Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

ColDaz

Infra Red visible laser

Recommended Posts

What sort of games are you playing where someone could shine a laser in your eyes long enough to do damage?

 

:zorro:

 

As far as I'm aware I'm not playing any risky games. I know I've been exposed to Class II visible lasers, but they're not an issue because:

a - they initiate a blink reflex,

b - they can be seen.

 

Did you read the extract above yet? It does refer to exposure times, and I have linked to the main article, which also refers to the different Classes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Interesting take on this subject.

When we take some BBs to the face, as is bound to happen sometimes, we duck or cover up in some way - we can react to what we can perceive. The same applies to Class II lasers - we blink to protect our eyes. A similar perception/reaction will not happen with invisible lasers.

 

Here are a couple of relevant extracts from Basic Laser Safety

 

"A. Infrared (IR) - 760nm-1 0,000nm; Slightly longer than the red end of the visible spectrum. It is emitted by all "hot" bodies or objects, which emit heat.

 

Infrared A (IRA) - 760nm-1400nm

Infrared B (IRB) - 1400nm-3000nm

Infrared C (IRC) - 3000nm-10,000nm "

"II. Eye Injuries

 

A. Effects Of Laser Light On The Eye

 

Injuries to the eye occur at much lower powers than injuries to the skin. Eye injuries are more likely to have permanent effects including reduced vision or blindness.

 

B. Parts of The Eye

 

Cornea- Outer layer; withstands mild assaults and heals quickly, usually within 24 hours.

Lens- A flexible issue that changes shape. It focuses light to the back of the eye.

Iris- Controls the amount of light entering the eye.

Pupil- Opening in the center of the eye through which light passes. The size changes in different light conditions.

Retina- Light sensitive area at the back of the eye. The lens focuses the image on the retina, which sends electrical signals to the brain.

Fovea- The most sensitive part of the retina. It is responsible for detailed vision.

Visible and near infrared radiation are absorbed chiefly by the retina and the fovea. They make up the retinal hazard region of the optical spectrum. The retina can undergo thermal, photochemical, and acoustic effects. Blind spots can occur. Irradiance is partly dependent on the pupil size. The size of the pupil determines the amount of laser light entering the eye. It is best to work in well-lit areas so the pupil size is small.

 

C. Exposure Duration

 

Exposure duration affects retinal injury. Short exposures of < 10 seconds and > 1 µsec will cause thermal injury. The injuries occur when energy is absorbed faster than ft is removed. Exposure of < 1 µsec will cause acoustic injuries. The heat causes the irradiated area to expand and tear.

 

Long, low, intense exposures cause photochemical damage.

 

D. Other Effects

 

Ultraviolet A (UVA) and infrared A (IRA) are absorbed by the lens that then undergoes photochemical damage. UVA causes cataracts and premature aging of the lens and IRA causes cataracts."

It seems people aware of the dangers work on invisible lasers in brightly lit conditions; this is to shrink the pupil size in order to minimise any damage that might occur. Of course this Airsoft discussion revolves around use of infrared lasers in the dark (hence the nvg comments) when our pupils will be at their most dilated, and therefore risking increased/quicker damage.

 

As others have said, my analogy stands because the duration of light hitting the eye would be breif. So yes in a lab where this laser could aligned to your eye to cause damage yes it is dangerous, in an airsoft game where someone's rifle might be pointed at your face for a few milliseconds and where the beam might cross into your eye for a few nanos the thought that this could cause damage in that time is ridiculous. Also no information you have provided has give us a power or range that it was fired from, in an atmsophere from, a distance a weak 8mW laser will be dissapated and the actual strength of the laser when it hits the eye will be lower. It seems like you are looking for Industrial (higher power in the 16mW+ range) infrared laser saftey as opposed to commercial or civil (lower power.) Or let me put it in simpiler terms, If this laser was as dangerous to our eyes I doubt they'd be able to sell it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lol! I call ###### on everything PJH has said in regards to airsoft.

 

Bottom line.

 

That laser is perfectly fine to use in airsoft.

 

Edit: Unless You're being a twat with it  ;)

 

So is it just your belief that it is fine to use in Airsoft, or do you actually have any facts & reasoning that you could share?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
So is it just your belief that it is fine to use in Airsoft, or do you actually have any facts & reasoning that you could share?

