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The evolution of arguments against clones


crunkathon2k

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Have you guys noticed how arguments against clones have changed over time? Not all of these arguments occur and change over time; some pop up all over the spectrum of time. However, I realized that certain arguments are more popular in certain time periods.

 

Stage 1: Repudiation

 

"Ignore clones! There is NO WAY they can be so cheap, something has to be wrong. Think about how much it costs for the materials alone to make them; for example, gears are already 50 bucks for a complete set, and think of all the other factors that go in to make an AEG. Established brands are the way to go."

 

Stage 2: Extreme Caution

 

"Sure they MIGHT perform well... for the first 1000 rounds. Established brands have more experience and have far better QC; there is a far less chance of getting a lemon. In a clone, there's always little things going wrong, such as the hop up not working right, or slight misfeeding. The extra 100 dollars is worth it for a used TM."

 

Stage 3: Moral Rejection

 

"Okay, clones may be good guns, but think about what you are doing to the Airsoft community by supporting them! Companies like Tokyo Marui are LOSING MONEY because everybody will buy cheaper clones, therefore they will invest less in R&D. Plus, more teenagers will buy clones and do stupid things, giving our sport bad publicity."

 

Stage 4: Nitpicking

"Clones can't just magically be cheap- they're cheap for a reason. Clones might be made in sweatshops, so by buying clones, you are actually supporting SLAVERY! Also, Chinese factories have no concern over their consumers, there is a risk that the paint in your gun actually contains lead! Sure you might get a gun for cheap, but I will have the last laugh when you grow an extra arm!"

 

Stage 5: ???????

 

I'm still waiting to be surprised by stage 5.

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Ok, let's take this trash seriously for a moment. Points 1 and 2 were true for the first clones. Points 3 and 4 are still true. So... what's the point of this?

 

:zorro:

 

There is no conclusive evidence that points 3 and 4 are true.

 

Points 1 and 2 were true for SOME clones, but early clones like the CYMA AK and MP5-J were not atrociously bad.

 

EDIT: Apologies for making this thread sound like a match to start a flame war. It's supposed to be a tongue-in-cheek analysis of the airsoft community responding to clones.

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So early clones were bad, but later early clones were alright? Maybe you could stop using such imprecise terms and say what you're talking about.

 

As for 3 and 4, what would you consider to be conclusive proof?

 

:zorro:

 

I'm not going to answer the first part because there is a general agreement that certain (not all) brands of MPEGs can be almost as good as TM.

 

Conclusive proof for 3 would be:

-Tokyo Marui stops inventing new things (disproved by their researching new AEPs).

-More crime occurs because of airsoft

-Manufacturer goes out of business because of clones

 

Conclusive proof for 4 would be:

-Tests proving that MPEGs contain lead

-News report stating that clones were made in sweat shops (okay, CNN isn't likely to cover the world of airsoft like this. But it can be anything from someone traveling to Hong Kong to buy airsoft guns and receiving this information, etc)

 

The fact is everything is cheap in China. If you are going to make random accusations against clones, why not take your crusade against everything made in China like the toys that McDonalds provides in their happy meals for like 2 cents each? Or the plastic spatula you got from the dollar store? If you can't prove that buying a cheap product is screwing something up, there's no point in randomly assuming it.

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For stage 3. I thought someone had confirmed that TM were not too bothered about the clones whatsoever, because their market in the americas and europe is tiny in comparison to the one in east asia, which is very strong for TM (Tokyo Marui being just one example company). As without the import duties, shipping etc, Tm aeg prices there are so relatively small, theres no point in buying even cheaper clones.

 

I've heard this on several occasions.

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Ah, I see. Because you don't have a clue what you're talking about, you're going to brush two of you intial points under the carpet and hope we ignore them. No dice.

 

3 and 4: so, basically, you've decided to settle for impossible evidence? Well, that's that thread ended quickly.

 

Oh, and how do you know I don't boycott cheap Chinese made tat?

 

:zorro:

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3 is true. But also odd. For example, given the lack of an M635 that takes working magazines, Im buying a gun to convert to a Colt 9mm. I could choose either a JG M933 or a CA XM177. Im buying the XM, cos its a gun I want to keep. My DBoys paint scratched off just resting it on the floor to change batteries. Jeez, it scratches off if I stare at it too hard.

 

But those who say "manufacturers will go out of business if you buy clones". Okay then...never buy ANY store-brand food. Never buy any jeans that arent brand name. Never buy supermarket fuel, always buy from main brands. All these things are the same as clones - cheaper copies of the original.

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Ah, I see. Because you don't have a clue what you're talking about, you're going to brush two of you intial points under the carpet and hope we ignore them. No dice.

 

3 and 4: so, basically, you've decided to settle for impossible evidence? Well, that's that thread ended quickly.

 

Oh, and how do you know I don't boycott cheap Chinese made tat?

