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sirrith

BB comparison

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ok, so i went out to shoot today with the siis bb's. there was very little wind, and so here are my results.

 

this first shot group was taken from 30 feet. the first shot group on the left consisted of 5 rounds. the second shot group on the rite consists of 2 rounds (the third and sixth round of a seven round mag) i do not understand why there were the two fliers, but somehow they wound up in the same place.

 

the left group is .5" (12.7mm) X .74" (18.796mm) - (i know i mislabeled that on the target)

 

the rite group is .25" (6.35mm) X .5" (12.7mm)

 

Photo6.jpg

 

i figured maybe the fliers were a result of a dirty barrel. after cleaning it i moved out to 47 feet out and took a 4 shot group. this group was unbelievably tight, and had no fliers. the group was, now here it is, dont faint: .5" (12.7mm) X .5" (12.7mm)!!!

 

Photo7.jpg

 

anyway, i am nothing less than impressed. these bb's are by far the best i have ever used.

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the first bag (the ones in the test) i bought from cobraairsoft just before they went out of stock. seeing that almost no one had them, and being so impressed with the performance, i just bought two more bags from d2_llc on ebay.

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hu.... well i emailed tokyo-model asking if and when they will be getting them in stock, and they asked me if i want siis .30's instead :P so they either did not understand the question, or are trying desperately to sell.

 

email around and see if they are going to ever come back in stock, and if so, when. unfortunately i think they have been discontinued..... either that or you just have to wait for a new wave of them to come in.

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Maybe if Blaster & Guarder raised their prices, more people would give 'em a try. :P  (The Stella, 'reassuringly expensive' approach!)

 

Too true!

I've never heard of Blaster...I'll look for them.

 

KSC Perfect 0.30 BB's?

 

These are on my to do list along with the siis .33g.

 

siis .33g bb's...accurate, consistent, stable in flight

 

Thanks scithe for the practical tests, posting your results plus sources for them.

 

Personally I think the practical tests (velocity variance and accuracy) are the most defining, but also have the highest variables. Gun type (and mod's), gas type, hop-setting, temperature, conditions (wind), shooter and shooting set-up (sand-bags/gun rest/gun vise) introduce more factors than a set of calipers, chrono and an infrared thermometer.

 

A key point is that the bb is spinning.

 

If it's not balanced you get flyer's. The faster it spins the more pronounced the effect, like the tire on your car when you throw a weight. That's why in the long-run I think practical tests (despite the difficulty) will lead to determining the "best" or "most consistent" bb...at least until the manufacturer's material supplier goof's up, the QA guy gets a cold, tooling wears out, or........

 

Oh, and Scithe...your PDI barrel is to do another one of these, but using the 6.01mm instead of the KM 6.04. Then I'll try some practical testing too (if I can make a pistol vise that works~).

Digicon13.jpg

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Sorry to go off topic, but is that a maruzen m93r nbb in that picture? If so, how is it?

 

It's it's very similar to their P99 but not as well balanced, inconsistent trigger pull (tension loads up towards end of pull), heavier with higher gas and bb capacity, longer stock inner barrel (faster). I was already using .30's & .36's in the Digicon's. After doing some mods' on the M93R I decided a bb heavier than .25 would be better, so I started looking closer at the bb's.

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true that all there are manyt variables in testing velocity and accuracy, but that is why i like to give as many details about my setup, outside conditions, and other such things as much as i can. i also like to limmit these variables as much as i can by waiting shooting at the most oppertune moments and shooting from a comfortable rested position where i know i can hit dead accurate if the ammo can, and i do several tests to confirm this.

 

anyway, i finally got to use my g-spec in a skirmish... we were doing sort of a SWAT type scenario with a hostage situation in a house (100ft from my position). i was hiding under and behind a van so that i could not be seen due to the vans shadow. plus only my rifle could be hit from the house and not me unless there were some freak ricoshay.

