Systema PTW m4a1 CQBR Max

[Magsz]

The silver roll pins are falling out even on the assembled PTW's so its an issue regardless of whether its an SCK or not.

 

Sale, like i mentioned earlier, i wouldnt be surprised if the sck's are grade A ptw rejects. Im really starting to believe more and more that SCK's are grade B ptw's that failed to meet systemas QC guidelines.

 

Care to comment on that? Am i being a conspiracy theorist or could there possibly be some truth to my wild theories?

Edited September 24, 2007 by Magsz

[Sale]

Like I said, there may be a quality issue with the BHO pins (including factory assembled PTW models). I'll take your word of it. My point is that if it was factory assembled, you could complain to the factory, but because it's not, you can't. Even if there was no problems with the PTW at all, it's still a third-party assembled SCK and I think that trivial bit of info is important to remember. Just like if you upgrade a Nissan Skyline to Nismo specs, it's still not the same thing as a ready-made Nismo. Even if the components are 100% the same.

 

I really doubt that Systema would put second grade parts into SCKs. It would not make sense to have two assembly lines to produce parts to different specifications, and re-checking and labeling QC-rejects further into "Okay for SCK" and "Not even for SCK" isn't free either. For a company who are building up a reputation of being high quality, the long term effects of releasing second grade parts would be disastrous.

 

I'm quite sure the manufacturing cost of single components is low enough, that the occasional faulty parts are actually rejected instead of re-used. Re-using them wouldn't save much money for the company, but could potentially drag their name in the mud.

 

As the BHO pin issue is also related to the factory assembled PTWs, at least in this case we don't even have any problem that would exist on the SCK variants but not on factory models. So there's not even a suspicion of using different parts for them.

 

-Sale

[Magsz]

"For a company who are building up a reputation of being high quality, the long term effects of releasing second grade parts would be disastrous."

 

Hmmm, i thought about this one and then i took a look at the current state of airsoft affairs. How many guns do we get these days that are complete garbage? How many guns have YOU bought that were complete garbage out of the box but you kept. I know ive bought quite a few guns that destroyed themselves not soon after i removed them from the box. My response was to simply go to work on the gearbox like i routinely do with all of my personal AEG's.

 

Whats different between systema and any other manufacturer? Systema should know the mindset of airsofters better than almost any other company since they've been at it quite a bit longer than most.

 

Lets be honest here for a second. Who are the SCK's marketed at? Certainly not LE and military. As far as im concerned they're marketed solely to airsofters. Why would any military or agency buy a bunch of unassembled guns and then spend the time and money assembling them? Considering the fact that military and law enforcement agencies are NOT spending 1500 dollars per ptw to buy them fully assembled, why would they go with something that comes in pieces in a box? I may very well be COMPLETELY off base with this so please feel free to add your own thoughts to this matter.

 

Also, if you havent i strongly encourage you to head on over to www.systema-ptw.com to check out the site. Most people there seem to think, whether they are right or wrong, that the sck's seem to have alot of issues that the pre assembled maxes dont. Considering the gearboxes are now assembled for you in the sck's why would the sck's end up sounding different if they're used with the same components as the pre assembled maxes?

 

Slightly off topic but thanks for the discussion sale, its been pretty cool so far and its caused me to consider a few things i otherwise wouldnt have thought of.

 

Back on topic. Wallace at z-shot will receive my ptw on wednesday. I hope to have a verdict shortly thereafter. I will keep you all updated.

[Sale]

Based on what I've seen Systema do previously, and the amount of parts they designed (and others copied), I have a strong reason to believe they don't have the same mind-set as other companies. To start off, they are Japanese instead of being based in Taiwan, China or Hong Kong. This may be a generalization, but you are statistically more likely to get a high quality product when it's made in Japan instead of China.

 

I installed my first Systema parts back in -99, using my own AEG as a guinea pig and later installing parts for others, as well as working at two local retailers. I've seen their works for quite some time - and also witnessed Classic Army raising their quality standards to what they are today. Systema is one of the few companies manage to keep the quality at a level I would call high. I'm not saying they are perfect, but they do address problems when they arise and I have every reason to believe they try to avoid putting out garbage as much as humanly possible.

 

You are correct about SCKs not being marketed to LE/MIL. It wouldn't make sense to buy a training weapon, if you need special training and skills just to use the training system. The complete models on the other hand are genuinely marketed at LE/MIL people, whether it looks successful to us or not. It is a fact that airsofts (regardless of brand) are a growing trend as training tools, and Systema are trying to get a slice of that pie by pushing their product towards that market.

 

1500 USD per gun may sound like a lot to an airsofter, and for the record I'm sticking with my G&P-bodied regular AEG as well. I know a person who runs a training business in the private sector. He's been looking into Classic Army AEGs for training, because of the price, but also because he's got connections to airsofters to make the guns run, if they fail. When it comes to the expenditure of a training centre or agency, 1500 USD per unit is pocket money. They may not have the connections to old airsoft dogs, so they'd rather pay for the extra reliability and warranty service. Especially when you start adding up the expense of ammo and maintenance of a MILES or Simunition, the PTW suddenly doesn't look that expensive anymore.

