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sirrith

BB comparison

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More evidence that you don't have to pay through the nose for good ammo.

 

Looks like the SGM/Marui manopoly is falling.

 

 

Greg.

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if the cheap ksc bbs are shooting faster, they must be lighter, and if they are lighter, they will be more effected by wind.

 

Also with SGM bbs you know what your firing through your gun, you know they are decent quality bbs, with ksc and other less used brands, they could be less used due to worse quality controll, maybe their bbs they sell are less then perfect.

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if the cheap ksc bbs are shooting faster, they must be lighter, and if they are lighter, they will be more effected by wind.

 

tested them, have you?

 

I'm really starting to resent this attitude among airsoft snipers, that if you don't pay exorbitant prices for a handfull of bb's, you get *suitcasey* quality.

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if the cheap ksc bbs are shooting faster, they must be lighter, and if they are lighter, they will be more effected by wind.

 

Not entirely true.

 

I've recently had some BB's that added 10fps to my muzzle velocity.

 

I've just measured them to three decimal places on a digital scales and a shadowgraph against a couple other brands. The difference was not in weight but diameter. They maintain the same weight by having a lower pack density to compensate for the slightly larger diameter. The larger diameter means there is less air lost in the system between the BB and barrel interface.

 

It's not always weight differences.

 

Another brand I've recently used had fluctuations of over 40fps when chrono'd. When measured the weights were pretty much the same but the OD was all over the place.

 

These variations showed up on a Prometheous 6.03 barrel. The variation would probably drop to far smaller values as you get closer to the generally stock 6.08 barrels.

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Faster would sugest the kscs are lighter though, because 2 bbs, both .3g and both 6mm fired from the same gun (assuming the gun is consistent) will fire at the same speed, irregardless of manufacturer.

 

In an ideal world. Proably not even with the hop turned off though in this world. Surface finish has a certain amount to play. When you state 6mm diameter there are many different variations on 6mm as stated in my earlier post. BBs from the same manufacturer aren'[t always the same even.

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tested them, have you?

 

I'm really starting to resent this attitude among airsoft snipers, that if you don't pay exorbitant prices for a handfull of bb's, you get *suitcasey* quality.

 

 

2 bbs that are the same size and weight will perform roughly the same, when 1 bb shoots noticibly faster and straighter, then it MUST be different, its not like KSC perform some voodoo magic to make their bbs better then others.

 

In this case i was wrong about weight because when KSC say 6mm i assumed they mean 6mm, but sherlock said they are slightly larger, which would mean i would never use them in my sniper rifle.

 

when you have a finely tuned sniper rifle that can cost many hundreds of pounds, you dont want some ammo that isnt exactly what it says it is to damage the gun. with SGMs you know what your getting, and with the ammount of bbs that a sniper rifle fires during a skirmish (very little) the price doesnt realy matter as you get the quality that you pay for and a box of SGMs will last a fair while.

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well, while i think that the more expensive ammo will tend to get better results which is why it is so expensive, i agree with rhyno that you do not NEED more expensive bb's. in fact, i have not seen any of the "decent" brands like ksc, phx, or others be outperformed all that much by the more expensive types of bb's. so ya, the more expensive bb's are better, but they are not needed to have you sniper rifle shooting really well.

 

also, dist, i doubt using a cheaper, but still well liked brand of bb's will destroy your gun.

 

anyway, i did some testing on the ksc's today, on the drywalll test they proved to have a lower velocity than the maruis. i found that the only difference is that the maruis are dropping much faster than the kscs. this also explains the lack of accuracy since if the maruis are not keeping a steady trajectory at longer ranges then the slightest hint of wind will blow them off course. the only question then is why the maruis are dropping faster if out to 150ft the trajectory seems about the same only the maruis are moving a bit faster.

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In this case i was wrong about weight because when KSC say 6mm i assumed they mean 6mm, but sherlock said they are slightly larger, which would mean i would never use them in my sniper rifle.

 

when you have a finely tuned sniper rifle that can cost many hundreds of pounds, you dont want some ammo that isnt exactly what it says it is to damage the gun.

