Government to Ban sales of replicas to under 18s

[Zen]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4335097.stm

 

Fresh from the BBC news website.

The Government as part of a 5 point plan, is going to raise the age for buying replica firearms to 18. Presumably this means they aren't going to ban them...

 

However, what are the implications of this with regard to trading on the forums? I know many traders are are under 18, and Arnie is a law abiding gentleman. Does this mean restrictions are on the way, possibly with a requirement to have genuine ages in user profiles?

[Myrddraal]

replica sales are allready 17+ long before this

[CountDoom]

Replicas... well... i can still USE them so i am happy.

 

My dad could just trade?!?

 

Anyways, ways can be found around anything.

[Zen]

replica sales are allready 17+ long before this

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmm...

Wel since the "Home Office Consultation on Firearms 2003" so helpfully states:

"

Imitation firearms. The Firearms Acts define an

imitation as anything having the appearance of a

firearm whether or not capable of firing shot, a

bullet or other missile. This wide-ranging

definition includes realistic metal replicas (some

capable of firing blanks), crude home-made copies,

novelty items, children’s toys and water pistols. The

term “replica” and “imitation” are often used

interchangeably, though the term “replica” is

sometimes incorrectly applied to working

reproductions of older guns;

"

 

Then it would appear there already is a legal issue here...

[Marlowe]

I'll probably get hung drawn and quartered for this, but as I've stated before, I'm in support of increasing legislation regarding airguns, and would support licenses being necessary for 16+.

 

I'm 23 in a fortnight, so I can't say it really bothers me either way if this law is passed, but I feel that the maturity of the person rather than the age is more of an issue here, and that making mandatory licensing for 16+ would allow the continued use of rifles for those of a mature enough level to get a license, as from experience idiots that are going to abuse an airgun aren't going to be the ones that bother licensing it.

 

As you most likely well know Zen from posts on other forums, it's not a good idea to speculate on hypothetical situations. Let's not worry about such matters until we have concrete evidence that this definitely WILL be happening, rather then COULD be happening. We all know that a pledge by our current government isn't worth the paper it's printed on. I'm sure you of all people wouldn't possibly dream of trying to create any hysteria on these forums, after all...

 

Just my tuppence anyway. Flame away....

Edited March 10, 2005 by Marlowe

[Zen]

No intention to create hysteria. I saw this news article, and felt there was a potential issue, thats all. Its not like I'm linking in to dubious posts made by "unknown" users on other forums. Its an article on the BBC, reporting the stated intention of the Government

[Arnie]

There's a good reason for the 1J limit in the sales areas. As far as I am aware anything under 1J is not considered to be a weapon or firearm and thus not applicable to any current legislation that restricts sale based on age in the UK.

 

It should also be pointed out that there is no realistic way to enforce any age restriction on sales or classifieds posted by users on any forum board anywhere.

 

People advertise things for sale, so long as what's being sold isn't outright illegal or something we don't want posted all we can expect is for the seller and the buyer to act in accordance to their laws wherever they may be.

[Zen]

There's a good reason for the 1J limit in the sales areas.  As far as I am aware anything under 1J is not considered to be a weapon or firearm and thus not applicable to any current legislation that restricts sale based on age in the UK.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Muzzle energy isn't the issue here though, we are talking about restrictions on the sales of replica weapons:

 

"

Imitation firearms. The Firearms Acts define an

imitation as anything having the appearance of a

firearm whether or not capable of firing shot, a

bullet or other missile. This wide-ranging

definition includes realistic metal replicas (some

capable of firing blanks), crude home-made copies,

novelty items, children’s toys and water pistols. The

term “replica” and “imitation” are often used

interchangeably, though the term “replica” is

sometimes incorrectly applied to working

reproductions of older guns;

"

Edited March 11, 2005 by Zen

[Myrddraal]

and did i once say airsoft was involved witrh replicas.

 

same argument time and time again.

