svenbodybuilder Posted August 24, 2006 Report Share Posted August 24, 2006 I recently purchased a CA m249 mk2 and realized that I don't know much about the support role in airsoft.I have spent hours reading up on the real life support role but I don't know how much of that actually corresponds to airsoft. In my personal opinion A thread strictly dedicated to the discussion of support weapons,tactics and gear would be vastly beneficial to this forum. My idea is for the more experienced members to give advice to the newer generation of support gunners(such as myself).Which might encourage newcomers to the role. Well I will start off with a question,how many bbs should I expect to use in a two 1/2 day op with 100+ people? Link to post Share on other sites
hsimoorb Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Well I will start off with a question,how many bbs should I expect to use in a two 1/2 day op with 100+ people? Well, I don't play support myself, but I have to assume the answer to that is; How many you got? Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I was thinking maybe 20,000+ Link to post Share on other sites
Merc Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I haven't played airsoft yet so, for saw gunners with experience, do most people keep their heads down when suppressive fire is used? How many bags of bbs do you find yourself using? Link to post Share on other sites
ECRRRainman Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I used to be a rifleman, and late last year I picked up a STAR M249 SAW mk2. The very first game I used it I was amazed at the difference having a single support weapon on the field makes! Yes, the enemy USUALLY keep their heads down when you are laying large bursts into their area. Granted any AK/m16/whatever can be a support role as long as you have the ammo and magazine for it. A support weapon is not only for suppression as I have heard the military call lmg's "the most casualty producing weapon the team has" due to the high volume of fire you can put on a target, same applies to airsoft Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 how much ammo do you usualy go through in your star though? Link to post Share on other sites
GlockGuy945 Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Key - R- Rifleman S- SAW G- 203 Gunner F- Fireteam Leader SL - Squad Leader Basic Squad and Fireteam Formations Wedge The wedge formation is the basic formation for most fireteams in open terrain. It will not remain a perfect wedge, as the team must manuever around objects. Terrain will dictate how tight the wedge will be, or the distance in which the fireteam leader feels he has the most control of his team. Move to Contact Moving to contact is an extremely simple thing, and virtually everything the infantryman does revolves around moving to contact. When moving to contact the squad/fireteam will move forward until fired upon. Once the squad/team makes contact, several things will take place. 1.) The squad/fireteam takes cover(going prone, or getting as low as possible behind hard cover), and yelling the 3 Ds. The three Ds are Direction, Discription, Distance(in no particular order). Ex. "12 O'Clock, 2 men, 150 meters!" This will be repeated by everyone as it moves down the line, so everyone has a general idea of what is taking place. 2.) The team who makes contact will get on line, and attempt to gain fire superiority by going into a cyclic rate of fire, and putting as many rounds downrange as possible. 3.) The squad leader will move foward and assess the situation. 4.) Once the squad leader has moved forward he will make one of several decisions: A.) Initiate squad attack B.) Break Contact C.) Get his entire squad on line, and call for reinforcements Squad Attack 1.) The squad will move to contact 2.) Once the squad makes contact, the lead fireteam will attempt to gain fire superiority. When the squad leader feels this has been accomplished, he will move forward to the lead fireteam's leader. The rear team will pull 360 degree security. The lead team will drop to a sustained rate of fire. When the squad leader gets to the team leader, he will assess the situation based on what the fireteam leader has reported, and determine if he is going to flank left, or right. 3.) After this decision has been made, the squad leader will move to the rear fireteam, and tell them what is taking place ahead, and what direction they will be flanking. In the above illustration, the squad leader has decided to flank right. 4.) The team will make an exaggerated manuever to the right, getting out of sight of the enemy, approximately 150 to 200 meters away from the enemy position. As the flanking team gets closer to that flank, the support by fire team(the lead fireteam) will pick up its rate of fire to a cyclic rate. The squad leader will center the team as best he can on the enemy position. Once he has done so, he will give the signal for "shift fire"(represented by the blue lines). When this signal is given the support by fire team will fire to the right of the enemy position as not to hit friendly troops if they get onto the enemy position. 5.) The flanking team will now begin to IMT(Individual Movement Techniques, or buddy team bounding) to the objective. The team will not open fire until the last possible moment, whether it be that they are discovered, or until the squad leader gives the order. They will continue to IMT through the "objective"(the enemy position) killing the enemy, and kicking the weapons of the enemy to the side. The team will keep moving until the reach the LOA(Limit of Advance), which is usually 35 meters(out of hand grenade range) from the objective. The signal for the LOA will be given by the squad leader, and will be repeated by everyone in the assaulting team. Once the LOA has been reached, the squad leader will give the "lift fire" command, which is firing on targets of opportunity if they arrise(Ex: an enemy combatant picks up a weapon). The assaulting team will pull security. 