 

What facts and reasoning do you have? You are digging up safety info for lasers that are far more powerful than this one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
As far as I'm aware I'm not playing any risky games. I know I've been exposed to Class II visible lasers, but they're not an issue because:

a - they initiate a blink reflex,

b - they can be seen.

 

Did you read the extract above yet? It does refer to exposure times, and I have linked to the main article, which also refers to the different Classes.

did YOU read what everyone is saying? i understand and agree with you 100% that these lasers are potentially dangerous and moust be used with caution. BUT this is being mounted on a PISTOL and i dont know if you've tried aiming with a pistol but it is damn hard to keep it steady for periods of time, EXPECIALLY at a target as small as an eye.

 

Exposure of < 1 µsec will cause acoustic injuries

maybe i'm still a bit tired, but isn't this saying that it will cause hearing loss?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To conclude:

This laser is fine.

 

PJH is probably Almighty come back to haunt us.

 

Jacob left school and went on to become the leader of some cult in lowa. He tried organising a mass suicide. Only problem is, he drank the Kool-Aid first and, well, everyone else just kind of changed their minds.

 

Some people will argue the toss about anything, no matter how improbable.

 

:zorro:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
What facts and reasoning do you have? You are digging up safety info for lasers that are far more powerful than this one.

 

 

If you look at my posts you can see that I have provided extracts, links and subsequent reasoning. I do not have an entrenched position from which I will not change, but it will take facts and reason to make me change my opinion, not beliefs and/or rationalisations.

 

I have not been 'digging up safety info for lasers that are far more powerful than this one' - really, that's a pretty feeble accusation. I have, in fact, been digging for any relevant info at all; if I could have found precise info on this particular laser I would have posted it, and I have followed up on the link Sale provided. You'll notice that I have been asking for people to post facts and links!

 

If you had a link that showed infrared lasers (or even this one in particular) as being as safe as the Class II lasers we currently use I'm sure you would have posted it by now.

 

In the absence of any links or technical info from those saying infrared lasers are safe for Airsoft, I can only conclude that, if you have searched, you have not found anything to support your assertions. (I'll put a yet in here - the web's a big place.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i will find a source to cite about this but i believe most plastics / polycarbonates absorb infrared wavelengths, thus someone wearing goggles is also protected from infrared laser beams

you could possibly check this by trying to view trough a goggle(at a hot metal object??) with your NVG's , see if there is any difference with or without goggles...

 

in the meanwhile, i'll try to find a good source to confirm this (or if i'm wrong, i'll correct myself :) )

 

edit: so far, wikipedia only turned up

"For practical applications, the efficiency of the infrared heater depends on matching the emitted wavelength and the absorption spectrum of the material to be heated.

 

For example, the absorption spectrum for water has its peak at around 3000 nm. This means that emission from medium-wave or carbon infrared heaters are much better absorbed by water and water-based coatings than NIR or short-wave infrared radiation.

 

The same is true for many plastics like PVC or polyethylene. Their peak absorption is around 3500 nm. On the other hand, some metals."

 

so CO² laser(about 95% of infrared lasers) will be absorbed by water and most plastics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
To conclude:

This laser is fine.

 

Yeah - " Trust me, I know what I'm doing. " - where have I heard that before?

 

PJH is probably Almighty come back to haunt us.

 

Jacob  left school and went on to become the leader of some cult in lowa. He tried organising a mass suicide. Only problem is, he drank the Kool-Aid first and, well, everyone else just kind of changed their minds.

 

Not me. I suppose it could be a compliment, but it looks more likely to me that that guy had a bad rep - and you want to link me to him? I'm sure you have your reasons.

 

Some people will argue the toss about anything, no matter how improbable.

:zorro:

 

I think life is too short to argue over unimportant issues, but my take on this is the same as if the subject was the use of over-powered Airsoft RIFs, or if someone was encouraging the use of substandard eye-protection. I'm arguing because I think this is a safety issue, but will happily give up if someone proves, or provides strong factual evidence to suggest, that it isn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There isn't any decisive document which states these lasers are good for airsoft.

