happy.al Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) My introduction to classic’s When I read a review I like to know a little about the history of the reviewer, so here’s mine. I have been playing Airsoft for a number of years, I have used and owned many AEG including TM, G&P, TOP, ICS, CA and more recently clones. I am a skirmisher rather than a collector and always try to use the guns that I have bought in games. About a year ago I purchased a JAC M16 from these forums, as a impulse buy. I did not know anything about classic airsoft at that time, and must say I didn’t have much interest either. As soon as the gun arrived I loved the way that it felt, it’s hard to explain, but the gun is slimmer and feels quite different to a AEG. To cut a long story short I found Classicairsoft.net and read about the world of classic airsoft. After reading about the Escort system of guns, I really liked the idea of a blow back rifle which used TM mags. I purchased a Escort MP5 in kit form from SniperX and loved it, for me it ticked all the boxes. Since I got this gun I hardly ever use AEG’s in games, I am completely converted to Gas guns. After this gun I really wanted a M16, lucky for me Sun Project use the Escort system in a M16, so I wrote to SniperX again and asked for a Car15 shaped one, which was quickly order. I’ve always wanted a CAR15 but really don’t want to pay what people are asking for the plastic bodies TM. Ordering I ordered my Car15 from SniperX appox 6 months ago, I knew that there was going to be a wait while he source parts, built it, did the mods which I asked for and shipped it. Overall I was very happy with SniperX’s service, he always answered my e-mails when I asked questions, he was up front about the waiting time, the work carried out is of the highest quality and I would be happy to purchase another gun from him. While I was waiting for this gun a second hand SP M16 was offered for sale at a very good price, so I bought it . This gun is completely standard and gives me a base to compare my new SP. Sun Project CAR15 The gun itself is based on a SP M16a1 Carbine, the receiver is bog standard Sun Project. The CAR15 furniture comes from a Kokusai CAR15 (I believe), I didn’t do any of the work so I’ve got no idea what mods where required. The front part is very solid, i.e. no movement at all, and it probably better than a standard SPM16, the rear stock again is very solid to hold, but does move a little bit, one extended it’s more solid than a standard SP M16. Overall I would say it’s probably the best airsoft replicate that I have felt. Internally I can’t remember all the mods that have been done, it’s pretty standard SniperX mods, I remember that adjustable hopup was added, the value braise, 3rd O ring added, tight bore barrel added and I’m sure that there where a few other things done too. Testing My site has a 350fps limit My standard SP M16 does 350fps at 100psi My CAR15 does 280fps at 100psi I turned up the pressure to 120psi and was chrono’d at 320fps. I played at this level, but do plan to test at higher pressures soon. I’m not sure why the CAR15 is so much less than the standard rifle in terms of fps, but for me this is not an altogether bad thing, it means that I can turn the pressure up, and it means that I can install some further upgrades. Figures don’t tend to tell the whole story, due to the lack of hopup on the standard SP the range isn’t very good, and a bigger problem is the inconsistency when firing in full auto. Although I knew about these problems and SniperX had installed the fixes I still was worried. I am glad to report that the hopup on my SP Car15 is very good, range is about on par with a similar power AEG, the consistency of the shots is much improved, however it’s not perfect just yet, but I did go through a similar break in period with my MP5 so I guess time will tell. Blow back is a different story, in my opinion the blow strength of my MP5 and standard SP M16 are about the same, it feels different on both guns and which one you prefer is a personal thing, but the strength is about the same. On the CAR15 the strength is much more, the force of the blow back shakes your arm, chest and head. It really does feel great. I’m not sure why the blow back is stronger, I think it’s something to do with the upgrades I asked for, I can’t remember SniperX saying that any of them would increase the blow back. Sound The rifle makes a great noise, I think that’s a given with any Sun Project rifle, this one however makes an even better noise than my normal Sun Project. There is two factors in making a better noise, the first, and probably the most important is the flash hinder on a Car15. It more, or less acts like a Noveske “sound hog” and produces a pleasing crack when a bb is fired. The other factor is the shortness of the barrel. Mags I’ve heard that Sun Project M16 rifles are quite fussy over which mags feed with them. I did have one problem with a G&P mag, which feeds great on my G&P rifle. However since then I’ve tried KA, TM and JG mags and haven’t had any problems. I will try again with the G&P mag and see if it was just the newness of the CAR15. Conclusion Overall I am very happy