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Systema PTW m4a1 CQBR Max


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Last monday on a whim i decided to phone Empire Airsoft to see if they had any CQBR max SCK's in stock.

 

Low and behold Steve, the manager of the store said he had one more in stock.

 

1500 dollars later my CQBR was being assembled and readied for shipment to my doorstep.

 

Steve shipped my package that thursday after assembling it and test firing it and gave me the green light.

 

Around 3:30 this afternoon UPS delivered a box with fedex labels all over it, talk about freaky. If you've read my previous review of the CA scar you would know how much i despise UPS. To actually see them at my door before 8:00PM was simply amazing. So amazing i thought i was getting freakin robbed when the delivery guy started pounding on my door.

 

I scribbled my name on the delivery mans little computer and snatched the package from his sweaty hands.

 

Like most airsofters out there i tore through the package like a bum tears through a dumpster.

 

My eyes lit up as i eyed the systema box within its protective cardboard shell.

 

I opened up the systema box and was greeted by a very..VERY pretty sight.

 

There was my CQBR max in all of its realistic 1:1 glory. I picked it up and immediately noticed how solid it felt. Far more solid than any of my other aeg's. While it is true that the ptw's are die cast just like the rest of the guns out there in the airsoft world, systema goes the extra mile to make sure everything is to spec and its machined and finished properly. All of their parts fit together extremely well.

 

So well that i had to eat 12 cans of spinach before i was able to pry the damned receivers apart in order to extract the m150 cylinder and replace it with the m90 that i had bought. It took forever and many bodily contortions before i found the appropriate way to hinge open the gun.

 

WOW, the internals are incredible looking. Its like staring into the innards of a computer only there's a huge sector gear staring back at you.

 

I swapped out the red cylinder for the black cylinder and closed the gun up. Everything clicks into place, the reciever, the body pins, everything.

 

I then proceeded to walk over to my work area where i have all of my airsoft goodies stored. I attached my troy buis and that went on without a hitch. That's another testament to the quality of systemas manufacturing. There were no issues with fitting the sight onto the receiver. Hoora for the 1:1 scale!

 

Whistling happily while fiddling away with my brand new toy i grabbed my Eotech 511 and put it on the rail. I stood up, turned it on and watched it tumble off of the rifle onto my tile floor. Yes you heard me, my eotech fell off of my rifle, dropped six feet and hit the tile floor. It took me a few seconds to realize what had just happened because i was too busy stuffing my heart back into my chest after its attempted suicide jump from my throat.

 

I hesitantly reached down and grabbed the eotech. Not a damned scratch. The unit turned on fine and operated exactly like it always has. Bombproof i say.

 

I then proceeded to reattach the eotech thinking i had done something wrong. I positioned it on the receiver rail, tightened the nut first with my hand and then with a screw driver and went to check my sight picture. Sure enough the eotech was crooked. I then grabbed the eotech and rocked it slightly to the left and it came off right in my hand. "Well now, what in the hell is going on here?" i said to myself. As it turns out the V shaped locking tabs on the eotech were not able to grab down securely on the upper receiver rail because guess what...it is OUT OF SPEC. Yeah, all of that talk previous about how beautiful this 1:1 replica is, was pure bull pukey. Boy was i kidding myself.

 

To confirm the issue i tried my A.R.M.S #22 M68 mount and that too wasnt able to fit. I could get the V shaped clamps around the rail but i couldnt cam the bar into the closed position because again, just as i suspected the rail is out of spec.

 

I havent fired the gun yet, nor do i want to. Im sending it back and i plan on sending an email to systema. This kind of ###### should not be happening on a 1100 dollar gun.

 

I will update the review with firing impressions as soon as i get this issue sorted. I absolutely refuse to keep a rifle that cannot accept any optics.

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To add insult to injury...

 

The rollpin that holds in the bolt catch fell out while i was sitting there fondling the gun.

 

I had to get down on my hands and knees to search for the damn thing.

