BB comparison

[tunabreath]

So I guess we can define the longest weight/range combo as the highest weight possible, which can still maintain necessary airspeed such that it still receives optimum effect from the hop up (assuming maximum pressure from the hopup, which tends to be less stable, so less practically useful).

 

I'm actually really curious about this now... I wonder if someone could do some tests and extend the ATP... What is the maximum weight at a certain muzzle energy before ranges start getting shorter because the hopup can't keep the BB aloft?

 

Another thing to consider is elevation. I believe the ATP as some info regarding that as well, but I haven't take a thorough look yet.

[tome]

I was under the impression that ATP was plots theoretical data rather than empirical data. Am I mistaken?

[TDS]

I apologize for making an assumption that on an airsoft sniping forum, bb mass would be kept at a realistic weight, but obviously not.

 

You can get non-metallic rounds up to about .65g, 8mm's go up to .9g , they are just a pain to find

[sirrith]

762, this is what Scithe said:

once you pass a certain point of weight you begin to lose rather than gain.

 

and you said

not true *snip*

 

That is where you are wrong, and what I am trying to point out, albeit with an extreme example.

 

You are correct in saying that within a certain range of weights the heavier bb will travel further, but Scithe was correct in saying what he did.

 

Nowhere did you imply that the bb weight needed to be realistic, and since an extreme example always puts things into best perspective, that is what I used.

 

Therefore you are wrong in saying that heavier bbs always fly further assuming the correct amount of hop-up is applied.

 

 

[scithe]

So I guess we can define the longest weight/range combo as the highest weight possible, which can still maintain necessary airspeed such that it still receives optimum effect from the hop up (assuming maximum pressure from the hopup, which tends to be less stable, so less practically useful).

 

I'm actually really curious about this now... I wonder if someone could do some tests and extend the ATP... What is the maximum weight at a certain muzzle energy before ranges start getting shorter because the hopup can't keep the BB aloft?

 

Another thing to consider is elevation. I believe the ATP as some info regarding that as well, but I haven't take a thorough look yet.

 

sort of... its more complicated than that though because you cannot simply look at what gives the best range. you also have to consider that the heavier ammo will begin to drop off sooner than the lighter ammo. so as a rough example, take a gun shooting at 300fps.

 

.20's - 100ft flat trajectory. 125ft total range.

 

.25's - 100ft flat trajectory. 150ft total range.

 

.30's - 85ft flat trajectory. 175ft total range.

 

now, these ranges are by no means accurate, and have not been tested. it is simply there to give you an idea of what i mean in the above statement.

 

really though, as far as practicality goes, you should not try to get the heaviest ammo possible for your gun to get an increase in range and accuracy. keep in mind that you still want the bb to get there within a reasonable amount of time. also remember that while heavier = less affected by the elements, it also spends more time in the air, which gives more time for something to go wrong. so it is all about finding the middle ground, and then choosing your bb from that range. personally i find that ~300fps should be the slowest your gun should be shooting at. once you reach that point i would recomend not using any bb heavier than what gives the gun ~300fps.

 

also, as for elevation. yes. it does make a difference, as does temperature and humidity. they only have a noticeable effect with airsoft though when you get into the extremes of each. when i play here in MI my guns do not shoot quite as far, and with as flat a trajectory as they do when i play on a mountain in california.

[tunabreath]

Hehe, I meant elevation as in the angle you give the muzzle when you're shooting, noting that you can generally arc heavy BBs further than light ones.

 

I think the heavier BB drop off is a direct relation to its speed since while gravity accelerates all masses identically, it does so with different force and the hop up has to apply different amounts of force to different weights in response. The only things that should change the amount of hop up would be the rate of rotation and the airspeed, since a light BB and a heavy BB are essentially aerodynamically identical. So it is considered in the FPS vs weight idea.

 

Very true about speed, but as we are in the sniping haven, I'm guessing that most of us are angling for one shot kills as best we can. With that in mind, if you have a stationary target and a suppressed rifle (so that the sound won't cause the target to react), what weight per velocity do you want to have the highest chance of success at the maximum range of your rifle? I wonder, discounting velocity, is there a certain weight threshold at which wind effects are so reduced and/or predictable that the BB transit time is essentially negligible, as it can be perfectly accounted for?

