WE AK PMC Shattering BBs

[Sturm]

Without shortening the screws it will push the trigger guard down, usually bending the receiver.

Well, it is all good now. I'm using a wood conversion kit anyway, which came with two short hex screws. I just replaced the long ones and hammered the receiver back into place. Voila.

 

But...then came the issue of the magazine release being taken off to do all of that stuff. Then the spring bent, and I managed to reinstall it, at the cost of the magazine catch being rather weak, which I suppose, might be causing the full auto feeding problems.

 

It's a long chain of *suitcase*, and hopefully it'll be over soon. I ordered some magazine release springs from KYairsoft a week ago. They should get here by the end of the month I hope.

[renegadecow]

Just how badly did you damage the springs? Like I said in your other post, you can easily repair or even fabricate your own springs with a bit of heat.

[Sturm]

Just how badly did you damage the springs? Like I said in your other post, you can easily repair or even fabricate your own springs with a bit of heat.

Badly enough that the long leg of it is bent to the point where it cannot be compressed as much as it could (because the leg cannot be bent inward as much).

 

But, could the significant amount of wobble in the magazines cause the misfeeding in full auto? Is it logical?

[renegadecow]

One way to check: keep the catch held closed and see if feeding is improved.

[Sturm]

One way to check: keep the catch held closed and see if feeding is improved.

How would I do that? Just grip the catch itself as I am firing?

 

Anyway, I did grip the bottom of the magazine with as much force as I could, to try and prevent wobbling. The feed did seem considerably better, but still not uninterrupted. Even with my hand clutching the magazine as I fire, the recoil is violent enough that I loose part of my hold and the misfeeding starts again. Is this indicative that the magazine catch is too loose?

 

If I 'finger' it, the catch is a lot easier to move than it was before I took it off and reinstalled it (bending the spring in the process as well). Out of the box, the magazine release had a lot more spring tension applied to it. Could this be the root of the problem?

[DarkLite]

It does sound like this could be the issue. Try resting the magazine on a table or something whilst firing it to keep the magazine held tightly in the gun and see if that helps. That would indicate that this is the root cause.

[Sturm]

It does sound like this could be the issue. Try resting the magazine on a table or something whilst firing it to keep the magazine held tightly in the gun and see if that helps. That would indicate that this is the root cause.

When I have the time I'll do additional 'testing.'

 

What else could it be? I cannot see where else the problem could lie, especially since semi auto works absolutely fine. If it isn't this, I am all out of ideas.

 

To think that one stupid mistake has led to every single issue I have had with this gun. Jesus. Talk about the butterfly effect.

[DarkLite]

I think what's happening is that on full auto, the magazine is shifting against the weakened magazine catch, causing the feed lips to be out of alignment with the feed ramp into the hop-up chamber when the bolt returns, causing bbs to be knocked out of the feed path.

[Sturm]

I think what's happening is that on full auto, the magazine is shifting against the weakened magazine catch, causing the feed lips to be out of alignment with the feed ramp into the hop-up chamber when the bolt returns, causing bbs to be knocked out of the feed path.

That makes sense to me.

 

But, semi auto. The fact that it does not happen on semi auto is interesting. The recoil is less, and thus the magazine will wobble less because of the weak magazine catch, but still.

[renegadecow]

Another would be that you didn't correct the receiver bending enough. You need to remove the trigger pack and the plate the mag catch screws on to bend the bottom of the receiver back to spec. It should be just slightly bowed upwards and let the plate straighten it back down when screwed tight.

[Dimitri MdP]

Well, I don't think the problem really lies there. Recoil in semi is exactly the same as recoil in full auto, also both modes are mechanically identical (except for the disconnector), and all magazines have some wobble in every AK anyway

So I don't see why the wobble would cause miss feeds in full auto and not in semi. Please check if your full auto disconector, or whatever people call part #87 (the lever in the right side of the receiver, which controls the drop of the hammer) is working properly. Field strip your gun, select full auto, cock the hammer, and see if it drops when you press the trigger. It should not drop until you push that lever forward. 
If it's dropping prematurely, then the hammer is probably just riding the bolt, which causes all sorts of weird behaviour. It would not be the first time i see that in a RA-Tech upgraded AK...