[Arnie]

Muzzle energy isn't the issue here though, we are talking about restrictions on the sales of replica weapons:

 

"

Imitation firearms. The Firearms Acts define an

imitation as anything having the appearance of a

firearm whether or not capable of firing shot, a

bullet or other missile. This wide-ranging

definition includes realistic metal replicas (some

capable of firing blanks), crude home-made copies,

novelty items, children’s toys and water pistols. The

term “replica” and “imitation” are often used

interchangeably, though the term “replica” is

sometimes incorrectly applied to working

reproductions of older guns;

"

 

Zen, an "imitation firearm" is not a "firearm" and for the second time I am not aware of any law or legislation that specifically retricts the sales of toy guns to under 18s.

 

The ASBA 2003 ammendments enforced restrictions upon the sale and ownership of air weapons to individuals under the age of 17.

 

The highlights are:

 

Section 22 was ammended such that acquisition and possession of firearms by minors was restricted to people over the age of 17.

 

Section 24 was ammended to make it an offence to give an air weapon or ammunition to a person under the age of fourteen.

 

As an Airsoft gun under 1J is neither a Firearm, nor an Air Weapon in my opinion the ammendments have no direct effect upon the boards.

 

The forum sales operate in the same way that a classifieds or freeads system does. The onus is on the seller/buyer to ensure that they conform to the laws pertaining to their locale.

 

As a responsible website we will take action against any post in the sales section that we either believe or are informed could be in breech or any either forum rules of local laws.

 

Should any new legislation appear that restricts the sale of Imitation Firearms, we'd most likely add some text to the sales rules to do our best to make the buyers/sellers aware of the situation, however the onus is on a buyer or seller wherver they are to make sure that they are acting within the law.

 

Again for the second time.. this is a redundant topic. Even if sales to under 18s were specifically restricted in the future there is NO WAY any online sales anywhere could be reasonably monitored or controlled to ensure that those people under 18 weren't advertising or purchasing through the systems.

[Zen]

Zen, an "imitation firearm" is not a "firearm" and for the second time I am not aware of any law or legislation that specifically retricts the sales of toy guns to under 18s.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just to point out, "Imitation Firearms" are not toys under UK law, as you will know from my frequent posts/links on the subject.

 

As I recall from the "Great FPS Debate" DeeDee, our residend Firearms expert (sadly no longer a moderator or member on these forums) had £60k of Airsoft gear destroyed because it "might be illegal". Surely, if there "might" be illegal activity on your sales forums, a responsible site operator, rather than taking the chance of one of his members falling fowl of the law (and potentially finding himself charged as an accessory), would close down all sales?. While we may not have a legal responsibilty, all the adult members of this forum should consider themselves to have a "Duty Of Care" with regards to the minor members.

 

You have yourself in the past expressed quite strong views with regard to minors selling guns on the internet.

Edited March 12, 2005 by Zen

[joeking27]

Surely, if there "might" be illegal activity on your sales forums, a responsible site operator, rather than taking the chance of one of his members falling fowl of the law (and potentially finding himself charged as an accessory), would close down all sales?. While we may not have a legal responsibilty, all the adult members of this forum should consider themselves to have a "Duty Of Care" with regards to the minor members.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So wouldn't that apply to all UK forums. Unless of course through no external manipulation certain forums were completely over 18.

[Marlowe]

A valid point. I look forward to seeing this thread on ASCUK, Zen/Paddy...

[Arnie]

Just to point out, "Imitation Firearms" are not toys under UK law, as you will know from my frequent posts/links on the subject. 

 

As I recall from the "Great FPS Debate" DeeDee, our residend Firearms expert (sadly no longer a moderator or member on these forums) had £60k of Airsoft gear destroyed because it "might be illegal". Surely, if there "might" be illegal activity on your sales forums, a responsible site operator, rather than taking the chance of one of his members falling fowl of the law (and potentially finding himself charged as an accessory), would close down all sales?. While we may not have a legal responsibilty, all the adult members of this forum should consider themselves to have a "Duty Of Care" with regards to the minor members.

 

You have yourself in the past expressed quite strong views with regard to minors selling guns on the internet.

