the work.

 

You might note that the fuze head on Cyclone is pretty easy to attach to the main body. The fuze head is basically a modular accessory to the main body to open the possibility that I might be able to devise other triggering head types to be compatible with the main body. I have done some work on some of these other triggering accessories and have some really neat functioning proof of concepts but they have some niggling issues that I have to resolve before I can even think about tooling up for them. I'm hoping that will be able to offer some interesting triggering options to players that will be available as economical accessories to the Cyclone build. I initially hoped to launch the whole line of doohickies at the same time, but this project has already drawn out to 6 years.

 

There's a reason why the main body of Cyclone has such a small 37mm diameter. It was originally intended to be released as a hand grenade that is also launchable, but the complexity of shoehorning everything into it's small form factor presented quite a lot of design difficulties. I really wanted players to have a new hand grenade which incorporated significant improvements over Tornado and also offered launch functionality. Unfortunately I made the design exercise far to hard so we decided to release Cyclone as a hand grenade so we can recoup some of our R&D costs to invest in future design in accessories for Cyclone.

 

I've got a few working proof of concepts for launch heads that provide launchable functionality to Cyclone, but I have safety issues to work out. While flying downrange and exploding is the exciting bit, the way our products work off the playing field complicates things from a safety perspective. Also, we play a really fun game but expect to come home at the end of the day. Issues like making my launchable Cyclone fuze head easy to arm before firing, but reliably disarmed if removed from the tube without firing complicate things. I can't provide a product that is designed in a way that reasonable user error could result in my product discharging in the safe area. I can make a dingus that is insensitive, but armed by launch impulse before it triggers downrange, but I haven't worked out a good way to make the unfired round extractable from the tube and safe to leave on a table.

 

Anyways, I'm not willing to announce anything about a launch accessory because I haven't found good solutions to certain problems yet. The plan is to try to develop a cheap accessory fuze head that a player can swap out with the impact fuze head to turn their Cyclone into a launchable grenade as well as develop some other interesting triggering options.

[renegadecow]

Dear god. Launchable Cyclones. Launchable Cyclones in my China Lake.

[Wingmann]

Thanks for taking the time to explain things with so much detail.

[hitmanNo2]

Wow.  And here's me thinking never in a million years and you have prototypes.  Nice.

[MadMax]

Dear god. Launchable Cyclones. Launchable Cyclones in my China Lake.

 

Holey *suitcase*. You have an EX-41? I've been wanting to make one for years.

 

Sadly my plan for launchable Cyclones is not going to be as awesome as many have hoped.

 

Back when I was under the delusion that I could release Cyclone as a launchable grenade, I did a test where I fired a dummy (similar weight and dimensions to the proof of concept) out of a M203. I was using some of the more powerful Madbull BB shower cartridges to provide propulsion and my dummy round blasted through both sides of a cardboard box before smashing itself on a cinderblock wall. It was way too powerful to keep the round durable and it basically turned into a riot baton when it whizzed out the tube. The barrel was just too long on the M203 so I had to limit the thrust length of the barrel in a way that made it very difficult for someone ingenious to defeat.

 

I ended up putting on an ugly lug ring to make the grenade launchable via a shallow muzzle load. It looks like ######, but it does come with some important benefits, other than limiting the thrust length of the device. Firstly it makes it extremely obvious that the barrel is armed and it makes it very easy to disarm the launcher when you walk into the safe zone. With the breech loaded variant, you had to poke it out the barrel with a stick which risked also poking various arming bits to push it out of the barrel. Another benefit that the lug ring provided was that it made it possible for me to section off the whole end cap with that big diameter bayonet ring which made it easy to provide dump loading for the grenade.

 

The lug ring makes for a less exciting launchable device, but it makes it safer and it makes it a much better hand grenade.

 

With the grenade muzzle loaded to the lug ring I find that I can still achieve about a 75' lob with the barrel elevated at around 30deg. Nothing like the real thing, but it's a much more reasonable muzzle velocity.

[PMO Gordo]

Holey *suitcase*. You have an EX-41? I've been wanting to make one for years.