 

Im sorry but this kind of stuff shouldnt be happening to an 1100 dollar gun that is supposed to be designed for military and law enforcement use.

Edited by Magsz
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TO add insult to injury...

 

The rollpin that holds in the bolt catch fell out while i was sitting there fondling the gun.

 

I had to get down on my hands and knees to search for the damn thing.

 

Im sorry but this kind of stuff shouldnt be happening to an 1100 dollar gun that is supposed to be designed for military and law enforcement use.

 

agree with you there. dont care if its just one faulty gun out of 1,000,000,000. for that kind of money they had all better be d##m near perfect.

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It just seriously sucks that i had to be the one to find a new issue lol.

 

Previous to ordering the gun i sat at my pc and read everything www.systema-ptw.com had to offer and i mean EVERYTHING.

 

I read every thread and not once did anyone mention their gun being out of spec. I read about the cracked receivers and other assorted technical issues but nothing that went against systemas PRIMARY selling point, ie the 1:1 scale of the guns.

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Nope, i just have exceedingly high expectations that for whatever reason are always let down.

 

Dont get me wrong, this is by far the greatest airsoft purchase i have ever made for more reasons than just the price.

 

Still, because of the fact that i did spend that much money i expected more.

 

I will keep you all updated as to what progress im making towards rectifying the issues.

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hmmm... didnt see your other disapointed posts....

 

i know a guy who is always really happy. his dad died when he was a young boy, and his brother was killed in the army when he was a little older, then his other brother got sick and died, and in the same year his wifes parents died. (true story about my friends life) and he is still a very jolly guy.

 

i think though, that if i show him some of your posts he may wind up becoming depressed and killing himself! :P

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Rofl.

 

Im actually a pretty happy guy until i start spending money and not receiving what i paid for.

 

Unfortunately i come off as a grump most of the time on these forums because i use them as my primary means of research in order to purchase things.

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Updates:

 

I spoke with kdogg over at empire airsoft for quite some time this afternoon. We spoke about many of the things that were bothering me about the gun and after speaking with him i feel a little bit better.

 

First off, he offered to send me some replacement roll pins for the bolt catch. He told me that systema has revised the roll pins that they're using in their guns several times and the newer silver pins that came with my MAX are very dependant upon how much paint is applied to the receiver. If there is less paint then your pin may not fit in tightly.

 

Systema decided to go with this newer generation of pins because apparently the old pins were such a pain in the *albatross* to get in and out that people were cracking the ears off their receivers while hammering them out.

 

In the meantime ive built up the pin with some jbkwik in order to make it slightly fatter. Ive sanded it round and it should fit but i want to let it harden fully before i press fit it into the gun with a pair of teflon pliers.

 

Last night i noticed that the left side of my pistol grip was bowed out slightly. I could see a silver circle underneath the grip. I had kind of guessed that it was one of the pins used to secure the motor to the lower receiver but i wasnt sure. Kdogg confirmed that this was indeed what i was most likely seeing. I removed the pistol grip, put the gun on a secure, flat surface and hammered the pin all the way in. Wala, no more bulging pistol grip.

 

I also spoke to kdogg about the incredibly loud sound emanating from the gun when it was fired. He said that he has heard from some customers that alot of sck's seem to be very loud when they're new but the sound subsides as the gun breaks in. He suggested that i go run a bunch of mags through the gun in order to break in the gearbox.

 

Im tempted to run the gearbox under no load, ie no cylinder assembly but i dont want to bust anything so i probably wont do that. I did fire three magazines through the gun and its already sounding a little better. Either that or im just deluding myself into thinking that everything is going to be ok.

 

Firing impressions!

 

It sounds killer. Way different than any AEG i have ever used and rightly so because the ptw isnt an AEG, its a whole 'nother beast. Even with the loud sounds coming from the gun it doesnt sound bad like an improperly tuned aeg would sound, ie screechy. Again, i need more time with more rounds put through the gun before i can definitely say whether or not there is indeed an issue with the mechanics of the box.