 

 

First of all sherlock said he had some BB's that were larger, not KSC. Read carefully or else you base your assumptions on false data which makes them irrelevant from the start. Not to mention they are assumptions and therefore not reliable info.

 

Secondly, i have a VSR that is well into the 1k club. Long tightbore, and all that "gucci" as you guys like to call it. I have fired roughly 5000 rounds through it, mostly target practice shots. I have never had a BB jam my 6.03 555mm tightbore. For the most part i used KSC perfect 0.30 ammo. I also fired quite a few Toyjet 0.25 BB's that i use in my M190 gbb for comparison.They are some weird japanese bulk BB brand that i ordered from uncompany:

http://www.uncompany.com/images/bb-toyjet-0.25bb_big.jpg

 

6$ for a 2500 bag.

 

Never a jam. Never a "damaged rifle" as you advocate.

 

As for the KSC's.. i did the 7meter grouping test that started this thread.

 

3cm/3cm for 30 shots. That is within the parameters of almost ALL the bb;s tested here. My camera was borrowed to a friend at the time so i didn;t post the results, but i can and will if necesary.. for all the good a 7m test does.

 

And i'm supposed to just sit here and listen to you say how those BB are "poor quality" and they will "destroy the gun", just because i'm not snobbish enough to pay 15-20 USD for 500 SGM's. Rubbish.

 

Keep your high end expensive "sniper ammo". It's good and all that, i'm not trying to trash it. But don't trash perfectly good bb's that some people might actually consider because they are not priced like they are made from gold flakes.

 

Forums are meant to be information resources that people come so they make an informed decision. No need to dismiss something out of hand, without even trying it, just because you have a preconceived ideea about it.

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No you dont NEED expensive ammo, and chances are KSC bbs will work fine for the majority of snipers, but ive read far more good things (and had good experiences myself) with SGMs, and price isnt realy an issue for me so i try to use the best ammo possible.

 

yes KSCs may perform with similar results, but im not willing to put a bb through my gun untill its gone through more testing and more people have reviewed it (and i dont just mean fired some shots at short range, i mean cutting the bb open and such to make sure its good quality inside, as well as outside finish and things like that. Or at the very least, checked the diameter and weight of the bbs in a good sized sample to see how often there are 'bad' bbs.

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Dist,

 

Instead of relying on the 'forum autopsies' you describe, why not try some alternative ammos?

 

As for 'destroyed guns',,,,,,,,????? Have you actually done that? :blink:

 

If you are worried about feed or barrel jams, you could always take the time to 'filter' the bbs through your barrel & manually load & unload a few mag loads before firing.

 

Not only will the results surprise you, but they will be first hand info, not just some stuff wot u red.

 

Amongst other things, my personal experience, posted previously, is:

 

Guarder high precision made .28's (Despite any micrometers, stethoscopes or radiation detectors) are about the same as sgms: they need a little more hop in my guns, 1/10 the price, 19/20 of them land as close to the target as sgm's (8" groups @ 70m).

 

& if you take the time to drop Digicons through a 6.03mm, by hand, about 1/10 jam!! A puff of air 'unjams' most of them but some need a rod! Digicons ain't cheap & what else is available over .35??

 

I had never read either of these facts anywhere, & was staggered to find them out for myself!! Especially after years of exclusively using sgm's. Not cheap when ya do 2000 of 'em in a day through an aeg on semi!!! :( (Long day, even longer story :nosleep: )

 

I'm not telling anyone what ammo to use, but I would encourage any one not to dismiss anything without giving it a go..............within reason :P

 

 

Greg.

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its not just jams im talking about when i say damaging the gun, ive had a bb break in half on me once before, and once a bb breaks or shatters inside the gun, it can get wedged into the most annoying places to get it out of, and if you dont notice that no bb left the barrel on the previous shot, you may reload not realizing a split bb is still in the gun (lucky i realized this when it happend to me, as i was target shooting at the time and noticed that i couldnt see the shot on the target, so knew something wrong).

 

after cutting some of the bbs open i noticed that the inside of the bbs wasnt solid, they had small air bubbles in (which would not only put the balance of the bb of, but alows cracks to form easier), i think these were excell bbs, not entirely sure.