Really, a video (no need for a gopro, just get your smartphone and film a crappy clip) would help to pinpoint the problem.

[Sturm]

Well, I don't think the problem really lies there. Recoil in semi is exactly the same as recoil in full auto, also both modes are mechanically identical (except for the disconnector), and all magazines have some wobble in every AK anyway

 

So I don't see why the wobble would cause miss feeds in full auto and not in semi. Please check if your full auto disconector, or whatever people call part #87 (the lever in the right side of the receiver, which controls the drop of the hammer) is working properly. Field strip your gun, select full auto, cock the hammer, and see if it drops when you press the trigger. It should not drop until you push that lever forward.

If it's dropping prematurely, then the hammer is probably just riding the bolt, which causes all sorts of weird behaviour. It would not be the first time i see that in a RA-Tech upgraded AK...

 

 

Really, a video (no need for a gopro, just get your smartphone and film a crappy clip) would help to pinpoint the problem.

That disconnector behaves very strangely. It seems to have no spring retention whatsoever. If I turn the gun upside down, it will 'fall' back up. If I turn the gun back, it will go back down again. It does not do anything when the hammer is dropped. Semi and full auto act the same with it. It doesn't move, unless gravity moves it. Weird.

 

Video of the disconnect behaviour is too big to attach it. *suitcase*, guess I'll have to go through YouTube (sighs).

[renegadecow]

Then your full auto was never working properly like I first surmised.

[Sturm]

Then your full auto was never working properly like I first surmised.

*suitcase*.

 

What can I do without causing myriad of other problems?

 

I need to get that video on YouTube...

 

 

Edit:

 

It is really *suitcase*, as usual, but I hope it illustrates something.

[Dimitri MdP]

yay, video to confirm issues FTW! 

It definitely looks like you have a snapped (/absent?) spring in your full auto sear. I think it's part #103. Getting there requires extensive disassembly, so make sure you watch some tutorials before going for it.

[Sturm]

yay, video to confirm issues FTW! 

It definitely looks like you have a snapped (/absent?) spring in your full auto sear. I think it's part #103. Getting there requires extensive disassembly, so make sure you watch some tutorials before going for it.

'Extensive' disassembly? Oh dear...

 

Can you link a video somewhere for it? It is basically removing it from the trigger box, right? It is easy to remove the trigger box. Is there much more to it?

 

Also, I think that spring is present. The leg of it is 'hooked' onto a part on the inside of the magwell.

 

Could it have been dislodged somehow? I hope it is not snapped.

 

But, most importantly, how does it impact full auto feeding, or full auto in general? Do you think we have a 'diagnosis' of what is causing the misfeeding now?

[Dimitri MdP]

Normal full auto operation: Bolt cycles back cocking the hammer, which releases once the bolt is back on battery (as there's no sear or trigger engaging) and starts the cycle again, until you let go off the trigger, which catches the hammer until the next trigger press.
That little paddle is the sear that blocks the hammer until the bolt pushes it forward, to make sure the bolt is in battery (all the way forward, a completed cycle).
Semi is identical except for the sear behind the trigger interrupting the bolt release, but the side "full auto" sear must be engaged too.

With that sear not working, the hammer is able to release as soon as the bolt carrier clears it, which is way too soon. Therefore it's probably releasing gas and starting to cycle the gun before the bb is properly loaded in the chamber, and there goes your miss feeds (and horrendous consistency and efficiency)


The sear should be spring loaded to the back (/up) position, where it should keep the hammer blocked. If you manually push it forward, it should come back on it's own. 

You could do a function check by pushing the paddle back with the gun field stripped and pressing the trigger, with the selector in full auto. The hammer should not be able to release until you push that sear forward. 
Also with the bolt in but the top cover out and no magazine, you could check how is the bolt interacting with the hammer and that sear. Just ride the bolt back and move it forward slowly. You should be able to see if the hammer is dropping as soon as the bolt clears it (not good) or if it waits for the bolt to move the sear forward as it should. Also doing the same but watching from below thorugh the mag well, you should be able to clearly see how that sear moves forward as the gun goes "click" and releases the firing pin.