 

Whilst they are not legally classified as Toys in the legal sense, however sometimes the best way to describe Airsoft gear in lamens terms is "toy gun". They are play things and for the most part essentially inert. The term was used validly in it's dictionary sense with no legal classification implied, implicitly or otherwise.

 

Anyway.. onto the subject at hand.

 

I don't understand your argument.. you are saying that because there might be future legislation that restricts the sale of something that is gun shaped in the UK to minors the sales section is closed down because we can't identify those affected?

 

There are already many laws that restrict the ownership of firearm related gear. One simple example is that someone that is serving out a parole sentence in the UK may not own or purchase imitation firearms whilst he/she is serving that period.

 

Much like any age limit there's no way that I can identify those on these boards that are serving out a conviction. I know that there are some on here who read these pages as simple statistics mean that there is a percentage.

 

There are restrictions on imitation firearms in the USA specifically in the NY area, and on Canadian imports.

 

If we see anything going on that is suspected to fall foul of those restrictions it's acted upon.

 

I'm not going to close down the sales sections because of these restrictions, nor would they be closed because of an age restriction here in the UK.

 

IF legislation is passed that restricts the sale and transfer of anything gun shaped to people over a certain age in the UK, then the rules for the forum sales will be adjusted so as to advertise that fact. As I said, any sales that we suspected to be in breech of that new rule/law would be removed and any reported to me/us would also be acted upon.

 

The sales sections are a classified system. The sales are not conducted by me or this website, it is merely a medium for users to contact each other to conduct their sales. Obviously it's implictly implied and specified in the rules that sales should be lawful in nature. The onus is on the users (the buyer and seller) to ensure that their conduct and actions in the real world are lawful.

 

I can't write up a page recanting every law that may or may not apply to something that looks like a gun and may apply to a user depending on where they are in the world.. I'd be here for months, plus by the time I'd finished the advice would be out of date.

 

As for the "Duty of Care" I prefectly agree that adults should take a responsible attitude towards the running of a forum.

 

However I don't believe that banning an entire classified system based on a singular law that might apply to a percentage of users is a valid course of action. As I have said there are thousands of restrictions upon anything that could be sold online. We cannot anticipate all of them, that is only reasonable.

 

The responsible attitude is to detail in the rules and guidance that a law (whatever it is) may apply to users and readers of the site and to moderate in an instance where it's suspected that the rules has been broken.

 

 

This is exactly what will happen if legislation is passed that restricts gun shaped objects from being purchased by minors in the future.

 

Readership educated, rules laid out, action to be taken if the rule is broken and best course of action taken. 'nuff said.

 

I appreciate the notion that if legislation changes then we may need to adjust how things run, and also appreciate potential issues being highlighted (I really do); but I reject the idea that the sales sections would or should close over the highlighted potential issue.

 

------

Specifically referring the suggestion that a forum owner could be held as an accessory to a charge of criminal activity of its readership, that is mere folly. Under UK law there is no "Duty of Care" furthermore as listed in the terms and conditons ( http://arniesairsoft.co.uk/termsandconditions.htm ) "...The views expressed by external users within the forums do not reflect the views of Arnie's Airsoft or any of its affiliates. Although Arnie's Airsoft makes every attempt to monitor the forums it will not be held liable for any contents contained therein."

 

My personal opinion is that minors should not be involved in key positions such as running businesses in an industry that draws contraversy such as Airsoft. However the sales sections here are for personal use not commercial gain, and so long as an individual is lawfully trading on their gear or purchasing 'new' second hand gear I have no problem with it.

[Redcap]

Well said, Arn.

[ViscountCharles]

As an Airsoft gun under 1J is neither a Firearm, nor an Air Weapon in my opinion the ammendments have no direct effect upon the boards.

 

Not specifically "airsoft", but in the case of DPP v Street a 0.5J Webley pistol was held to be an air weapon. The Judge (one of the most senior and respected Judges of the High Court, BTW) took the view that as the Firearms Act didn't define "air weapon" with reference to anything other than the specially dangerous provisions, an item that looked like a gun, had a barrel, and spat out pellets due to the action of air compressed by a spring, was indeed an air weapon. Although this wasn't the central issue in the case, it would be considered a binding ruling unless overturned by either the Court of Appeal or a clear ruling on the precise point by the High Court.