 

Sadly my plan for launchable Cyclones is not going to be as awesome as many have hoped.

 

Back when I was under the delusion that I could release Cyclone as a launchable grenade, I did a test where I fired a dummy (similar weight and dimensions to the proof of concept) out of a M203. I was using some of the more powerful Madbull BB shower cartridges to provide propulsion and my dummy round blasted through both sides of a cardboard box before smashing itself on a cinderblock wall. It was way too powerful to keep the round durable and it basically turned into a riot baton when it whizzed out the tube. The barrel was just too long on the M203 so I had to limit the thrust length of the barrel in a way that made it very difficult for someone ingenious to defeat.

 

I ended up putting on an ugly lug ring to make the grenade launchable via a shallow muzzle load. It looks like ######, but it does come with some important benefits, other than limiting the thrust length of the device. Firstly it makes it extremely obvious that the barrel is armed and it makes it very easy to disarm the launcher when you walk into the safe zone. With the breech loaded variant, you had to poke it out the barrel with a stick which risked also poking various arming bits to push it out of the barrel. Another benefit that the lug ring provided was that it made it possible for me to section off the whole end cap with that big diameter bayonet ring which made it easy to provide dump loading for the grenade.

 

The lug ring makes for a less exciting launchable device, but it makes it safer and it makes it a much better hand grenade.

 

With the grenade muzzle loaded to the lug ring I find that I can still achieve about a 75' lob with the barrel elevated at around 30deg. Nothing like the real thing, but it's a much more reasonable muzzle velocity.

 

MadMax, thank you for sharing the story of the development of launch-able Cyclone. I'd like to share with you some tips I've learned during the development of my P.M.O.G. Airsoft 40mm Projectiles: http://www.instructables.com/id/Airsoft-40mm-Special-Effect-Projectiles/

 

1. Safety: The safety must take first priority in war games, and it is prudent to assume that a player may accidentally shoot another player at point blank range. The human head contains many vital organs, so its protection should come first. Eye sockets could be fractured at the kinetic energy of 5 J [Clemedson, 1968; Schneider, 1972], but since most places require eye protection on the fields, and check and clear weapons as players leave them, it may be acceptable to allow kinetic energy higher that. Next, facial bones could be broken at the kinetic energy of 40 J.[Clemedson, 1968; Schneider, 1972] Since they can obstruct airways when broken, and many places do not require face protection, I recommend 40 J as the maximal kinetic energy a large-bore Airsoft projectile can possess. Although the kinetic energy of the projectile is the greatest factor in terms of safety, the hardness of the projectile materials also play some part.[bullock, 1996] Elastic materials curtails energy absorbed by tissues, and may reduce their damaging potentials. It may be a good idea to put some spongy foam at the tip of a projectile.

 

2. Range: The kinetic energy of a projectile comes from its mass and velocity. I could not find Cyclone's weight on the internet. But based on its size compared to Tornado, I'd guess it weigh 100 grams. Give a maximal kinetic energy of 40 J and projectile mass of 100 grams, the projectile velocity is 93 feet / second (28 meter / second). From my experiments with P.M.O.G., that velocity could only produce 60-70 feet of effective range, which is below the common Airsoft engagement distance of 100 feet. My test data also showed that to reach 100 feet, a minimum velocity of 130 feet / second may be needed. With these in mind, I'd recommend that you try to make the launch-able Cyclone approach the weight of 50 grams.

 

3. Accuracy and precision: A non-spherical projectile's stability in flight is largely determined by its center of gravity (COG) relative to its center of pressure (COP). When a projectile's COP is behind COG, it is mostly stable. This can be achieved by adding fins to the base of the projectile, but their size would limit the amount of projectiles a player can carry. Another way is to move most of the weight near the tip of a projectile, but it may be difficult depending on the designs of the impact trigger mechanism and BB chamber. The best way to stabilize an inherent unstable projectile is to use spin-stabilization. Fortunately, Tactical Game Innovation (TAGinn) already come up with a specialty shell that features rifled barrel: http://airsoftpyrotechnics.com/airsoft-pyrotechnics-products/launcher-detail#.VmT3tcrTF_E . As long as your launch-able Cyclone can fit inside shell barrel and has the right skirt to match the rifling, it can be quite accurate and precise, too! This will also make it easier to disarm it - simply remove the shell, unscrew the barrel, and push the Cyclone out.