 

:zorro:

 

So companies like JG, A&K, and newer CYMA guns aren't proof that someone can get a good quality gun for less? You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see how many satisfied owners of clones there are on arnies. Those who aren't satisfied usually have negative pre-dispositions in the first place, thus making it a self fulfilling prophecy.

 

If you call it settling for impossible evidence, then so be it. Why should you live as if the moon is going to crash into the earth if you can't prove or disprove of it?

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I see clones as reasonable quality.  Not good quality.

 

Yknow how I fixed barrel wobble on my DBoys SPR?  Put a CA body on it.

 

Do I regret buying the SPR?  Nope.  But its not a gun I would consider my best

 

All too true. There will always be bad guns, and good guns. Some brands are ###### (Well, BE) and some are great (JG, Galaxy, etc).

 

Within brands, some are great (JG m4) and some can use work (early JG mp5s)

 

But doesn't this happen to other guns too? The TM famas, although it performs well, isn't the most solid piece around. And how many owners complain of crappy CA hopups? And chances are you will find people complaining of shoddy ICS internals.

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Sledge, if TM really cared they would do something to effectively combat the clone price point. You know what? They don't care. The people that are buying clones are the ones that never where going to buy a TM anyways. And if a company is that dead set that they are not going to adjust to a new market then they deserve to go under, that is the way economics works.

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I can prove points #3 and #4 correct.

 

I object to clones on moral grounds. I am sure clones are made in sweat-shops.

 

Are we done now?

 

And I object to abortion based on moral grounds. To each his own.

 

EDIT: I would like to see what HK airsofters say about this issue. It would be interesting to see another perspective, especially from those most affected by MPEGs.

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I have yet to see any cheap clone be of quality. TM, CA, ICs, etc have established reputations through years, if not longer. CYMA, et al have had a reputation for being junk, and it's going to take a lot more than a 16 year old saying 'this is great!' to establish a good rep. There's a reason airsofters who have been into REAL airsoft (note: not 'I played backyard airsoft for years, so that counts!') for more than five years say to get TM, CA, etc.

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I have yet to see any cheap clone be of quality. TM, CA, ICs, etc have established reputations through years, if not longer. CYMA, et al have had a reputation for being junk, and it's going to take a lot more than a 16 year old saying 'this is great!' to establish a good rep. There's a reason airsofters who have been into REAL airsoft (note: not 'I played backyard airsoft for years, so  that counts!') for more than five years say to get TM, CA, etc.

 

Junk? Back to stage 1 buddy. You don't browse these forums much, do you?

 

I'm not trying to be mean, but I'm just saying you should do more research on this subject before you draw your conclusions and reject guns that have been proven by well-respected members of Arnies(unfortunately or fortunately, I'm not one of them. But other users like FarEast, Mike West, etc. can all testify that companies like JG do not produce "junk") to be of quality.

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So youd permit one group their rights that affects only money (clone makers) and deny another their rights that affect their health and mental well-being (women wanting abortions)?

 

Sorry - your argument just failed right there, for me.

Warning to you, lay off the abortion argument. It has no place here.

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The Moral argument works as far as saying that children will use the guns in ways that are illegal/innaproriate

 

Tokyo Marui isnt hurt by the US or UK market as much as it might seem, they cant be dismounted in Japan simply because they hold the patent on the gearbox, you think TOP liked making those bellows

 

But i havent seen this agreement on quality from alot of people who have lived on both sides of the fence. Most who go out an buy the craptastic clones have only owned them so they are in a position to evaluate our equipment. The guns are low quality thats all there is to it. It took me 25k rounds to need to open up my first marui gun(g3sg1) and all it needed were metal bushings and a new piston.

 

The things that bug me most is that the guns are outright copies, and that is cruel in a way to steal from companies who have done r&d to make the equipment that lasts and is reliable.Escort Employees will tell you that Taiwanese manufacturers frequent the Black Hole show taking pictures and measurements in order to make the copies, and the extent that is taken to prevent that on Escorts part.

 

Im not worried much at all about cheap copies taking over, but the comparision to something that is simply on another level is disgusting to me

 

However on the other side of the fence now

 

I do understand that the amount of money that is normally required to purchase a decent setup is daunting for the progressively lowering age group (sub16 now where i am) from what is used to be(i started at 16 and my little group was the youngest by 4 years) makes the cheaper guns more desirable. I dont think its as much of a problem in the UK( i have no idea about SE Asia), but at least in my area of the US, we dont have sites to go play at that rent out guns, and i was lucky for that because the group that we play with was kind enough to loan us out whole equipment setups and guns for our first 3 times or so playing instead of letting buy clear plastic wannabe guns, and they helped us pick out all our guns and equipment when we got the money to get them. So maybe thats it to me, the lack of a mentoring presence, and therefore alot of the players are the first generation jumping into the fire with airsoft. The people that i do know that started with clones soon "graduated" to Marui/CA and havent looked back.

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