I'm pretty positive the feeding problem lies there. But do those checks and see how it goes. It you need to inspect what's going on, or replace / fix the spring position, then you'll have to take the FCG out and dissasemble the whole front part, as it's the last thing in there. This video could help if you're not familiar with trigger box disassemble

[Colin_The+Ferret]

Interesting.

I believe that sear was never part of the AK47, but was added to the AKM trigger mechanism to slow the rate of fire. Ancedotal evidence suggests that it doesn't.

But it has a usefull function in the GBBR.

Who woulf have guesed?

[Dimitri MdP]

AFAIK that sear is there in the real gun to improve reliability. In the GBB it's much more critical though.

[Sturm]

Normal full auto operation: Bolt cycles back cocking the hammer, which releases once the bolt is back on battery (as there's no sear or trigger engaging) and starts the cycle again, until you let go off the trigger, which catches the hammer until the next trigger press.

That little paddle is the sear that blocks the hammer until the bolt pushes it forward, to make sure the bolt is in battery (all the way forward, a completed cycle).

Semi is identical except for the sear behind the trigger interrupting the bolt release, but the side "full auto" sear must be engaged too.

With that sear not working, the hammer is able to release as soon as the bolt carrier clears it, which is way too soon. Therefore it's probably releasing gas and starting to cycle the gun before the bb is properly loaded in the chamber, and there goes your miss feeds (and horrendous consistency and efficiency)

The sear should be spring loaded to the back (/up) position, where it should keep the hammer blocked. If you manually push it forward, it should come back on it's own.

You could do a function check by pushing the paddle back with the gun field stripped and pressing the trigger, with the selector in full auto. The hammer should not be able to release until you push that sear forward.

Also with the bolt in but the top cover out and no magazine, you could check how is the bolt interacting with the hammer and that sear. Just ride the bolt back and move it forward slowly. You should be able to see if the hammer is dropping as soon as the bolt clears it (not good) or if it waits for the bolt to move the sear forward as it should. Also doing the same but watching from below thorugh the mag well, you should be able to clearly see how that sear moves forward as the gun goes "click" and releases the firing pin.

I'm pretty positive the feeding problem lies there. But do those checks and see how it goes. It you need to inspect what's going on, or replace / fix the spring position, then you'll have to take the FCG out and dissasemble the whole front part, as it's the last thing in there. This video could help if you're not familiar with trigger box disassemble

I've seen that video plenty of times. The thing is, he does not disassemble the disconnector. Is it mostly plug-and-play?

 

Do I seriously have to take everything out just to get at this little bugger? Can I not just take out the disconnector, or do I really need to practically strip the entire FCG to do this?

 

About that test thing you're speaking of, I think I've done something similar (accidentally). The hammer seems to lock up when that disconnector piece is fully up with the hammer. At least, that's what I've seen it do. Is this normal behaviour (the disconnector will not do this without me putting it up manually since its spring does not appear to be functioning properly)?

[Dimitri MdP]

Yup, that's how it should work: when the disconnector is "up", it should block the hammer from moving. The problem is that your spring is failing to get it up as it should.

iirc you must remove the hammer to have access to that part.

[Sturm]

Yup, that's how it should work: when the disconnector is "up", it should block the hammer from moving. The problem is that your spring is failing to get it up as it should.

iirc you must remove the hammer to have access to that part.

Can you find any videos on it (I have had no luck)? I just want to know how I place the spring and such. Do you have a WE AK? If so, could you disassemble that part of the trigger box and post some pictures to give me an idea?

[Dimitri MdP]

If you are able to disassemble the trigger group so far, it should be fairly intuitive to find how to remove those parts and correctly set the spring.

[Sturm]

If you are able to disassemble the trigger group so far, it should be fairly intuitive to find how to remove those parts and correctly set the spring.

Alright, I've disassembled the entire trigger box (what *suitcase* have I gotten myself into?!!).

 

Part #103 is completely intact. The thing is, I have no idea what position it is supposed to be in. The position it was in had the short leg sort of clamped unto the bottom of the magwell, but it allotted no tension whatsoever. I cannot find anything online regarding its placement. Damnit...

 

If you have a WE AK, can you embed a picture of how your disconnector spring is seated?

 

[Dimitri MdP]

That spring is visibly broken. It lacks almost the whole leg