6.) The support by fire team will now pickup their weapons and equipment, and bound through the objective, until they reach their LOA. If a threat arrises, they will eliminate it. Once they reach their LOA, they will also pull security. 7.) The squad leader will now move to the apex of the "triangle" formed by the two teams at their LOA. He will then yell for an ACE report(Ammo, Casualties, Equipment), which will contain how much ammo each man has, if they are wounded(the team leader will physically check) and how much water each man has. The team leader will gather the required info, and report back to the squad leader. The squad leader will then report to his highers. Each team will redistribute ammunition, then pickup, and carry on with the mission. LINEAR AMBUSH(could also be considered a hasty ambush) 1.) The squad leader will set up an ORP(Operational Rally Point). This will be done approximately 200 to 300 meters away from the ambush point. Here, the squad will assign special teams, and distribute special equipment(claymores, anti-tank weapons for special equipment, EPW and Demolition teams) if it hasn't been done before the operation. This point will be the point in which the team will return to after the ambush. After this is completed the squad leader will take the security teams fireteam leader, and SAW, and conduct leader's recon. What the squad leader is looking for is the point in which he wants to conduct the ambush, and he is getting a general idea of where he wants to place all this men. Now, the squad leader will return to the ORP. 2.) The squad will now leave their ORP(and be counted out by the squad leader). When they arrive on site, the security teams will be sent between 50 to 75 meters from the rest of the squad on the left, and right of the ambushing fireteam. Their job is to ensure that the ambushing fireteam isn't discovered by enemy patrols or scout elements. As the enemy approaches the position they will also make sure that there are no rear elements that might be able to counter attack, or re-enforce the ambushed units. The ambushing fireteam will be hand placed by the squad leader. Claymore will also be placed by the squad leader where he feels they will be most effective. 3.) When the enemy squad approaches, the first element to sight them will send a count of enemy troops. As they approach the ambushing fireteams position, the squad leader will wait until they get into the kill zones of the claymore mines. When the squad leader is ready, the claymores will be set off. This initiates the ambush. The fireteam will open up with everything they have. They will fire until one minute has passed, and if they enemy is still moving, will continue to fire for another 30 seconds. 4.) Now the enemy has been eliminated. The ambushing fireteam will begin movement at a high rate of speed to the ORP, along with the squad leader. The squad leader will count his men coming in. 5.) After the ambushing team has arrived at the ORP, the security teams will be pulled in, and counted by the squad leader. Ammunition will now be redistributed, and the squad will carry on with the mission. REACT TO NEAR AMBUSH First, lets discuss the difference between a near, and far ambush. A near ambush is an ambush that takes place within hand grenade distance(35 meters). A far ambush is an ambush that takes palce outside of hand grenade range. Now, we will discuss what to do in case of a near ambush. Reacting to a near ambush can be done in several ways. 1.) While moving in a wedge formation, the squad recieves fire from their left flank. Someone in the team will yell the 2Ds(Distance, Direction). 2.) The squad will now attempt to get on line. In this case, the rear fireteam has been able to set up what will become a flanking manuever, and will now begin to pour on the fire. The first fireteam will now begin to assault through the ambush, and a shift fire signal will be given. 3.) The first fireteam will move to their LOA, and the signal for LOA will be given. The rear fireteam will move through the enemy position to their LOA. 4. Once all the teams have moved into position, the squad leader will move to the apex of the teams, and get the ACE report. The squad leader will report actions to the higher, ammo will be redistributed, and the team will keep moving. Keep in mind that if the ambush was properly executed, everyone will be dead. A far ambush can be less catastrophic on the squad than a near ambush, and reacting can be the same. In a far ambush, instead of assaulting through, the team may want to break contact, and bombard the enemy with artillery. I took this from another forum. I did all that stuff, from the drawings to discussion. I'm kinda jacking the thread, but you said tactics, so here are a bunch. Due to the editing methods on this forum, I cannot update it like I would on the other forum. EDIT: I didn't read completely, and didn't that this was for support weapons, but this includes everything. Link to post Share on other sites
