Worth it?

[clintonwelding1]

Is it worth it to install a 6.01mm barrel in my ca m24? What advantages will this give me?

 

Also should I get a longer barrel and run it through the silencer?

 

Where can I get a new hopup for it?

[scithe]

ok, well i have owned both a 6.01mm barrel and 6.03mm barrel for my g-spec and have thoroughly tested them both.

 

disadvantages:

 

the .01 will give you a lower velocity and therefore decreased range in any spring powered weapon. apparently the bb can only accelerate so fast, and since the air is moving faster but cannot escape around the bb due to the tightness of the basrrel, the air shoots back up into the cylinder and slows the piston down.

 

the .01 will also require a much higher hopup setting in order to obtain the same effect as that of the hopup set with the .03.

 

the 6.01 barrel is also a lot pickier as far as ammo and cleaning than the .03. the .01 will NOT jam with any bb you would even consider using in a sniper rifle (accept aluminum bb's), but it will fire bb's much more innaccurately than a .03 if there are any deffects in the bb. not only that, but small amounts of dirt that would not interfere with the performance of a .03 will cause the bb to go completely off course when using a .01

 

advantages:

 

the .01, when using a type of ammo it likes, will give you a bit more accuracy over a .03 with sellect ammunition. where it really shines though is that it will give you an amazingly flat trajectory which a .03 could never compete with.

 

another area the .01 beats the .03 in is in the stable trajectory it gives the bb. because of this the bb is less likely to lose accuracy due to wind or obstacles (keep in mind it is still a tiny light little bb, so and large amount of these things will put it off course completely no matter what barrel you use)

 

intresting effects of the .01:

 

the 6.01 will give your rifle a slight recoil effect as the air rushes back into the cylinder, and it will also give your rifle a very audible "CRAK!" when fired as all the air is being forced out the barrel at once since it was not able to seep through around the bb. (this sound only occrs if the rifle is not suppressed of course)

 

 

as for the longer barrel, i would recomend emailing rhyn0 first. he said that he was going to do a test on his vsr with a 430mm v. 555mm barrels, so he may be able to provide you with some good information on that. although i do not know if the cylinder capacity of the ca m24 is the same as that of a vsr which could make a big difference.

 

from my experience though, added barrel length on a decently long barrel will not usually give you greater accuracy or fps. my g-spec is running a 303mm barrel and is dead accurate. the soc-16 has proven to be as accurate as the m14. and the tango-51 sniper rifle with an 18" barrel is still more accurate than most any other rifle in its class.

[crimsonfalcon07]

Very interesting, I never noticed the decrease in velocity before... But 6.01's are more powerful, and if you have your barrel cleaned and lubed, the effect is pretty minimal.

 

But that doesn't make sense; otherwise higher powered springs wouldn't work. A tighter barrel just means that the air is going to power the bb. Did you get these results from a chrono test?

 

18" barrel sounds pretty long to me too...

 

The M24 has a smaller cylinder volume (smaller diameter cylinder) than the VSR, so it won't be able to handle a really long barrel.

[scithe]

well thats exactly what i thought too. that it didnt make sense for the .01 to have a lower velocity. but i could not figure out why my range was so bad (could only hit out to 270ft absolute maximum). urban-ninja suggested a .03 since he had had both barrels in his aswell and found that the .03 gave better range without too much loss in accuracy. well i decided to get a .03 and test it. low and behold, i was getting shots out to 300+ ft, and although i did not have a crono to test it, it could penetrate drywall about 3mm deeper than it could with the .01

 

the reason the air does not simply push the bb faster is, i guess, because the bb can only accelerate so fast due to gravity. since the air moves faster than the bb can accelerate and it cant escape around it, it can only go backward.

[axl]

the reason the air does not simply push the bb faster is, i guess, because the bb can only accelerate so fast due to gravity. since the air moves faster than the bb can accelerate and it cant escape around it, it can only go backward.

 

Another thing to consider is the air resistance from the other side It's trying to keep the bb inside the barrel, the tighter the barrel, the greater the seal between it and the bb, making it harder for the air from outside the muzzle to rush in around the edges of the bb while the air from inside stays directly behind the bb pushing it out.

 

 

 

Not that I have any experience with a 6.01, but I'm just thinking logically, so that's all I'm going to comment on.

 

Hope that made sense.

 

Cheers, Alex

[scithe]

Another thing to consider is the air resistance from the other side    It's trying to keep the bb inside the barrel, the tighter the barrel, the greater the seal between it and the bb, making it harder for the air from outside the muzzle to rush in around the edges of the bb while the air from inside stays directly behind the bb pushing it out.

Not that I have any experience with a 6.01, but I'm just thinking logically, so that's all I'm going to comment on.   

 

Hope that made sense.