 

anyway, the hostage taker peaked out the window so that only 2-3 inches of his face was showing through the window. there was no wind, it was about 85 degrees fahrenheit and pretty humid out (sorry, no exact measurements for that) the bb hit directly on point of aim and ended the standoff :D

 

anyway, i found that this one guy on ebay is selling them (not sure how many bags he has left though) so since i am pretty sure i cant post it here, feel free to pm me for his ebay ID (he is very good, i ordered from him before and was, admittedly, a bit of a pain :P, but he handled it very well)

 

Too true! 

I've never heard of Blaster...I'll look for them.

These are on my to do list along with the siis .33g.

Thanks scithe for the practical tests, posting your results plus sources for them. 

 

Personally I think the practical tests (velocity variance and accuracy) are the most defining, but also have the highest variables.  Gun type (and mod's), gas type, hop-setting, temperature, conditions (wind), shooter and shooting set-up (sand-bags/gun rest/gun vise) introduce more factors than a set of calipers, chrono and an infrared thermometer.

 

A key point is that the bb is spinning. 

 

If it's not balanced you get flyer's.  The faster it spins the more pronounced the effect, like the tire on your car when you throw a weight.  That's why in the long-run I think practical tests (despite the difficulty) will lead to determining the "best" or "most consistent" bb...at least until the manufacturer's material supplier goof's up, the QA guy gets a cold, tooling wears out, or........

 

Oh, and Scithe...your PDI barrel is to do another one of these, but using the 6.01mm  instead of the  KM 6.04.  Then I'll try some practical testing too (if I can make a pistol vise that works~).

Digicon13.jpg

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Earlier on in the thread I saw that sirrith had improved grouping with hop turned on. When i tried it myself i found that i was getting 26-32mm square groups with hop off and 35-48mm groups with hop on at approx 6.5 meters. BBs used were Straight white 0.36g in 10 round groupings, group sizes off the top of my head so i'll get more precise numbers when i get home.

 

What do most people experience? Better groups with hop on or off? My rifle setup is M700 AICS, BGS HOP (full set, not modified Tanaka), stock barrel. Shooting from prone with rifle supported.

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i find that it depends on the bb. some types of bb's will get better with the hop on, while others wont. another thing is to make sure you ave a good hopup rubber, and that the bb's used with it are as perfectly round as possable. straights are known to be somewhat inaccurate because they are not "perfect", so the hopup may just be increasing the effect of this flaw.

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And i thought straights were supposed to be good!! bummer!

 

I also used KSC Perfect .30 in this test and they performed noticably worse than the straights. I was under the impression that KSC Perfects were supposed to be good.... are they rubbish too?

 

I'll post up my targets to add to the thread when i get back home.

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well ksc .30's are ok. nothing special, but they get the job done. what fps is your rifle shooting at? cause at a higher fps the heavier bb may perform better just because of the weight.

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Last i checked they were shooting about 460 at 19 degrees ambient temp. So at home at about 22-23 ambient (according to the thermostat of my central heating in the house) I'd guess about 500 or so.

 

Would the weight really make that much of a difference at 6.5 meters?

 

Do my groupings sound bad for a Tanaka with standard barrel and BGS hop? Am I expecting too much from my rifle?

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Im pretty sure the reason I got better groupings with hop turned on is because my hop is a v-hop, which helps keep each bb in roughly the same position, whereas in a single-point hop, the bb can move around slightly more to the sides, giving less consistent hop.

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tome: 500fps may be too much for the .30's to shoot as well as the .36's, but i didnt take into account the range only being 6.5m... i will do some tests with my vsr comparing the ksc's to a few other bb's (dont have any straights though) and let you know what i come up with. unfortunately it will only be a very rough estimate since a lot of it deppends on the bb's brand and quality rather than weight, but maybe it will help.

 

as sirrith said, the v-hop will give you greater accuracy with the hop on, but there are some other upgraded hopup rubbers that will give better accuracy on than off. unfortunately i have no idea what the bgs hop system is like, so i cannot help you there, but if you are getting better groupings with it on, then it must be pretty good.