 

Don't give up on launch-able Cyclone yet! Keep up the good work!

 

REF:

 

1. Clemedson, C., Hellstrom, G., Lindgren, S. “The Relative Tolerance of the Head, Thorax, and Abdomen to Blunt Trauma”, Annals New York Academy of Sciences, Vol. 152, 1968.
2. Schneider, D.C., Nahum, A.M. “Impact Studies of Facial Bones and Skull”, Proceddings of the 16^th Stapp Car Crash Conference, November 1972
3. Bullock, J. D., Johnson, D. A., Ballal, D. R., & Bullock, R. J. (1996). Ocular and orbital trauma from water balloon slingshots: a clinical, epidemiological, experimental, and theoretical study. Transactions of the American Ophthalmological Society, 94, 105.

[NonEx]

I've never considered any airsoft grenades previously but this looks pretty awesome at a reasonable price. A pack of 3 sounds like a plan to me

[PMO Gordo]

The concept art of a launch-able Cyclone - basically a hybrid of Airsoft Innovations' Cyclone and Tactical Game Innovation's Pecker projectile.

 

[MadMax]

Thanks for the safety reading. It's interesting to find that I have similar safe muzzle velocity/range correlations.

 

To be honest I don't have much interest in making a breech loaded projectile altogether. The combined cost of a projectile and proprietary driver charge pushes per launch set price up close to $100. I've already been punished discovering that there are certain price points at which customers really start to look at other things with their discretionary spending money. My hope was to provide a $40 hand grenade that could be augmented with a $10-$15 accessory fuze head that flies out of the M203 you already own propelled by the MOSCART shells you already have. I thought that a hand grenade that could easily be repurposed into a launchable grenade with stuff you already have was a pretty interesting product offering. A lot of players already have BB shower shells. Using them to kick my muzzle loaded projectile might not be the ideal solution, but I thought that the combined product offering of a hand grenade and a potential 40mm launchable could be quite compelling.

 

Also doing away with the lug ring to make my product breechable would also do away with the dump load feature. That would make my product a worse hand grenade. I cannot fit the removeable end cap locking features in a sub 40mm diameter.

[BLZeebub]

How much of an impact doe the Cyclone need to go off? One of the biggest problems with most of the impact BFG's is getting them to reliably go off in woodland sites and soft ground so I'd be interested in how they would work in that environment.

 

By the way MadMax, its good to get the people behind the product to be so open about stuff!

 

Cheers

 

B->

[Brigg]

I can't speak for everyone, but I would gladly buy a separate launchable version of this grenade. I would be very unlikely to switch between launched and thrown during a game so having two separate ones would be preferable to me anyway. Less parts to lose.

[Cire_]

I love the price. It means you could still loose one and not cry when you go to sleep. 

[BioRage]

Welp, didn't get my hands on them, cause most of the retailers in my area that went to pick them up/get delivered stated they only had 10-20 that were allowed to "get"... they all sold out within minutes of being posted. I assume next re-stock be in Dec.

[Habakure]

You mean this month? That's not bad.

[BioRage]

You mean this month? That's not bad.

 

Lol, it's what they told me, but prolly next year.

[hitmanNo2]

I have a feeling they might make a bit of a killing on these.

[renegadecow]

They're cheap and go boom. What's not to like?

[Habakure]

Sounds like a chat up line 'I'm cheap and go boom, what's not to like?'.

 

Definitley buying two on the 15th, fingers crossed theres still some left by then.

[Alias1983]

Not cheap enough for me to consider disposable.

[renegadecow]

Nothing's stopping you from picking them back up after you've thrown them.

[renegadecow]

Holey *suitcase*. You have an EX-41? I've been wanting to make one for years.

 

Sorry, missed that part. Not an EX-41 but the original China Lake from the 60s.

[Alias1983]

Nothing's stopping you from picking them back up after you've thrown them.

Sadly not all airsofters are honest