 

But, your document, speaking of a laser over the power levels of this particular one, states that the duration required for damage is 10 seconds. The chances of this laser being shined into someones eye for 10 seconds or more is nil. Even at 5 yards most airsoft pistols get grouping of 1-2 inches, even if you were trying to aim the laser directly into an opponents eye for 10 seconds, it isnt possible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
There isn't any decisive document which states these lasers are good for airsoft.

Not so far, but G&P may email regarding classification and/or testing

 

But, your document, speaking of a laser over the power levels of this particular one, states that the duration required for damage is 10 seconds.

 

The specific quote says under 10 seconds, but greater than 1 µsec.

" Exposure duration affects retinal injury. Short exposures of < 10 seconds and > 1 µsec will cause thermal injury. "

Also, I didn't see the reference to the power that you mention - " your document, speaking of a laser over the power levels of this particular one " - would you point that out to me please.

 

The exposure time is important - thanks for the prompt. Here's another link OSHA Technical Manual:

 

I haven't read through all of this yet - that will have to wait until tomorrow - but this does have:

- info on classifications;

- table of LASER CLASSIFICATIONS--SUMMARY OF HAZARDS

- may refer to 'standard for personal protective equipment '

(OSHA Regulatory Practice. At the present time, OSHA does not have a comprehensive laser standard, though 29 CFR 1926.54 is applicable to the construction industry. A standard for personal protective equipment (Subpart I) may apply in some cases. )

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here is a definition of the classifications of lasers. Note that there is no distinction for IR lasers, as apart for the absence of blinking reflex issue there is no difference in the danger of a laser. This danger comes from the power of the beam, and the surface it covers: the smaller the beam, the more concentrated the power is. So a low powered laser with a highly focused beam (very small impact point) would be more dangerous than the same power on a bigger beam. I haven't calculated the power/impact surface for our particular laser as I'm a lazy *albartroth*, have fun if you feel like it. It seems quite powerful, but the beam spot is relatively large.

Here is another link to a medical study on the danger of handheld "presentation" lasers such as those we used to annoy and blind each other in the classroom.

On another note, as everyone on a field is supposed to wear eye protection, mostly masks with plexi, this would dampen the effect of the laser on the eye, acting as a prism (deflexion and dispertion of light) Of course this wouldn't work with mesh masks... You can also find prismatic goggles/glasses for use with building lasers for quite cheap.

 

To conclude, you won't know about the safety of this model before you calculate its power, and maybe ask to an eye doc about it. Anyway, the fact that it is meant to be mounted on a pistol will definitely reduce any risk of eye exposure. But the decision is up to you and your mates.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hmm... We have the assumption that it's safe, and concrete evidence that in some cases lasers may be harmful. Can I get a volunteer to shine that thing directly in his eyeball? And for how long would you be willing to do it?

 

I'd rather research the subject instead of just assuming that it's safe. 8 mW is quite a lot, usually the "pointers" are less than 3 mW and even gun sights are around the 5 mW mark. PJH is raising an important point here, and erring on the safe side. Since when is that a negative approach towards new things?

 

-Sale

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Judging by what's been posted so far, PJH's argument is still more substantiated than any of the others.

 

Just keep lasers out of airsoft, and there's no issue to begin with! ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back somewhat more on-topic-er, I seriously doubt that it's a true IR laser. Especially on eBay for £50, and made by G&P. This is most likely just a green laser, as that would fall in line with the price, manufacturer, and power level. I don't know about the UK, but in the US IR lasers are MIL/LE only, which means that it's more than likely the same across the pond. Even if a normal citizen were to get the required paperwork to own one (which isn't that difficult), the laser itself would cost upwards of $1000.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

is now a good time to say that wikipedia is NOT recognised as a valid resorce for anything. a guy at uni used it soley as a resorce and failed asa result. not from what he said but from how it was backed up.

 

as it can be modified by anyone regardless of there actual qualifications or even there knolage of a subject.

 

that said the use of lasers in any environment where there is a risk of any interface between a laser and a human eye needs very carefull risk assesment regarding the power of laser used and the risk of exposure.