ECRRRainman Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 how much ammo do you usualy go through in your star though? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Anywhere from 250-2500 an hour! It really depends on how much fighting you are involved with. For example on heavy contact missions I can expend about a box mag (2500 rounds) within about an hour, maybe a little longer. Keep in mind this is only if I am engaging the enemy on a near consistant basis with VERY little down time. Just imagine you expect to expend with a normal aeg, using semi auto and/or small bursts on visible targets, then multiply it by probably 5 to10 or so, just to be safe. Whereas a rifleman might make a 3-5 round burst at a target I usually let go a 8-12 round burst and normally a rifleman wont be using supressive fire like a support gunner does. Link to post Share on other sites
mAIOR Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Does your tactical vest acomodate drum mag pouches? if so, carry one in the weapon, another in the back and around 4~5 bags of bb to reaload. you'll find hard to become bulletless believe me. it should give you around 10K of ammo wich will sufise... as for tactics, if you're taking a building for instance, you must relly on your superior range and give cover to your advancing teammates... long bursts are the best and from my experience as a supressor, I can tell you it works... In a game I managed to held the opposite team inside a house (in a front where it had 4 windows) while my team mates casually neared the house to storm it... it was brilliant but really, each situation is a situation so you'll have to adapt and study Cheers... Link to post Share on other sites
Hillslam Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 20,000 rounds should suffice you on a 2 day op. Depends on how thick the fighting. ---------------- Glockguy's tactics are good if you have a squad you can actually practice with prior to events. Me I tend to fall into the pickup squads, so I always try to take 30secs with my usually newfound friends and tell them how best to use me. I tell them basically: keep me in visual sight, and when you want me to suppress an area, point with full four fingers (to distinguish from just pointing something out) and thats it. I also then stress when I'm laying suppression its not just for drama - as you won't tend to get kills during it - the enemy bunkers down. So when I'm suppressing I tell my squad to MOVE and get angles on them. THEY get the kills not me. I find if you don't take the time to tell them that what most players do when you let loose with a long volley is just to sit and watch the show. Which is ultimately a waste of your bbs and everyone's time. ----------------- Remember in airsoft concealment and cover are the same thing. Exactly as they are not in real life. Hide in tall grass in real life and the enemy may not be able to see you but when they let loose a volley in to the reeds you'll be just as dead as if you'd been standing in an open field. Hide in tall grass in airsoft and you might as well be in a concrete bunker. Grass stops airsoft bbs like chobham armor stops tankshells. So don't get mad if you send 1,000 bbs downrange into leaves and such and don't hit anything. Sure you can cut thru leaves with a long volley, but even so pretty much everything in the path to your target area will deflect a bb down to the lightest of leaves and bugs. Don't spaz because someone who's lieing behind a pile of twigs is not calling their hits: its perfectly possible they are NOT getting hit. But don't worry - what they ARE hearing is your hail of fire pinking off everything around them and they are pinned - meanwhile your riflemen are lining up the killshot. Feel good. Fear is as fun to inflict as kills. ----------------- The other thing you need to watch out for is tunnel vision. If you're suppressing an area, you WILL become a primary target. Any and all flankers WILL be going for angles on YOU. Keep your head on a swivel, or fire from positions with cover on both sides of you. ----------------- Always stay behind the main line. Never get sucked into going point. and you will always get asked to go first. I somehow always seem to end up in front of my teammates. A SAW gunner on Point is an oxymoron... You are pretty worthless up there: even with the STAR's light plastic weight you will never bring a MkII up to engage position faster than an opponent rifleman. Well, if you can carry your saw around in perpetual ready-carry position all day, go for it. You are stronger than I ever will be, and I'm no shrinking violet... ---------------- Having said all that - as a SAW gunner you have the unique ability to CREATE moving cover. That is, never underestimate the SAWs ability to make an otherwise concealed and covered enemy feel like they are naked in a spotlight on center stage. If you need to cross an opening, do not be afraid to just stand up and let a CONTINUOUS burst rake the known enemy position and do a walking advance. Watch how fast your squad moves out when they see you doing this. Massive moral boost. BUT - be SURE you know where your enemy is - you'll be the fool when you walk into the opening suppressing the enemy in front of you and the guy you didn't know about nails you in the side... Still, every SAW gunner has to do the walking cover fire once in their life. Few things better in airsoft. ---------------- Next is not tactics but technical bits. ---------------- Lubing - I lube the ###### out of my gearbox. Every event I shoot some lube into the gearbox. If I can't pull that off before an event I at least fire some into the qujick change spring release hole. There is no such thing as too much grease in a gearbox. ---------------- BUT... there IS such a thing as too much grease in the cylinder, hopup, magazines, etc. Cant' speak to the TOP and STAR (though I imagine they're the same) but on the