The evolution of arguments against clones

[hhsohn]

And evolution is not philosophy, it is science. Foucault, Derrida, Aristotle, and Kant were philosophers, Darwin was a scientist.

 

EDIT: I just realized that I made a completely off-topic response, maybe because the post I replied to was a personal insult and had nothing to do with the thread.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Go tell that to Dawkins and his ilk. All I'm doing is answering Sledge's question regarding this pseudo-logical thread.

[Victory]

Ok, maybe I'm not done, then.

 

Evolution is a theory...nothing more. Unless you can show me proof, that is.

 

Oh, also...keeping in line with the topic at hand...the sweatshop deal...I agree with Guzzi on this one. I'm sure other, higher-end airsoft companies work in and with sweatshops. If this is not the case, I'd be extremely suprized...suprised...whatever....the spell check can be wonky.

[Sledge]

Ooh, proof of evolution! This one should be fun!

 

[Rapier]

Hmmm, didn't know that. Thanks for giving me the heads up.

 

What brand of gearbox did you use? Certain gearboxes may be shaped differently, making installation harder.

 

Also which parts didn't line up? Sometimes it's an easy fix.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

JG, TM, SRC. Not a one lines up right.

 

Only possible to get 2 of 3 points of contact:Stock screw, rear reciever pin, trigger pin. I simply ended up forgoing the trigger pin since I know a LOT of guns that have had it fall out and it didn't affect anything.

 

Aand there is the bit about junk paint jobs. Drift a pin in and it flakes off around the pin holes.

[GuzziHero]

Tokyo Marui isnt evolution, it is intelligent design

 

"In the beginning there was the springer. And God said "Let there be batteries!""

[Victory]

Ooh, proof of evolution! This one should be fun!

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Oh stop it, you.

 

But yeah...topic at hand, etc.

 

-Vic

 

Edit: Wow...two posts suddenly appeared while I was typing. Great. Now I look all out of place.

[Sledge]

Shush, I want to see if we can get some religious people riled up.

 

[GuzziHero]

Edit: Wow...two posts suddenly appeared while I was typing. Great.

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A miracle! Proof of God!

 

(or something equally tenuous)

[Sledge]

 

[mwaggs_jd]

My personal opinion; the Japanese and Taiwanese companies now get to know how it felt to be GM, Ford, Magnavox and Zenith. Copying and improving on competitors products is what Japan did through the 1970's, then they got good enough at it that they started innovating, and they managed to kill off almost every US electronics comapny. US car companies are next. This is capitalism, pure and simple. Patents and copyrights that last forever are not.

 

All hail our new Chinese AEG manufacturing overlords...

[Stealthbomber]

My personal opinion; the Japanese and Taiwanese companies now get to know how it felt to be GM, Ford, Magnavox and Zenith.  Copying and improving on competitors products is what Japan did through the 1970's, then they got good enough at it that they started innovating, and they managed to kill off almost every US electronics comapny.  US car companies are next.  This is capitalism, pure and simple.  Patents and copyrights that last forever are not. 

 

All hail our new Chinese AEG manufacturing overlords...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As long as they actually get as far as the "improving" and "innovating" part I'm not worried.

 

As yet, 2nd-rate copies of existing products or, at best, modified products like the JLS F2000 (which can't accept locap mags due to the design of the gearbox) don't inspire confidence.

 

*EDIT*

Let's face it, some people on here will buy any old sh*te as long as it's cheap.

Ask yourself this: Would you still be buying chinese guns if they were the same price, or more expensive, that Jap ones?

 

Of course not.

[mwaggs_jd]

I bought one out of morbid curiosity (A&K M933), and to torture it to death. Personally, I'd rather spend the money on a CA or ICS for the time being, I like guns I can trust.

[crunkathon2k]

As long as they actually get as far as the "improving" and "innovating" part I'm not worried.

 

As yet, 2nd-rate copies of existing products or, at best, modified products like the JLS F2000 (which can't accept locap mags due to the design of the gearbox) don't inspire confidence.

 

*EDIT*

Let's face it, some people on here will buy any old sh*te as long as it's cheap.

Ask yourself this: Would you still be buying chinese guns if they were the same price, or more expensive, that Jap ones?

 

Of course not.

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It is only because of price that clone guns are controversial. If they were the same price, this debate would probably not exist. For proof, look at SRC. Nobody is blaming them because they cost over 200 bucks.

 

You will see threads like "what should I get, a Dboys, JG, ICS, TM, or CA M4?"

 

And you will get replies like "A JG m4 is slightly less reliable than a TM, but it shoots stronger and comes with a metal spring guide and metal bushings and has less barrel wobble. Dboys sometimes have motor problems and are generally not as reliable. Although they have metal bodies, there are better alternatives for the price. ICS has a unique gearbox design, and CA is like TM but full metal."

[RPK]

I think I'm going to go insane if I see another "What do you think about clones" thread...

[T.P.Evan]

All hail our new Chinese AEG manufacturing overlords...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

First the poisonous wheat gluten in dog and cat food, then the lead tainted children's jewelry, now cloned AEGs...what's next? The U.S. and Canada get absorbed into the PRC?

 

 

^

Reason #5 why not to buy cloned AEGs....

[GuzziHero]

But what people dont tell those asking about clones is that they often perform worse. FPS is just a number - better manufacturing tolerances, better hop units and other materials, usually mean that weaker firing 'originals' are more accurate.