with my rifle, it look great, it sounds great, it feels great and is starting to shoot great. For me the purchase price of the rifle is worth the features I was looking for, I would say that a standard Sun Project M16 rifle is a better bet for most people, and would work out a heck of a lot cheaper. I will be using this rifle in almost all my upcoming games so will update this thread if anything big happens. Hope you enjoy the pictures, and if there anything else I can answer just ask (apart from the price, my girl friend might end up reading this = it was US$200 dear ) My other Sun Project M16a1 Carbine, will become a different rifle soon Edited October 5, 2007 by happy.al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Catman Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Having fired this very gun I can say; it's definately very nice. The stock and foregrip are especially nice to hold as they have a rubberised finish/feel to them. Personally I wouldn't pay that kind of money (lol $200? she's not going to read the forum, come clean Al!) for a custom gun such as this but then I'm definately not the type of person that would ever ever do that anyway I think the reason the recoil is higher is because there's significantly less weight at the much shorter front resulting in it balancing much better in your hand. It's one helluva an experience to fire, short bursts only otherwise your vision goes complete skewif It's miles better than the Escort MP5 and feels oh-so solid. Sun Project M16s are extremely great fun to fire and own, they do require an external gas tank but this is far out weighed the whole shooting experience. If you buy one stock then the mods to go for are: braised valve with 3rd o-ring and hop-up unit modification. And yes you can buy these new (see Guns N Guys) or you can buy straight from Escort/SniperX (found on the ClassicAirsoft.net forum) with the modifications done. In all honesty SniperX can be a bit of a pain to deal with, he does often seem a bit full of himself but he does come through with the goods (it'll take a while because Escort always have a back log of work). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guinness Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 Great review, Thanks! Question: Any idea where he got the body, front and stock to make a model 607 (called a 'CAR15' here?) if its not a TM? I actually tracked down a Tokyo Marui CAR15 recently and am trying to restore it and add a metal body, but am running into massive frustration.... Also, do you have an address to contact sniperx so I could order one as well? Thanks! -G Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted October 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 I believe that the CAR15 bits are from a Kokusai. The body is from a SUn Project, which I believe is the old JAC mold. SniperX's email address is sniperx@classicairsoftguns.com Let me know how it works out Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jailhouse Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 What air rig are you using on that. Single, dual tanks, adaptor etc. How much game play you getting? I missed out on a Sun systems kit on here a few months ago and was truly gutted. Since then I have looked at others, perhaps I could get your supplier to do me one for $200 ;-) Nice kit jh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted October 5, 2007 Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 $200 for a SPM16?, something seems wrong about that, maybe you meant $200 for the Car-15 Conversion? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted October 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 5, 2007 (edited) If the girlfriend asks, it was $200 it may be a little bit more, just a tiny bit. I'm using a HPA tank and palmer reg, it's 3000psi and it lasts a whole day. guessong about 2500 rnds. I have a 15ltr tank on site to refill if needed. Edited October 5, 2007 by happy.al Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evilliboba Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 I'm guessing that the CAR-15 cost at least $1000. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
snorkelman Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 single piece outer barrel is going to be a big improvement over the godawfull two piece contraption SP inflict the standard ones with and Ive always had a soft spot for the shorty stock money wise? Meh - the sheer fun of the gun will still be there long after the sting of the bill is forgotten Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 (edited) CAR-15 could have cost more, $1000 is a rough benchmark of a fully skirmishable regular spm16 IIRC for all the revamped internals and a few "necessary" outer bits like a 1 peice barrel. The only thing that has stopped me from a spm16 so far is not so much the bill, its the dealing with the backlog of work at either Escort in Japan or AF4L in the US to do what is necessary to the gun. Im not a fan of letting that much money sit with someone else for so long when i see the track record. Heck the only reason i have my mp5 is because i got it lightly used from a ultra reliable person. Edited October 6, 2007 by Azulsky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