CA if you greae up the the magazines and/or the cylinder/nozzle it will take you a good half day to get your hopup dried out enough that its actually working well. Hundreds even thousands of rounds. BE CAREFUL! if you do have to grease your mags and barrel and whatnot and are running with a wet hopup for hte morning keep an eye on your bb flightpaths. At some point in the day (say around lunchtime more or less depending on the # of rounds you fire) you'll notice your bb's start to rise dramatically. Thats the hopup starting to grip correctly. IMMEDIATELY dial back hopup. As in right now, even if you're in a firefight. The amount of hopup you had dialed in in the morning that worked for your wet hopup chamber and barrel and bbs is WAY TOO MUCH once the rubber really starts gripping. You run the risk of a jam. So take the 30 seconds and dial down that hop. --------------- As for lubing the mags, I do that maybe once a season. The barrel... if you can clean it without wetting the hopup do so before each event - pure silicon oil works, but if you have the time to dissassemble and such, nothing touches brass cleaner for an ultra smooth clean barrel. It DOES make a fps and accuracy difference. But, remembering you're a SAW gunner... accuracy is, well, not top priority. Reliability and volume are your targets. --------------- Winding - I always wind the box mag until I hear the internal spring in it pop pop popping. Meaning I've got a full wind of the spring. On my gun this is good for 100 or so rds before I have to start winding. If you don't wind that much you might dryfire a good % of your starting volley. I like the combo of spring+motor to feed bbs as opposed to just relying on the motor because no boxmags, not the STAR's not TOP's, not MAG's not CA's can keep up just on boxmag motor with a saw with a fast enough rof. BUT - winding always to spring tension will put more strain on your boxmag as you walk around waiting for an engagement with it wound up. If you do maintenance on your boxmag pay attention to the windaxlewhere the spring attaches to the axle. Thats where it'll let loose first. (All the box mags are the same design on this). Its not a big deal if the spring comes unattached to the axle or even snaps there, just guide some more spring into the axle grooves - its alot like feeding weedwhacker wire). ----------------- Also, occasionally give the feeder tube a wiggle as you're walking about. ----------------- Boxmags make great improvised bipods. Catridge pouches do not. ----------------- Spring guide - on the STARs when you use position 2 as its been called (basically shoving the spring guide into the box mag further so the catch catches on the springguide's back instead of its notch - btw you can do the very same thing on the CA and the PCG for the TOP, but there's no need to since they shoot the correct fps in the stoc position, heh - if you do do that, or even if you're in stock position... check to see if when you fold your rear stock up if it touches the spring guide. If not, you can stuff some clothe or such in there. Does a couple things - lowers the "Banging" of the springguide on decompression cycles - you carry more of the back reaction to the receiver and your shoulder, which will move less, meaning more of the decompression momentum energy of the spring is transferred to the cylinder's velocity = morefps. Its minute, so its up to you. I personally like the idea of the gun's body structurally supporting the springguide on it's center axis. Some may feel this is not a big deal or worth it. I've yet to have my gun fail in a single event over three hundred thousand rounds, however. Either way, take it for the anecdotal advice it is. ---------------- Inner barrel - this is a CA thing. Specifically a MkII thing. I wind some electrical tape around my innerbarrel at the end for a snug fit inside the outbarrel. Yes there are some spacers in the in a couple places down the length of the barrel to locate it, but after I locked my saw onto a shooting bench and checked it out I got much tighter groupings with that little bit of tape providing extra rigidity. Also - it helps keep water and dirt and mud out of the outer barrel's interior. Clean = good. ---------------- Allen wrench - Keep an allen wrench taped to the inside of the pistol grip inside the compartment there if your gun has it. That way you can change batteries bia the buttplate in the field without having to go back to your car for the tool. Use good tape, don't rely on the compartment door to hold it... ---------------- More as I think of it. Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Thanky you hillslam and Glockguy,I printed everything you guys just said.I realy like the idea of making cover,btw with this kind of ammo consumption what kind of bbs should I use?For my other guns I use ksc and exel bbs but for my ca249 I was thinking stealth .2s would be a good choice. Link to post Share on other sites
Hillslam Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 I use ksc perfects. Either in .25s or more commonly .2s. Some mix the weights for that SAW gunner spread simulation. I never use junk brands or reloads. Link to post Share on other sites
Harmless Posted August 25, 2006 Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 Wow. If nothing else this thread is cathartic for SAW gunners! Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 25, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 25, 2006 ya $12 for 4000 bbs isnt bad I will stick to ksc. Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 26, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 26, 2006 (wont let me edit my last post ) could someone please point me into the direction of an appropriate sling for a ca m249 mk2? Link to post Share on other sites