 

-----

 

I would say the #1 reason why there are less issues with factory built PTWs is that they are test-fired before they leave the factory. Another thing that comes to mind is that the motor is not adjustable, and you actually shim the bevel gear to adjust the pinion gear mesh. Maybe the pre-built gearbox of the SCK doesn't have optimal shimming in relation to the motor right away, so the sound is not as smooth as on complete PTWs. I wouldn't know, I haven't built one so this is just speculation.

 

Originally, I only meant to say that a factory built PTW and an SCK are two different things, and it may be misleading to call the latter the former.

 

Cheers,

Sauli

Edited September 25, 2007 by Sale

[Mirska]

Little offtopic.

First Magsz im sorry this has happened to you.

But i must say that i bought an SCK and assemble it myself. It worked flawlesly all the time i played with it. After 4 months i sold it and now it is in the hands of its 3. owner and still working perfect. This was about a year a go and now im buying my second SCK. In my own experience the systemas quality and fabrication are excelent.

 

Cheers Mirska

[Carbine]

I have 2 PTWs myself and love them both, so I decided to share some of my findings. Both of my PTWs are the old versions without the factory tightbore but I have since made custom 6,03mm barrels for both of them.

 

Accuracy is excellent as long as you use the right BBs. Neither of my guns will work with any other BB than Excels. Guarder work for about half a mag before the gun starts chopping them to bits and G&P misfeed all the time. With excel BBs the range and accuracy is just as good as you would except from an AEG with the same upgrade level.

 

My M16A2 MAX had a much smoother sound out of the box than my Gen.III SCK. After opening up the SCK I found that the bevel gear had been shimmed wrong at the factory and had side-to-side play that allowed it to rub against the side of the gearbox. One 0,1mm shim later and the gun sounds just as good as my MAX. Absolutely perfect and smooth!

 

None of my team's PTWs will work very well when it's below 0 out. The batteries die after a few mags and the guns chop BBs and misfeed. The batteries aren't actually emptied but rather the nominal voltage drops so that the PTWs circuitry stop it from firing.

 

As for receiver issues, Crenna broke his upper when he fell on his M4, but this is nothing out of the ordinary and any cast AEG upper would have broken as well. A Real-steel forged upper will fit with minor machining and I'm getting them done for both of my PTWs.

 

I reviewed the PTW for a Finnish airsoft magazine and like I said in the review, the PTW isn't perfect, but it's a HUGE step in the right direction.

[Magsz]

Thanks everyone for their input.

 

Honestly, im trying to remain as unbiased as i can but im beginning to think my wild theories stem from my desire to point a finger at someone.

 

In all honesty i dont think i have ever been as disappointed as i have been with this latest purchase. Since 1998 i have bought more aeg's, pistols and airsoft accessories than i can count and i have never been let down like this. As anyone intimately familiar with the airsoft industry knows, lemons and bad parts are quite common. Still, i have never purchased anything of this magnitude and been let down like this. Hell, even after spending 645 dollars on my sun project m16 and having it break in its first skirmish i wasnt disappointed. I knew what i was in for when i bought it.

 

The ptw on the other hand has issues but to be the FIRST to discover a new issue is never fun. Its kind of like being kicked in the balls when you're not looking.

 

I think what really stings is the fact that ive paid for my toy yet i cant even use it and i wont even be able to use it for some time due to the fact that i am at the mercy of the american importer as to whether or not i get a properly machined gun. Its almost like leasing a car and then having it in the shop for the first three months. Meanwhile, you're rolling around in a ford escort rental car and you're still paying your monthly payments on the car you're not even driving.

 

To further add insult to injury i read today that the 2008 models of the ptw's will have improved electronics lol. Great time for me to purchase a ptw!

 

Carbine, i fully plan on eventually machining an lmt stealth upper to fit onto the ptw as soon as i can afford it. The only reason why i am bitching as loud as i am is because while i dont expect the gun to be indestructible, i do expect it to at least arrive in a fully functional state. Yes, having a weaver rail that is to spec falls into the category of fully functional.

 

Once i do get my ptw back, if i ever do. I fully intend to update these first impressions with a skirmish report. I may very well change my tune down the road. For all i know, after ive used the gun i may very well never use any other AEG. Im really hoping that this is the case but for now, all i can relate are my first impressions of owning a ptw, however short they may have been.

Edited September 25, 2007 by Magsz

[Gigueand]

I take it Empire Airsoft won't allow returns on Challenge Kits?

[Magsz]

I honestly dont know.

 

I havent gotten that far with steve.

 

If and when i get the SCK back from Z-shot i may call Steve at Empire Airsoft to talk about returning it.

 

I honestly havent decided yet what i want to do.