 

if you are using a stock barrel though, then the groupings should not worry you. i dont have much experience with tanaka rifles, but 2-3" groupings at 20ft are not that bad for a stock barrel. because of a bb's shape, it is hard to make them shoot that accurately, so dont be too hard on your rifle. a .01 barrel should give you the grouping sizes you are looking for though :)

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After doing some work on my VSR, I ran a .29 SGM vs .30 Blaster test at 35 meters. Barrel is 430mm Laylax w/ Firefly rubber.

 

With the SGM, rifle was printing inside a 5" circle while the Blaster was all over the place. It was highly inconsistent, it's NOT recommended for sniping!

 

It's a shame, since Blaster produces great .20s and .25s. :(

 

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After doing some work on my VSR, I ran a .29 SGM vs .30 Blaster test at 35 meters. Barrel is 430mm Laylax w/ Firefly rubber.

 

With the SGM, rifle was printing inside a 5" circle while the Blaster was all over the place. It was highly inconsistent, it's NOT recommended for sniping!

 

It's a shame, since Blaster produces great .20s and .25s. :(

 

out of curiosity, what velocity does your rifle shoot at?

cause .29 sgm's in mine at ~500fps are all over the place (litterally, they will go off course by over 50ft in any direction) but with my 400fps setup (same rifle and internals, just with a different spring) the .29 sgm's are dead accurate and can reach out to some very impressive ranges.

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Hi guys,

 

Question regarding V-hops. I've got an APS2 running at ~500fps, with a PDI 6.01mm barrel and a PDI version 3 hop unit). I'm currently using a Laylax Hard type hop rubber and bucking, which provides fairly stable consistency when using 0.43g bb's, but I'd like try out a V-hop rubber. Can anyone recommend one, and where I can buy it?

 

Thanks :)

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My rifle is shooting 558fps w/ .20s no noticeable variance in velocity.

 

 

We ran another test on Monday w/ two upgraded VSRs (G-spec @580fps and Pro Sniper @558fps) using .29 SGM, .30 Marui (equal performers) and the white .36 Straight.

 

The .36 Straight was AMAZINGLY accurate at 35 meters (producing two 1.3cm diameter 3 shot groups!!!), but performance got worse very quickly after 40 meters w/ the hard hopup dialed up to the max. 50 meter performance was BAD group-wise. (Contrary to this, same day I managed to get an one shot kill at a laser ranged 69 meters in moderate winds) This BB also leaves a lot of white dust in the barrel. I think it's an excellent choice up to 40 meters, since you can take out small targets with pinpoint accuracy or compensate the wind effectively. We did not tape the hard hopup for more backspin, I'd like to hear opinions from .36 users about this.

 

The .29/.30 was a better general performer, it produced 7-8cm wide 3 shot groups at 35 meters, and 20cm 15 shot groups at 50 meters. These BBs leave no fouling in the barrel. Steady performance on all ranges, but more sensitive to wind.

 

It was also interesting to see no noticeable performance difference between a stock g-spec and a laylax 430mm tightbore.

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hehe, those straights sound exactly like the siis .33's. dead accurate, but leaves crud in the barrel. have you tried pressing the straight bb tighly between your fingers and moving it around to rub off some of that extra powdery coating? because i started doing that with the siis's and found that it gave them more consistency at longer ranges (i can now get head shots with them at 200ft, and have about an 85% chance of getting head sized groupings at 250ft) so maybe the same will help your straights?

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Fire support were flogging firefly hops last time I checked.

 

I don't 'tape' hop rubbers, I whip them on with silk. The same technique used to attatch the rings to fishing rods. I find it works well. It doesn't increase accuracy, per say, but it does effect the gas efficiency, raising the fps. In one example I did, fps went from 450 to 535fps.

 

 

Greg.

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