Crandall Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 (wont let me edit my last post ) could someone please point me into the direction of an appropriate sling for a ca m249 mk2? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Here ya go, just promise not to click on the bad guest links on ASNY anymore Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 thankyou vey much thats just what I have been looking for +1. and believe me I learned my lesson about the links on ASNY (my parents made me pay the $100 to the computer tech who had to remove all the virus ######. Link to post Share on other sites
maccarone Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Hi Guys I can say that it's few years that I'm playing as SAW gunner (started with top m60 ,keep going with top Minimi and now Star M249 para) and I completely agree with Maior and Hillslam. Quoting Maior ,if You can have a "ready to go" magazine in your vest, do it, as it can be very useful in some extreme combat situation, also His quantity of BB's is quite good ,for a 48hrs game 25000 bb's should be good ,but this depends a lot on who had organized the game and on how hard are the fights... Quoting Hillslam, do You play in a team or You play with different people each time? THIS make a BIG difference!! If You play in a team , may be it will take a few games to understand how your support can be used... In the other case ,is not that easy as You must "read" each time yours teammate.... Regarding the sling ,I have a blackhawk 3 point SAW sling and it works perfectly, also I use an IDF saw gunner vest ,it allow me to have two ammo mag's filled with fresh battery and 2500bb's each ready to be used plus the one already mounted on the M249, and in the back pack the rest of the bb's bags.... This topic is like wonderland for Us SAW gunners.. Ciao Ciao Cpt Kaos Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Well I ordered the sling(or one similar on ebay) that crandall suggested. I will post pics of my loadout when it gets here.I have a pretty pathetic loadout it connsists of woodland camo,a backpack,S&W shooting glasses,timberlands and thats about it.I saw an auction on ebay a while back for a vest with box mag pouches im going to look for a vender that sells them on a regular basis. Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Word of the Wise, KSC bb's suck, they dont jam or anything, but they are the weakest bb's i have ever used. They will shatter quite easily. It shouldnt be a problem unless someone is using Wire Mesh goggles. Link to post Share on other sites
mrblah Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 I found that with say a 5 man squad or 6 man squad, we stay in a X pattern, and each man is about 10 yards away from each other. If one man initiates contact or is ambush, the man in the middle will move to suppression, and so will one of the other legs of the X and the rest will flank. the original man being ambushed will suppress until KIA, or until the rest of the squad is flanking or suppressing. Obviously, there is always a squad leader, and he will dictate the flank, or to "peel back". Again this is only if you have ONE squad, and its pretty effective in airsoft. Link to post Share on other sites
maccarone Posted August 27, 2006 Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Hi Guys Here how We play in Big One Team : two scouts - left & right two riflemans scout cover - one for the left scout & one for the right scout SAW gunner team leader rifleman - guy that flank eventual enemy position SAW gunner - rear side cover regarding the equipment ,don't worry Sven ,it's not patethic, the most important thing that a SAW gunner need it's the... SAW!!!!!! So You already have that, You're already at a good point.... Actually I have the Star M249 also if I stated previously that I was gonna buy a Classic Army one, may be Hillslam remember it, but this was a Team choice. I'm looking forward to get the CA MKII that I'll modify in MK46, I want to say that both the weapons work wonderfully as in our team had the occasion to play with both of them.... Ok, now is time to go Ciao Ciao Cpt Kaos Link to post Share on other sites
svenbodybuilder Posted August 27, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2006 Word of the Wise, KSC bb's suck, they dont jam or anything, but they are the weakest bb's i have ever used. They will shatter quite easily. It shouldnt be a problem unless someone is using Wire Mesh goggles. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> well what bbs do you suggest I use?exels suck,AE bbs suck,cybergun bbs suck.what do you want me to use marui bbs and pay that price?lol ksc bbs seem like the best choice Iv never had a problem with them.And even if there weak and they break its not like Im going to re-use them Link to post Share on other sites
KeyChain Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 KSC makes the best bb's second to Maruzens. As for being a support gunner just listen to whatever your leader tells you to do and do it with lots of bb's. Link to post Share on other sites
Kousnik Posted August 28, 2006 Report Share Posted August 28, 2006 I have l96DMR and was going to invest in a drum mag, but decided against it and got several mid caps since it was more MILSIM, I'm not sure how good the idea was, since I will ultimatly run out of 600 rounds quicker than I will 2500. Should I get the Smag or just more Mid Caps? Link to post Share on other sites
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