[Carbine]

Magz, If I understood you correctly the kit was assembled at Empire Airsoft? If so, I would at least assume that they would take responsibility for their work.

 

I do understand if a retailer won't take back and SCK that has been assembled by the end user. As an airsoft mechanic, I've seen enough guns get destroyed by people who supposedly knew what they were doing and in reality, had no idea at all.

 

Magz, good luck with the upper! I have never seen or heard of a PTW upper being out of spec so yours must be a lemon. I feel for you, but I still recommend you play with the gun before ditching it completely.

[DesertFoxRomel]

the upper reciever rail is definately out of spec. it is way thicker than the rail on my M15A4, which i was able to mount real steel optics and scope rings on mind you

 

if you have a caliper, check out ur dimentions and refer to this

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Picatinny_Rail

[SDU_Phil]

A bit late but I'd like to add some input about my experience with my PTW also. I bought a Gen 3 SCK from DEN while on vacation in Hong Kong and was lucky enough to get it back to Canada (as some may know, importing without license to CAnada is a big no). So despite my minor problems with it I have no one to return this to to have it replaced or serviced.

 

I put it together without much problems until the bolt catch pin. I recently saw a teammates new PTW MAX and his pin was bit diff from mine, it was a solid pin, mine was hollow and according to the PTW instructions, needed to be hammered. Given the rep of PTW's metal bodies I wasn't very keen on doing this, but not like I had a choice. So I tried, with no luck. SImply placing the pin inside will work if u find some way to seal off the ends, because it is too loose and while gaming, it WILL fall out. Not wanting to break my metal body, and with no cosmetically pleasing alternative, i've placed a tooth pick through the whole, and take either end to the body with electrical tape. Hey, it works, depsite looking stupid as hell.

 

That didn't affect the functionality of the gun so I'll swallow it. But the next issue was with the accuracy/consistency. I must say that I am SEVERELY disappointed about how it shoots. Likewise with Magsz, I bought this under the impressoin of excellent range but when your bb sways off track before even getting anywhere near the range its very fustrating. My old nearly stock M4 with a busted hop up was more consistent and accurate than my PTW at the same range. That does not make me happy. And the fact that when I shoot at a target I can see my bb's spreading out all over them while they shoot at me with a stream of white death, only makes me even more angry. The only other option it seems is to purchase an aftermarket tightbore, which costs about $350 shipped to me. After buying a gun this expensive, i find it hard to gulp down I need to buy a barrel for it which cost half of the gun.

 

Another kick to the balls is Systema decides the 2008 models will come with new (better?) electronics and a new motor.

 

I have a hard time deciding whether I should keep it, or sell it off and stick with "normal" AEG's.

 

However, I did benefit from acquiring the unit fairly cheap. The kit, with a cylinder and 12v battery only came to $1100 CDN, which cost less than to buy a TM stock and throw upgrades into it (at least in Canada at our prices).

[Magsz]

Here's a "fix" for the bolt catch issue.

 

The older black pins were solid and featured one knurled end which allowed them to stay in the eyelets on the receiver.

 

The newer silver roll pins dont have a knurled end and tend to be too loose if there's not enough paint on the eyelets.

 

What i did to ensure that i retain the functionality of the bolt catch is to apply a thin "wall" of JBkwik to the opening of each eyelet.

 

Essentially you create two walls, one on each end that will prevent the pin from falling out but still allow the bolt catch and the pin to rotate during operation.

 

Again, you only want to apply a VERY thin wall to the eyelets so that should you ever have to remove the pin you can easily take a punch and simply knock the pin straight through the jb weld with a light tap

 

If you need pictures of my mod i can post them up this evening.

 

My accuracy issue still hasnt resolved itself completely but it has gotten a little better. Im of the mind that these guns need some break in before they operate optimally. Ive fired about 2k rounds through mine now and it seems to be performing alot better than it did out of the box. I did however notice that towards the end of this weekends play session i was getting quite a few fliers on semi auto. Im thinking i need to clean the barrel and that should sort out most of the issues.

[SDU_Phil]

Thanks for the tips, will definitely give them ago.

[Magsz]

Let me know if you need pictures. Im not sure if my verbal description was enough.

[boalorka1]

Wow, for that kind of money I would expect something that actually works, and you're telling me this thing is painted and out of spec?! You can get an AR-15 for that kind of money that is hard-anodized aircraft grade forged aluminum not a painted, pot metal alloy casting.....

[Kchen986]

Yea..here in the states $1700 should be able to net you a Colt M16 carbine...For $1,500 I would expect sniper grade performance...=\

 

Best of luck w/ it buddy.

[1st_shooter]

well i paid for my 2008 model m4a1 today so i just hope i have more luck than yourself.

[jagfish]

Hi

Well, most of the more troubling problems I've seen in my short PTW history is with the Challenge kits (self assembly). Since all 2008s are pre-assembled at this point, I'd say you'll soon have a fine weapon in your hands...