 

Cheers, Alex

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

ah, yes. duh! that actually makes a lot more sense than my theory so thank you

[axl]

Hahah no problem. Any other issues let me know!

 

Cheers, Alex

[TDS]

a 6.01 + extended about an inch into a silencer then ported can make a gas rifle amazingly quiet as well.

[NuBerVet]

quick question, very interesting discussion, i always believed the 6.01 was the barrel of choice. anyways, some of you have mentioned reduced velocities with the 6.01 barrel because air is backed up into the piston, does this only apply to spring sniper weapons, would this affect a gas/hpa sniper rifle? in the case of a gas rifle, 6.03 or 6.01 better?

 

sorry if i hijacked

 

cheers

[scithe]

well as far as we know there are two things slowing the bb's velocity.

1. air pushes back up into the piston

2. air in front of the bb cannot pass the bb which gives greater air resistance

 

so for #1, gas guns should not be a problem as there is no room for the gasses to shoot back up the barrel.

 

for #2 it would still be a problem though.

 

so really i guess you would have to test it to find out, but i would guess that it would still slow the velocity with gas guns.

[crimsonfalcon07]

But that still doesn't make sense. If there's a terminal velocity, how can higher FPS springs work? What am I missing here?

[greg]

Not so sure I agree with the theorys on why 6.01 gives lower fps than 6.03.

 

I found the following chrono results: Like for like; standard brass barrel = 300fps, TN 6.04 = 295, Lalax 6.03 = 310fps.

 

I've noticed this again & again, the tn's rob a few fps & lalax add a few. If lalax made a 6.01 (same material as 6.03), I doubt there would be a drop in fps.

 

I'm guessing this has more to do with the material (& friction it causes, or way it seals to the hop) than the diameter? & I reckon the same applys to the 6.01.

 

I really don't think .02mm is going to reduce velocity. More likely the better air seal will increase fps, not 'push the spring back'.

 

Surely this is a friction thing, not air pressure.

 

 

Greg.

[TDS]

I think what he is experiencing is more a function of the spring than the barrel.

 

Some springs have coils that get tighter and tighter as they reach the end, the idea is they are easier to cock and the few tight coils provide force where its most needed, when the piston is at rest to initially accelerate it. They are easier to cock, cause less "bang" against the piston head, and are generally considered "better"

 

but with a very tight barrel it is possible that the more spaced out coils are unable to keep the piston accelerating for its entire stroke due to the excessive resistance in the barrel. the resistance could be friction of the bb or air, or more likely a combination of both.

[greg]

The 'air pressure' difference, caused by the tighter barrel, (?) would be equal on both sides of the bb. Right?

 

If this assumption is correct, (it is) then there will be no effect to either side, will there.

 

Thus, this will have no effect on the spring. It can only be friction, or perhaps the hop rubber sealing more effectively on one, rather than another.

 

 

Greg.

[TDS]

The 'air pressure' difference, caused by the tighter barrel, (?) would be equal on both sides of the bb.  Right?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

blow a bb down a barrel or loading rod with your mouth and get back to me dude

[Stealthbomber]

Gotta say, some of the stuff in this thread is nonsense.

 

Specifically, the theories as to why a 6.01 barrel yields lower velocities.

 

Air CANNOT go "back up the barrel into the cylinder" and air CANNOT move from in front of the BB to behind it.

 

In a spring rifle the piston is moving forward. That's the way air moves. End of.

In a gas rifle the gas is expanding. Nothing can go the other way cos the discharged gas is expanding to fill that volume.

That explanation covers both "theories". No air CAN be moving "the opposite way because you have higher pressure air moving in the opposite direction.

 

Here's a couple of theories that actually obey the universal laws of physics.

1) Your BBs are tight in the bore, causing a reduction in velocity.

Your BBs don't have to actually BE a bigger diameter than the barrel for this to happen.

Ever seen one of those wooden woodpeckers on a stick that goes "Brrrrrr" as it slides down the stick?

The hole through the woodpeckers feet is actually big enough that it CAN slide down the pole but the woodpecker doesn't slide down the pole smoothly cos the feet continually get hung-up against the pole.

 

It's the same thing with BBs. If you roll a BB down a barrel it might not appear to hang-up but, if you try to move it faster then it WILL start to hang-up.

 

2) It's possible that a tighter bore gives lower FPS simply because it allows the BB to be spat out of the muzzle before it's accelerated as much as it might have done with a wider barrel.

 

This might sound a bit bizarre but it's feasible.

With less bypass, it's possible that a amount of pressurised gas first released when the gun is fired is enough to push the BB out of the barrel before the spring has accelerated fully OR before the gas discharged has expanded fully.

I have no idea if this DOES happen or not and I can't really think of a way to isolate the effect and prove or disprove it.