What I mean is, what weight will get you to the point where the length of time it spends in the air (probability of something blowing it off course) is matched by its resistance to being blown off course? What is the sweet spot, where to one side, the heavier BB will take so long that it will be eventually blown off course, and the lighter BB will be blown off course because of its weight, despite the shorter transit time?

 

*edit @ scithe below, yeah, I guess we actually have to HAVE quality BBs above .30g before anything concrete can come out of this... quality... which is what this thread was originally about anyways

[scithe]

couldnt edit, but i took my digicon .36's out today and took some shots at a target about 6X4" standing from 200ft. the it was a bit hard to see the rounds at first, but after i gout used to knowing what to look for i noticed that a lot of them were hitting the mark exactly. there were quite a few fliers though. now, the bb's i used, i had filtered through a .01 barrel first, and that got rid of some of the bad bb's, but there are still quite a few fliers.

 

does anyone know where i can get either a brown label bag of these? or maybe how i could sort these out better so that there will not be so many fliers?

 

tunabreath - lol, ok. i see what you are saying about elevatio now

 

as for the "sweet spot" i use my g-spec which fires at 500fps, and i found .33's to be the best weight. however, as the siis ones were too inconsistent i switched to .36's. they take a little longer to get to the target than i would like. if they were more consistent i would use those along with ksc .30's depending on what kind of shot i need to make.

 

its really a matter of prefferance really. keep in mind that although many times you shoot at a still target, they may still move a bit for whatever reason in the time it takes for the bb to get there. not only that, but when you shoot at a moving target, you want to have a bb that will get there faster.

 

its really disapointing though that there are not really any decent bb's over .30g

[Bodgeups]

Scithe, have you tried using the uncoated variety of Digicon 0.43g bb's? At 200ft I find the accuracy to be quite acceptable for body shots. Using a 6.01mm barrel, PDI version 3 hop unit with a high-hop bar, and a Laylax hard-rubber bucking.

[you can`t shoot me]

dont believe me? fair enough. test it yourself. its the best way to go anyway rite? im sure you have, or can get hold of a cheap spring pistol firing at about 150-250fps. shove some .43's into there and shoot it.

 

The brown label bbs are called special order so i assume you would have to order them special from digicon if they even still do them.

 

By the way I have a kwc spring beretta which fires around 200 fps which can shoot 0.36 bb straight out to 100ft before dropping off. Certain guns if they have the correct hop setting will shoot further with heavier bbs than light bbs, although i have mostly seen this with gas guns. I do agree that. I do agree though that the power of the gun does effect the weight of bb used and the distance it fires, and most guns around that power will have trouble even pushing out a heavier bb never mind shooting it further than a lighter bb especially aegs.

[scithe]

Scithe, have you tried using the uncoated variety of Digicon 0.43g bb's? At 200ft I find the accuracy to be quite acceptable for body shots. Using a 6.01mm barrel, PDI version 3 hop unit with a high-hop bar, and a Laylax hard-rubber bucking.

 

the problem with such heavy bb's though, is that i will be shooting at only 450-500 fps, and with 43's i could take the shot, come back the next day and it would still not have reached the target

 

[The Bushman]

the problem with such heavy bb's though, is that i will be shooting at only 450-500 fps, and with 43's i could take the shot, come back the next day and it would still not have reached the target

 

The time between firing and pellet arriving can be used to dodge an accurate BB. Pellet time, is dependant on several things, and the main way to get round it with most folk is to up the power. However, there is another way around it (mainly for woodland gaming) you can just opt to silence your gun, then hope they do not hear the shot (so cannot dodge it, no matter how slow the pellets go).

 

Scithe I understand you play firefight based games and therefore, this is irrelevant.

 

However it is a good thing to consider about pellet choice .... do you go for heavy pellets for best accuracy in a high powered rifle or a lower powered one with lighter BB's (0.25-0.28g) and the silenced option? interesting stuff...

 

It could mean you get 1 good hit but are then hunted down..... or you pick several people off without being discovered.