 

I can't see much difference between a Webley firing 0.177 pellets at 0.49 foot pounds (0.66J) and an airsoft gun firing 6mm plastic beads at 1J. Every report prepared by a firearms expert for use by the Prosecution that I've seen recently hasn't addressed differences in ammunition types - it's been muzzle energy (which remains a constant, whether using metal or plastic ammo) that's been the deciding factor.

 

FWIW, my understanding is that you have to be 17 to purchase an air weapon, but there is no restriction on the age of the seller under the FA (bar the old common law restriction, that a minor cannot enter into a binding contract for anything other than "necessaries"). Whether it's sensible or not is another matter.

Edited March 13, 2005 by ViscountCharles

[Marlowe]

Many thanks for your input Viscount. It's nice to hear the opinion of someone from within the legal profession on this subject, especially when placed within the context of past court cases.

 

I think everyone appears to be singing from the same hymn sheet here, but in somewhat differing degrees of volume. No-one here (from my interpretation of what has been said so far, at least) appears to be attempting to justify or support the sales of Airsoft weapons on these or any other forums to what current legislation has classed under-age individuals.

 

The main issue as far as I'm concerned is how you go about policing such a policy, not just here but on any online discussion forum. As Arnie (quite validly commented), it is hard to verify the claimed aged of an individual through anything short of unrealistic draconian measures such as requiring everyone to submit real-life proof of identity (in order to verify their age) prior to being allowed to participate in the For Sale forums (and again I stress this not just in the context of this forum, but in any other that exists and allows trading of secondhand equipment). I'm sure no-one here who has participated would claim that to be a realistic, workable solution.

 

At least, I can't see any such solution, but then I don't claim to be an expert in such matters. Does anyone else have any suggestions on how this could be realistically achieved here, and elsewhere?

Edited March 13, 2005 by Marlowe

[Arnie]

You mean [2004] EWHC 86? Yes that is an interesting judgement. On the face of it (without knowing more than is quoted through standard references) I see it two ways.

 

On the one hand it's worrying that they have convicted for the possession of something that isn't what it's not (if that makes sense); but equally it's nice to see a magistrate interpreting the reason that a Firearm law was introduced, the meaning behind it and rendering judgement appropriately.

 

On the balance of things though, I'd expect exactly the same judgement if the same set of circumstances were applied to an individual with a loaded Airsoft gun in public without justifiable cause even before the ASBA came into force.

 

Edit: Agreed Marlowe, sales to and from individuals under 17 will doubtless cause problems in the future. My own opinion is that standard Airsoft gear is not subjected to s. 22/23/24 of the '68 act, but that is merely my opinion it's certainly not fact or even a legal opinion - it's just based on personal feelings. Even with that said, responsibly I think we should consider the laws that cover Air Weapons as good guidance for their use and ownership. Most UK stores have placed voluntary age limits on their sales anyway. Like you said though there's no way to realistically police online adverts. It's already pretty much a given, but I've stipulated it recently anyway in the sales rules:

 

"Sellers should ensure that they have (if required by local law) the appropriate permits to hold, sell and export their advertised items and that they have taken all reasonable steps to ensure that the prospective purchaser is legally entitled to purchase such items."

 

..which pretty much covers most things.

[Arnie]

Actually reading through it a bit more these are my thoughts. Don't read them as statement of fact.. they are just my own mental musings and a suggestion as to how things might be based on the evidence.

 

In the case of Street V DPP is was held that a low powered air weapon could be applicable to the offense of having a loaded air weapon in a public place. It was never argued that the air weapon was a firearm, infact it was stated that "It was an offence under s.19 Firearms Act 1968 to have possession of a loaded air weapon in a public place, although the air weapon was incapable firing a lethal shot and was not a firearm.".