[crimsonfalcon07]

See, that sounds more intuitive. I'd like to see some chrono results with two lubed barrels. Heck, I'll do it myself...

[greg]

blow a bb down a barrel or loading rod with your mouth and get back to me dude

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I'll try again, but only once.

 

If there is any pressure difference caused by less or more slack space between the bb & the barrel. This would have a proportionally equal effect on both the escaping gas, (pushing the bb) & the gas in the barrel (in front of the bb).

 

I.e. The extra force in front of the bb (caused theoretically by the tighter bore), holding it back, would be equal to & therefore cancelled out by the extra 'seal' benefits gained on the piston side, pushing the bb out.

 

Errr, I'm not doing very well here am I . Any way,,,,,,,,,after reading the tds v stealth stuff I reckon I should bail on this.

 

Stealth, you are right.......there is loads of nonsence!!

 

 

Greg.

[Sale]

Ahh, thanks Stealthbomber. The voice of reason that made me stop pulling hair off my head.

 

One thing I know for sure is that in gas pistols a 6.01 mm barrel gives higher velocities than a 6.03 mm barrel. One way to test the theory whether the BB is leaving the barrel too soon (or too late perhaps), is to try different barrel lengths with the same cylinder, and maybe a short stroke cylinder head in the cylinder.

 

-Sale

[Stealthbomber]

One way to test the theory whether the BB is leaving the barrel too soon (or too late perhaps), is to try different barrel lengths with the same cylinder, and maybe a short stroke cylinder head in the cylinder.

 

-Sale

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, if you short-stroked a piston and found that it didn't cause a drop in power you'd know that something was up but, even then, you'd still need to go out and buy a longer barrel just to see if that DID give an increase again and, thus, prove that the BB was leaving the barrel "too soon", before the piston or gas had fully accelerated the BB.

 

Trouble is, if I have an M4 with a $150 6.01 barrel, I'm not going to be keen to buy another $150 M16 barrel just to prove a point.

 

Another example being the hop-up.

Dialling back the hop-up causes and increase in power.

That's cos the BB isn't slowed down by hitting the hop-up, right?

Well, is it?

Thing is, to go back to my woodpecker analogy (which you won't understand if you haven't seen them), it could well be that the hop-up causes the BB to bind as it moves along the barrel. This would be amplified in a 6.01 barrel.

Again, I really can't see a way to prove or disprove this, unfortunately.

[scithe]

ok, i stated that incorrectly. my theory was not that the air would litterally move back up the barrel, but that it would act as such since it could be slowed by the bb due to its friction against the barrel. as a result the air would be slowed while the piston was still pushing. the slowed air (seeing as there is only so much room from the piston head to the bb moving down the barrel) would then slow the movement of the piston which would in then not be able to push the air out as fast causing a much lower velocity. the reason i am sticking to this theory so much is because i did notice a recoil effect when using the .01, but not with the .03. the piston being slowed at such a sudden rate could pottentially be the cause of the recoil effect aswell as the loss in fps. and it would also agree with the idea that gas guns will not suffer from the loss in fps that spring guns would.

 

o, and the barrels i used were .03 laylax, and .01 pdi.

[762]

I just put a PDI .01 in my type 96 and with a new FF 150 i was chronoing 570, so I don't know about the .01 dropping fps because in every spring I put it has been adding fps. Maybe its just the VSR lengths that cause the problems (the type 96 is 495) also maybe someone should try porting the .01 barrel if they are having problems with it.

[clintonwelding1]

so is it good or bad durrrrrrrrrrrr

[greg]

ok, i stated that incorrectly. my theory was not that the air would litterally move back up the barrel, but that it would act as such since it could be slowed by the bb due to its friction against the barrel. as a result the air would be slowed while the piston was still pushing. the slowed air (seeing as there is only so much room from the piston head to the bb moving down the barrel) would then slow the movement of the piston which would in then not be able to push the air out as fast causing a much lower velocity. the reason i am sticking to this theory so much is because i did notice a recoil effect when using the .01, but not with the .03. the piston being slowed at such a sudden rate could pottentially be the cause of the recoil effect aswell as the loss in fps. and it would also agree with the idea that gas guns will not suffer from the loss in fps that spring guns would.

 

o, and the barrels i used were .03 laylax, and .01 pdi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Don't want to be picky, but.................

 

Why do you think a slower moving piston would cause more recoil?

 

Does any one else notice this? More recoil with less powerful springs?

 

 

Greg.

[Lince]

I think all problem will be piston's air volume and too long barrels. Probably with a 6.01 effect will be worst. But none from my AEG o springers lost fps with a tighter barrel using same lenght it had.

 

My Edgi 6.01 it isn't losing fps in my Bar10 vs my default barrell for example.