 

now people have said that its not inteded to get in peoples eyes but at the end of the day there is NO WAY at all to ensure that it doesnt happen.

 

an IR illuminator would be a muich better way to enhance any NV gear

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More money than sense is a term that applies here IMO.

 

All of this high tech gizmology for what? All it takes is a low value bright light to totally screw this up.

 

And lo ... the lord invented flares and smoke and the specialist night vision was duly fruitcaged. And without night vision the specialist laser is equally knackered.

 

And then of course everyone else with NVG's will be able to see you as an obvious target if there's anything reflective (like smoke) in the atmosphere and take you as a high value target. The collimated line always leads back to a target. Passive is always better than active target designation.

 

FFS this is airsoft. Even cheap red light lasers are mostly useless and just pose items when using BB's that can so easily fly off course for sooooo many different reasons.

 

At least cheap red lasers add to others enjoyment ... this IR ###### is jut pointless.

 

D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, he said he had troubles using pistol sights with NVGs, which is comprehensible. Depending on the generation and quality of the NVG, the image given can be quite awful, and the sighting is generally deported from the eye's position, making it even more confusing.

I assume that if he uses NVGs regularly, he knows what to expect of flashlights etc. I agree on the passive rather than active issue, but that's why it has a temporary switch, so as not to reveal the position all the time, but just during the few seconds needed to take the shoot. And he also said he had an IR illuminator built in the NVGs... I "killed" a whole professional infantry company (3 groups of 10 men) with my group (8 men) of reservists in a military exercise, just because one of them had his IR illuminator on (it's just a LED for reading maps etc.)

 

As for the power, yes it is above the usual, but the diameter given is 1.1mm, which is also a lot more than your usual pointer (that is for the real beam diameter, the impact you can see on a pointer is bigger because the light bounces in every direction, and the contrast laser/wall also has this effect) If you read the second link I provided earlier (the medical research) you'll see that most "presentation" laser pointers sold are actually Class IIIa!

 

Oh, and according to the data given (wave length), it is an IR laser, which aren't that expensive nowadays since the mass production of IR, green, blue etc LEDs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've used NVG's and illuminators so I know what you're talking about here.

 

I've never seen an IR laser through NVG kit so I'm assuming the same light scattering that you get with visible lasers occurs if you can 'see' IR through your own NVG's. I also assume that if one person in a skirmish has NVG's then it's likely that others will.

 

I still don't see the point with airsoft though ... BB guns just aren't accurate enough to warrant any kind of laser.

 

Sure, visible light lasers have a cosmetic 'cool factor' and can add to the game atmosphere. And hey, whatever floats your boat ... even IR lasers.

 

In the latter case I just don't see the point. No real criticism intended ... if others can't see it and it doesn't help your accuracy then why bother?

 

D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I still don't see the point with airsoft though ... BB guns just aren't accurate enough to warrant any kind of laser.

 

ColDaz has said that he finds it very hard to aim when using NVG's so he is using the IR laser to replace his pistols iron sights. Hes not using it to try and be more accurate.

 

And correct me if ime wrong but isnt everything PJH has said reffering to laser strengths, and the damage they can cause etc is useless here becuase as others have said the exposure time would be negligible.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not necessarily. PJH's article said damage could occur from an exposure time of as little as 1 millisecond, if I remember correctly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's like you read a medical report about how much heroin will kill an average person, and you go: "Well, the amount I do is only 1/4 of that so it has to be safe."

 

I'm still waiting for anyone to provide proof that the laser in question is safe to use in a friendly game with no intention of actually putting 8 grams of metal through the point designated by the laser.

 

-Sale

 

P.S. Lasers aren't used for an accuracy advantage. It's about target aquisition, and in real use also an intimidating factor. (Studies show that a visible laser dot and the sound of a pump action shotgun being loaded are two most efficient psychological "stoppers" of an assailant.) The best airsoft pistols can deliver sub-50mm groupings from 10 meters (2 inches / 30 feet), so aiming devices are fully warranted on these things.

 

An IR laser is often necessary, because the focus range of NVGs is limited. You may focus on the sights (if they focus to such close distances), and have everything else blurred, or focus on the target and have the entire weapon blurred.

 

-same

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and the use of session cookies.