 

I recall an AI review of CA vs (JLS?) SCARs and although the CA was weaker, it had tighter groupings. Now if CA's notoriously bad hop can achieve that...

[Pariah_WP]

I don't know. I think there is a place for everything. Clone and masterpiece series airsoft gear both have a place in the market. I just wish that there was something other than price to the argument that clones allow teenagers to buy them and that means that more crimes will be committed.

 

Here in Hawaii there has been a rash of airsoft related crimes. Everything from $10,000 in damages to a shopping center to a hold up. Most of these crimes were committed by adults. The shopping center was shot up by fairly well-to-do ricers with a truckload of money on their hands. These are not poor teens. These were people in their late 20s. Sure there are a lot of really stupid teens out there that just cannot wait to grab a clone and go do something stupid, I bet. It is just that here in my state the rather rich adults with high prices customized airsoft guns seem to be the ones causing the trouble and making us look bad.

 

I think that clones were inevitable as a product. There is a market for them. I think the point that was made earlier about TM and other higher quality manufacturers need to look at their pricepoints and make more products in differing ranges would adequately combat clones. If you could get a TM with slightly lower QC, but a lower price, would you get one? I think that I would...so long as it outdid the clones. I rather buy from the originators or the company making the functionally superior products before outright replicators any day. You?

 

My niece brought up a point I wanted to discuss.

 

She noted that a lot of clones shoot at a higher FPS, stock, than many people consider to be good. Some are over forum limits. Does this factor into or effect your opinion of clones adversely? I mean if you live/play somewhere that frowns upon the higher FPS that many clones have these days do you think that could effect your opinion of them in the negative?

 

I think that the fact that you MUST modify a clone in order to fit within a gaming sites FPS limit would effect my opinion. Nothing to do with sour grapes in that case. Just pure economics. I mean if I buy a clone to save some cash and then HAVE TO modify it to have a lower FPS to play at a site or meet my countries FPS limit might dissuade me from purchasing one solely on the ground that I could buy a TM, stock, and be within those limits AND have a reliable weapon to play with.

 

I hadn't really even considered the fact that a bunch of airsofters play and live in places where the higher FPS of many clones is not a good thing. Here in the states that point is often lost. In the UK you have to consider such information before a purchase. It would effect my opinion, honestly.

[Xaccers]

My niece brought up a point I wanted to discuss.

 

She noted that a lot of clones shoot at a higher FPS, stock, than many people consider to be good. Some are over forum limits. Does this factor into or effect your opinion of clones adversely? I mean if you live/play somewhere that frowns upon the higher FPS that many clones have these days do you think that could effect your opinion of them in the negative?

 

I think that the fact that you MUST modify a clone in order to fit within a gaming sites FPS limit would effect my opinion. Nothing to do with sour grapes in that case. Just pure economics. I mean if I buy a clone to save some cash and then HAVE TO modify it to have a lower FPS to play at a site or meet my countries FPS limit might dissuade me from purchasing one solely on the ground that I could buy a TM, stock, and be within those limits AND have a reliable weapon to play with.

 

I hadn't really even considered the fact that a bunch of airsofters play and live in places where the higher FPS of many clones is not a good thing. Here in the states that point is often lost. In the UK you have to consider such information before a purchase. It would effect my opinion, honestly.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Actually the 330-350fps of clone guns was the reason why I bought them as rentals. Finmere has a 350fps limit, as does GZ and GSO/GASS, and I believe X-Site as well, which one day I'll get to!

Cheaper than ICS/CA, fires faster than a TM, they're rentals so accuracy doesn't have to be fantastic at max range, but they're as accurate as I'd want them to be anyway.

So no need to spend extra on them upgrading them.

The FN2000 someone has on site is chronoing at 340fps, the dboy's I use as rentals are doing 330fps, so could be used at other sites if I wanted to go to any.

[lewis hiscock]

the qualiy is also improving greatly.

 

look at the up and coming A&K M249

 

aibleit very much over UK legal limits on FPS

[Night_raven]

Still haven't heard a word on the A&K M249.

 

I'm sorta beginning to think it was a phoney.

[GuzziHero]

Quality? Try a dead motor out of the box, dead hop rubber after < 5000 rounds, serious build issues...all on one DBoys.

[Stealthbomber]

The FN2000 someone has on site is chronoing at 340fps, the dboy's I use as rentals are doing 330fps, so could be used at other sites if I wanted to go to any.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's the weakest stock F2000 I've heard about, by far.

 

Every other F2000 I've heard about has been shooting at least 370fps, usually more like 380 or more. Mine was shooting 400fps.

[lewis hiscock]

well DBoys is lower quality than i would go.

 

i mean some makes you expect to be laughable.

 

im thinking of AGM, the new r85 by ARMY ect.

[w733commando]

JG aegs are capable of being reliable, I have put over 150,000 rounds through my m733, and it is STILL firing just as smoothly as when I first got it. The fps has dropped by about 20 though, but this is to be expected and isn't really a problem. I must admit that buying a clone is risky, but it can really pay off if you don't get a lemon.

[Yeager]

Yeah, Dboys are probably only good for their metal bodies.

 

My friend is thinking about getting a Dboys metal body for his M4, and I'm sure many owners of TM guns will do the same thing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

ORLY?

 

 

My Dboys shell fell apart in my hands after lightly tapping the receiver pins out.