 

Accuracy...ugh...Apparently a tightbore didnt solve all of the problems with these guns. Shots were flying all over the place, up down, right, left. The ptw's that i had fired before were very consistent with most of the shot spread being vertical rather than left, right, up and down like typical aeg's. I need more time with the gun. Im going to have a chance to do some more testing on friday so i will update this as i fire more rounds. Im thinking maybe the hop needs to be broken in like the rest of the gun but only time will tell.

 

Im thinking i may need to use heavier bb's to cut down on the variation. My custom m4 firing 330 fps was out ranging my ptw with the m90 or black cylinder. I was surprised and a little ###### off since one of the reasons why i bought the ptw was the fact that for whatever reason, ptw's seemed to have better terminal range.

 

My m4 was also hitting a man sized target at 250 feet more than 70% of the time whereas my ptw was only hitting that target maybe 30% of the time.

 

Obviously these numbers mean jack ###### without hard physical evidence but im just relating my experiences out of 10 shots fired.

 

Right now im asking myself whether or not a working bolt catch was worth 1700 dollars. If i said yes id probably have to agree with everyone on these forums that could call me a lunatic.

 

A year from now i may say wow, that 1700 bucks was the best investment ive ever made. Ive only done some maintenance on the cylinders and my mechbox still looks brand new!

 

Again, only time will tell. If anything, this is a great learning experience and despite the huge setbacks and the lackluster performance im still having fun with the gun. Ive always been interested in the ptw line but i never really saw any value in owning one. Maybe i was right all along? Im looking forward to being proved wrong.

Edited by Magsz
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Hmm, seems weird that your EoTech wouldn't fit. I've seen quite a few pictures of PTWs with those optics on them.

 

here, for example

 

and all over the Systema picture thread here at Arnie's.

 

Did you ask KDogg about why your optics might not fit?

 

I'm not saying that you don't know how to attach you own optics. That would be ludicrous.

Has Systema switched how their bodies are designed or something?

Edited by Gigueand
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I dunno, i may just be the biggest moron on the planet that cant screw in a simple optics mount. :P

 

I did speak with kdogg and i explained to him that instead of being a simple V shape on the UNDERSIDE of the weaver rail, there is a small step instead of a V that ends flush with the receiver.

 

Im not sure if that made sense but kdogg apparently understood what i was saying.

 

He then went on to explain how systema has changed their painting procedure and it may very well be that it was either machined wrong or there is simply too much paint on the rail.

 

My arms mount actually fits on the rail but it CANNOT close. I would have to hit the throw lever with a hammer in order for it to close and i do not want to do that.

 

Im going to be posting pictures of the issue tonight gents, stay tuned.

 

Ill have them up when i get back from the gym.

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Ok guys, here we go. Ive got pictures and video for you all.

 

The first picture that i have shows my A.R.M.S #22 M68 mount and how its canted to the side as though the rail is too wide. It also shows the position of the throw lever arm. Thats as close to closed as i can get it without using a hammer.

 

dsc00497gp1.th.jpg

 

Another picture showing the throw lever. Its not moving. Im afraid if i wrench it down any tighter im going to crack the receiver.

 

dsc00502wv8.th.jpg

 

Below is a picture of the actual rail. If you look closely you can see the step below the actual sloped portion of the rail. I have seen some real steel receivers like this but most of the ones that ive seen tend to be just V shaped. Im thinking systema forgot to shave a few mm's off of the sloped portion of the rail. Either that or they added too much paint in that area.

 

dsc00504eq8.th.jpg

 

Ok, i apologize in advance for the quality of this picture but it gets the point it needs to across. Here you see the portion of the rail that the eotech SHOULD be clamped to. Instead it sits on the very side of the rail and is able to be pulled right off.

 

dsc00510bz8.th.jpg

 

Here we have a brief video comparing one of my other aeg's to the ptw. Again, horrible quality and i swear im not really mad i was just trying as hard as i physically could to pull the eotech off of the receiver but it just wouldnt budge.