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would not supprise me if they were excel, excel is a cruddy brand. their not as bad as matrix though. but both of those brands have pretty bad reputations. airsoft elite and ksc on the other hand have pretty good reputations. i am supprised about the digicons jamming though. thanks for that info greg.

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I used excel in aegs under 350 with no problem, but would never have considered them for sniping. I have given them a go, but didn't stick with them, preferring bbs around the .3 mark.

 

 

Greg.

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only reason i used them in the first place for sniping was when i first got the gun they were the only bbs i had available, and i needed to test the gun to make sure it was working properly, and since tanaka dont ship a small bag of test bbs with their guns like TM and such do, i had to use whatever was at hand.

 

For an AEG bb though, excel arnt bad, but they just dont have the quality needed to be used in a sniper rifle.

 

anyway, in the end im sticking with SGMs, they have served me well for a long time and so maruzen have rightfully earned me trust in their BBs.

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bbup_wc.jpg

 

bbup_dc.jpg

 

bbup_rc.jpg

 

 

 

bbup_acc.gif

 

Here is the full updated review. It's for .20 gram bb's, but i see no reason why results should be different for the higher weight:

 

http://www.airsoftmechanics.com/home/content/view/13/29/1/0/

 

Now that, Dist, is a serious testing and review. Not the usual : "if it's cheaper then it MUST be different weight/different size/poor quality control" that most SGM fanboys exhibit.

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Now that, Dist, is a serious testing and review. Not the usual : "if it's cheaper then it MUST be different weight/different size/poor quality control" that most SGM fanboys exhibit.

 

i said what i said because 2 objects of exact same size, weight and shape (the prodjucts themselves say they are round 6mm bbs of same weight) then they should travel the same when put under the same forces. the fact they didnt travel the same shows that they were different. better/worse the SGM isnt my point i was trying to make.

 

also, i find it a little strange that accord to that size consistency chart, the maxi bbs have better size consistency then even the marushin themselvse claim (they claim 5.96mm +- 0.01mm)

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well that +- 0.01 by definition could be there or not. Exceeding it would mean they lied in their marketing. Lower than that means bravo to their fabrication and QC.

that is there as a safety buffer. You want as large a buffer as you can get, without damaging the image of your product. If they made their buffer 0.005 it would be harder to stick with it, and more damaging to their image if they didn't. same if they set the value at 0.05. that would show they are unsure of their fabrication and QC.

 

Putting a 0.01 and having their bb well under that margin gives them the best image.

"well they say their margin is 0.01, but rest assured they don;t even get close to it.. just test for yourself"( random forum person talking about their bb's).

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Super info........................of course how it relates to sgms or guarder high precision made is debatable, so I'll continue to rely on first hand information.

 

Blaster .28's arrive at AA next week. Guess whos going to give 'em a go?

 

Irrespective of cost, Shape, smell, or anything else. The only thing that matters to me is how accurate they are through my gun!!

 

No chart can tell me that, unless I compile it. :Zzz: I don't believe everything I read in the sun either!! :D

 

 

Greg.

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Flea whats the distance between the rifle and the target?

A roughly measured 35ft. Im level with the target

 

What film is that sequence with the truck from? I should probably know.... :whistling:

shooter! wooo! :D

 

It was a pain in my head trying to dial in a scope that was mounted to, of all things, an airsoft gun...but its close enough to depend on. Unfortunately I would never have the chance to engage a target at 35ft..Im thinking of running a test at 100ft.

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Yes, Yes. Please test at at least 150 feet.

 

Let's face it, as I've said before, tests at anything below that are interesting, but I'd rather know how the performance is at 'practical' ranges.

 

Where I snipe we have a minimum engagement range of 30m, aeg strike range is 50m & most of my targets are at 60m+.

 

So as a sniper, knowing you get a 5cm group at 10m doesn't count for poop!

 

I know in theory a tighter group at a short range should equate to a tighter group at all ranges............But in practice! :blink: We've all seen those guns that go straight as an arrow for 20m & then suddenly vear off, in a different direction after that, every shot..............no matter how much you play with the hop :(

 

 

Greg.

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