 

Good Hunting

[scithe]

well i plan on suppressing my new rifle to the point where it cannot be heard at all from where i will be shooting to.

 

i know what you are saying about taking the silent shot so that the target will not move, and i do that sometimes and dont mind the slow shot for those cases. i have two problems though. 1. do the .43's get as flat of a trajectory at ~500fps as .36's? 2. at my new field it will not be firefight based like i play now. i will still be taking most of my shots during firefights though as i cannot afford a ghillie and do not want to be noticed (i play airsoft to stay alive and report back to my team about enemy positions more than getting "kills", so i would rather get few kills and no deaths than a lot of deaths and a lot of kills)

 

what i am thinking of doing though if .43's get a flat enough trajectory is marking off a point on the hop adjustment nob for .43's and also for .30's. then i will carry one mag with .30's, and one with .43's.

[Parsley]

well i plan on suppressing my new rifle to the point where it cannot be heard at all from where i will be shooting to.

 

i know what you are saying about taking the silent shot so that the target will not move, and i do that sometimes and dont mind the slow shot for those cases. i have two problems though. 1. do the .43's get as flat of a trajectory at ~500fps as .36's? 2. at my new field it will not be firefight based like i play now. i will still be taking most of my shots during firefights though as i cannot afford a ghillie and do not want to be noticed (i play airsoft to stay alive and report back to my team about enemy positions more than getting "kills", so i would rather get few kills and no deaths than a lot of deaths and a lot of kills)

 

what i am thinking of doing though if .43's get a flat enough trajectory is marking off a point on the hop adjustment nob for .43's and also for .30's. then i will carry one mag with .30's, and one with .43's.

 

 

i second this q.

[greg]

I've had a little experience with the .43's. They needed a lot more hop than sgms & were never as flat. @ 500fps, the sgm's were more effected by the wind, but I favored the flatter trajectory & better 'windless' groups. Having used my vsr @ 665fps, I suspect the heavier bb will be better at speeds above 500.

 

Re the silencing, you don't have to get it that quiet. If you have a min engage distance of 30m, you only have to get it quiet enough that they can't here it that far away. Bare in mind that any closer & they will here the 'zing' of a 500fps bb anyway, & other than lowering fps you can't silence the bb.

 

As you know, I've made one of my vsr's very quiet, but tbh it makes very little difference when shooting at a target 70m away, especially in the middle of a skirmish with aeg's going off all over the place.

 

While the gun may seem very loud to me, that's because the main source of noise (piston in cylinder) is right next to my ear!

 

 

Greg.

[The Bushman]

I play a game where there is perpetual silence (no AEG's going off) and even very quiet guns can be heard at longer rages, if you are alert, stationary or lucky. Unless your gun is super quiet, it will be heard here. Yes, the zing of the pellet is always apparrant at higher velocities as it goes past, but by then it is too late to dodge it. Also even at low velocities, the target may hear the pellet hit something else, if you miss and still react and take cover (but not know which direction you are in).

 

All things to consider when you are choosing pellets on the day. However, as Greg suggests 0.28-0.30g is often a good choice unless it is very windy or the gun is over 500fps. This is a compromise in pellet time, accuracy and flat range.

 

Good Hunting

 

 

 

 

[scithe]

dang, ok. so the .43's are not going to cut it.... however i might use them for slow shots so that i can take cover before they get there.

 

as for suppressing it, i want it to be as quiet as possible, not to prevent people from knowing they are being shot at, but rather to be able to take cover before they know they are being shot at. if they cant hear the rifle, then they cant tell where the shot is coming from (and ya, the hissing sound the bb makes as it moves through the air will tell them they are being shot at, but not in time as bushman said. personally i think that sound is good since it doesn't really give you away, and it'll scare the cr@p out of your opponent.) anyway, so a longer silencer would be necessary to do this. (i have more about this on thebauers site)

 

on the other hand though, i am trying to make this into a small, light, stealth type rifle which is why i will not be using a bipod or anything. so i want the rifle to be as short as possible. i guess i will make my decision after i get the outer barrel so that i have a feel for the length and see if the long suppressor is doable for length.