 

http://airsoft-tv.com/ptw.htm

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hahaha, you sound so ###### off in the vids... you should post a video review of it firing so the rest of us who cant afford one will drule :P

 

and i know what you mean about being let down on that stuff.... not on nearly as big of a scale though. unfortunately the economics of airsoft dont seem to be nearly as buyer friendly as any other category. in fact airsoft economics are so messed up (false advertising, faulty products, production of products without any amount of significant testing, etc.) and all at the expense of the buyer. anyway, good luck with getting it to work properly.

 

as for the rails... i know it's crazy far-fetched, but maybe you could take measurements of your g&p rails and then sand down the systema rails, polish it, and then repaint it.

 

if you are not a perfectionist, you could also cut a little bit into the side of the rail where the sight clamps would cover it up when (or if) installed to see if it is the paint that is too think or if the metal itself has not been cut properly.

Edited by scithe
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Real steel manufacturers also have slight variance in the rail size. Can the ARMS mount be adjusted for a more precise fit?

 

EOTech has had issues with (real) receivers with varying sizing, and some of their optics have had incorrect tolerances, causing the sight to "cant" on certain receivers.

 

If the Systema rail is just at the top of the allowed size for a 1913 standard Picatinny rail, and the EOTech happens to be in the low end, the end result may be unfit like you described.

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I should point out that the topic as well as the review gives an incorrect image of what you actually bought.

 

The topic doesn't say that the PTW was assembled from a challenge kit.

SCK's aren't the "high hype" stuff meant for actual training. A proper install job would have prevented that BHO pin from falling out for example.

 

-Sale

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I should point out that the topic as well as the review gives an incorrect image of what you actually bought.

 

The topic doesn't say that the PTW was assembled from a challenge kit.

SCK's aren't the "high hype" stuff meant for actual training. A proper install job would have prevented that BHO pin from falling out for example.

 

-Sale

 

Unfortunately you're wrong on that one sale. The roll pins that systema is including with the latest manufactured sck's are indeed too small for the hole. Its almost a luck of the draw situation because some receivers with more paint on the eyelets that the roll pin fit into have no problem with the pin falling out. Other receivers with less paint tend to have the exact same problem i described.

 

Fortunately, or unfortunately the roll pins on the ptw's have been revised over the past couple of years. In the case of the BHO's roll pin, it was revised because people were knocking the eyelets off of their receivers during installation. The original black roll pins were an EXTREMELY tight fit and they were again, extremely difficult to install or remove.

 

Systema revised the pin and included the newer silver pins which seem to be having major issues. Apparently, systema of japan has been notified of the issue.

 

Also sale, my SCK was professionally assembled by a "systema armorer". Obviously we have to take that with a grain of salt but i do trust the professional who put my kit together. Hes a fantastic guy and is very knowledgeable about these guns.

 

Sale, you do point out a very interesting thing. In case you're not aware Zilch, a dealer in europe was selling B and C grade ptw's over the course of this past year. Ive got to question why these kits would even exist? Obviously, the great systema itself has some quality control issues. Im beginning to wonder if SCK's are actually B grade kits that couldnt pass muster in order to become complete assembled ptw's.

 

From what ive read and been told the sck's are exactly the same as the fully assembled guns. Experience and evidence would lead me to believe otherwise.

 

Anyone care to comment on this?

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Magz: It's quite possible there's a quality issue with the BHO pins. And it wouldn't be the first revised part of the series, heck there have been 3 or 4 generations of PTWs and they're still improving the design. The point was that with a factory assembled PTW you don't install or remove said pin -> No problem in that regard.

 

I do also agree that there are people outside of the Systema factory who know their stuff and who can be trusted to assemble these things. But it still doesn't turn an assembled SCK into a "true" PTW. I'm not saying it would necessarily be of a lesser quality, or if it were that it would be acceptable because it's "only" an SCK. The only reason Systema does not offer a similar guarantee for the SCK models is the assembly process. The components should be the same minus markings, so if you have assembly-related issues, then you should be looking at your armourer first.

 

-Sale

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