 

The actual law in relation to Air Weapons: s.22(1) makes it an offense for a person under the age of 17 to purchase or hire a Firearm. It does not state "air weapon". All other offenses pertaining specifically to air weapons (including the case quoted) those being the following:

 

- s.22 (4) (possession of air weapon/ammunition under 17)

- s.22(5) (under 17 in a public place with an unsecured/loaded air-weapon)

- s.23(1)(a) /s.23(1)( (abuse of an air weapon firing beyond premises)

- s.24(4) (gift or an air weapon to someone under 17)

 

All cite the term "air weapon" not Firearm, bar s.47(2) which states that it is a offense not to surrender a Firearm or ammunition to a police officer when required to do so.

 

Some points of note:

- Air Weapons are 'firearms' for the purposes of any criminal use

 

- In the case of sales to a minor, it is is a defense for the accused to prove that he believed the other person to be of or over the age mentioned and that he had reasonable cause for that belief.

 

- The "make a gift" does not infer a free trade or munitary exchange, it merely infers an exchange of ownership.

 

- Just one further point, it is listed that it isn't an offense for a minor to have in his possession an air weapon or ammunitition (s.22 (5) ), whilst as a member, they are engaging in rifle club activities or target practice or at a shooting gallery where the air weapons do not exceed .23in (~5.8mm) in calibre (such as those found at a fairground). If you could validly argue that a skirmish site or IPSC/BBIPSC event falls under that definition then it would be possible for a minor to attend and participate at an event. I'd not want to hazard a guess as to which way a coin would flip on that one though.

 

----------

Cut a long story short, if it can be held that a low powered air weapon irrespective of its possible low muzzle energy is an air weapon for the purposes of the acts as Viscount pointed out, then the sale or trade of an Airsoft gun to someone under the age of 17, and the ownership of an Airsoft gun under the age of 17 would indeed seem to be a reportable offense under PACE/S.25 under that interpretation (all the air weapon offenses I listed, not firearm offenses, carry a maximum £1000 fine at a magistrates court). I wouldn't say it was fact, but it's certainly a very strong argument.

[ViscountCharles]

Cut a long story short, if it can be held that a low powered air weapon irrespective of its possible low muzzle energy is an air weapon for the purposes of the acts as Viscount pointed out, then the sale or trade of an Airsoft gun to someone under the age of 17, and the ownership of an Airsoft gun under the age of 17 would indeed seem to be a reportable offense under PACE/S.25 under that interpretation (all the air weapon offenses I listed, not firearm offenses, carry a maximum £1000 fine at a magistrates court). I wouldn't say it was fact, but it's certainly a very strong argument.

 

Section 24 of the Firearms Act makes it illegal to "part with the possession of an air weapon ... to a person under the age of seventeen", unless the u17 is allowed to be in possession under section 23.

 

Section 23 allows the under-aged to be in possession "while under the supervision of a person over the age of 21 ... or ... while a member of an approved rifle club (the approval coming from the Secretary of State)". There are other, non-applicable defences. No airsoft site has the Sectretary of State's approval AFAIK. However, at skirmish sites you have the defence of "being of or over the age of 14 ... on private premises and with the consent of the occupier."

 

I don't know of any skirmish sites which allow the under 14s - I think (but haven't checked) that the U14s are allowed to be in possession of air guns only while supervised by someone over 21.

 

As for whether there might be prosecutions under this legislation for under-age sales with regard to "springers", I've spoken with one Local Authority that are currently considering doing just that. Although that's somewhat limited support for my proposition that it is in fact illegal, as they were the ones asking me what I thought of it.

 

As to Street, the judgement was given by Lord Justice May - who is considered to be a smart and sensible chap. The Magistrates also managed a fairly well reasoned decision when they first dealt with the case - quite remarkable, given that it was Aldridge Magistrates Court. My hope is that someone, somewhere will bring a prosecution for under-age sales against a market stall selling springers (hopefully by someone who has a clue about firearms legislation), and we can have the whole argument thrashed out definitively in the Divisional Court. For now, the best advice I can give is pretty much as Arnie says - treat them as if they are air weapons, and that the restrictions on the sale of air weapons applies to airsoft guns too. That way there's no chance of ending up with a hefty fine.