 

back on topic though bodgeups, what fps is your rifle firing at? can you give me more details as far as maximum range with these bb's as well as more details about their characteristics in flight? (anyone else with experience with these bb's, i would appreciate your input as well.)

 

o, also. does anyone know where ican get the guarder precision .28's in the u.s.? unless, does firesupport ship to the u.s.?

[Bodgeups]

I was wondering when the topic was going to come back on track . Scithe, my rifle has the following relevant upgrades:

 

PDI 6.01mm barrel, 395mm length

PDI Hop unit, version 3 (an older type, only has one hop arm instead of two like the newer variety)

Laylax Hard hop bucking (red colour)

Laylax three-element piston

 

Last chrono'd at 495-497fps using 0.2g.

 

I have a tree that's at the bottom of my garden roughly 180 feet away (I'm a size 12 foot and walked out the distance one foot in front of the other), and is roughly the size of a person in diameter. At 170 feet from a standing position and favourable conditions, I can hit the tree 8/10 times.

 

I've also marked out a rough spot on the tree at about 6 feet from the ground. A further 50 feet beyond the tree is a wooden fence that sits 2 1/2 to 3 feet high. On the times that I have missed the tree, I can hear the BB hitting the fence. Where abouts on the height of the fence they are hitting, I don't know. So, I have my scope zero'd for 150 feet to guarantee a body hit.

 

As for flight characteristics, well it's hard to judge. I believe the hop carries the BB on a flat trajectory out to 150-160 feet, as I see the BB start to dip before it hits the tree. It has to be an acute angle of descent, otherwise it wouldn't make it the 220 feet to the fence.

 

I'm not playing again until Sunday week, but when I next go I'll ask my site manager where he buys the BB's from.

[scithe]

sweet. thanks for the help. looks like a good option for shoot n' scoot tactics.... but i am assuming you have to tape your hop to get good enough lift for these rite? well if you tape the hop enough to handle these on maximum hop, will it still be able to fire .30's? or would there be too much lift on minimum hop?

[Bodgeups]

Ah I knew I'd forgotten something!

 

No I don't tape the hop - it's not possible with the PDI hop unit (or at least I don't think it is). Instead, I purchased a 'high hop' arm for the hop unit from PDI. The U-shaped groove that the hop nub sits in is slightly shallower than the normal hop arm, hence creating a deeper impression on the hop rubber.

 

In short, it means I can overhop the 0.43g bb's if I really want to

 

As for different weight BB's, well I really am a fan of the digicon BB's. Seeing as I have a regular supply of the good variety on hand, I tend not to vary the ammo I use. Infact, the only time I even swap from 0.43g to 0.36g is in dark or damp conditions, so I can see where I'm shooting. If only Digicon made a white version of the 0.43g bb

[Gerkahn]

I've got access to a windless environment that stretches to 35-40m, i'll laser measure out the distance within the week and see if i can setup a decent test, cant really afford to buy all of the suggested brands but i'd be happy to test the marui's, maruzens, digicons and guarders no problem, i'll get back when i've got some results

[greg]

o, also. does anyone know where ican get the guarder precision .28's in the u.s.? unless, does firesupport ship to the u.s.?

 

Just spoke to Nick @ Fire support, give him a ring, pending details, shipping to US shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

Greg.

 

[scithe]

Just spoke to Nick @ Fire support, give him a ring, pending details, shipping to US shouldn't be a problem.

 

 

Greg.

 

ah sweet. thanks man. i actually got in contact with epowersports about it though, so i may just go with them.

[scithe]

hey, i am getting ready to place an order for some bb's, and was curious as to how the digicon .36 graphites and .36 whites performed. according to the list the graphites were the second best of the digicons, but it does not give anything as far as their performance, so can anyone give any details as to their performance after being washed?

 

and trasher, you mentioned that the white .36's were extremely good out to 40m, exactly how good are we talking?

[Trasher]

Two 1.3cm (3 shot) groups at 35m is good enough?

But at 50m they are much worse than SGMs!

[scithe]

wow, that is very impressive. how do the guarder hpm's compare?

 

and bodgeups, dont forget to ask where your site manager gets the bb's from on sunday yes?