juicymeat Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 If you're looking for custom work, supposedly Daytonagun on classicairsoft.net is a good person to contact outside of Paul/Andrew, though my experiences with Paul so far will lead me back to him. BTW happy.al, is the reason why you have electrical tape on your SP's rear pin (the stock M16A1) because it's loose? If so, you can try what I did with the rear pin on my SP. Cut a strip of electrical tape, and then cut that strip to 1/4 of its original thickness, then wrap it once around the pin near the flat head and reinsert the pin, should be completely snug now. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted October 8, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 8, 2007 If you're looking for custom work, supposedly Daytonagun on classicairsoft.net is a good person to contact outside of Paul/Andrew, though my experiences with Paul so far will lead me back to him. BTW happy.al, is the reason why you have electrical tape on your SP's rear pin (the stock M16A1) because it's loose? If so, you can try what I did with the rear pin on my SP. Cut a strip of electrical tape, and then cut that strip to 1/4 of its original thickness, then wrap it once around the pin near the flat head and reinsert the pin, should be completely snug now. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks Juicy, I've never noticed the tape on the pins, that picture was when I bought the gun and it doesn't have tape on the pins at the moment. But they are loose so your tip will be useful I've used Daytonagun, he's very good. Currently I am asking him to convert my stock M16a1 into a full size M16a1 along with some internal upgrades, including hopup. I'll let you know how it turns out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted October 16, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 16, 2007 Car15 follow on report I had another chance to use my CAR15 at this weekends game. I’m still in love with this rifle, it is by far the greatest shooting experience I’ve had. BUT this weekend I did have a few problems. I think I have identified the problems and know how to fix them. I didn’t feel very well at the game, and that’s why I was a little lazy in fixing the problems. Also for the first time in a number of months I took a AEG out instead of a gas gun for a game. The problems all steamed from the same thing, consistency, the two problems I had I could of fixed on site with a little effort but chose not to. I increased the pressure a little on my reg and didn’t reset the hopup, didn’t cause major issue’s but didn’t help. Second problem was my reg, and this was really me being lazy. I’ve had this problem before, it takes a while for the pressure to build again after each shot, not really a problem on single but does cause a problem on auto. It just needs a little silicon oil, and when I put my reg on the bottle I forgot. I should of taken the reg off the bottle and added the oil. I also made a change to the rifle, I changed the valve from the original brass valve to a steal valve bought from Daytonagun on the classicairsoft.net forum. It’s a little unfair to say that this caused any problems, as I don’t believe that it directly caused any problems. It’s a nice bit of kit, dropped straight in and did it’s job well. However I do believe that it requires a break in period, and since the other valve had fired appox 2K rounds before a game, and this one had none it’s a little unfair to say it caused any problems. OK having spent this far talking about problems I’m going to lighten up a little and says what is going well, the blow back effect is still great, it’s very crisp and feels great when the rifle is shouldered. Also it is a nice rifle to handle, it just feels right in my hands, I’ve always like longer rifles in the past, and M4 sized rifles felt like toys but this one somehow doesn’t feel short to me, I think some of that is down to the weighty feel of the rifle, it’s just great to have a good mass in your hands. An other thing I like is the sound, it’s a distinctive sound, which I think makes it sound more intimidating than a AEG, it also pinpoints me on the field, so does have a downside. That’s pretty much it for this update, I did take the rifle apart when I fitted the new valve, and inside it looks pretty much new, almost no wear on the internals. I did notice a thin layer of oil over everything, so it’s still nicely lubed. At my next game, which I think won’t be for a month, I hope to iron out the problems, and spend a little more time getting the rifle setup correctly, including finding a workable pressure and fine tuning the hopup. At this point I believe that the rifle has fired appox 2500 rnds, I will keep an eye on everything and try to write some updates if there is anything worth reporting. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azulsky Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 (edited) Are you using a Palmers Stabilizer, mine does the same thing when its not oiled up properly. Though perhaps you are correct on the count of breaking in the valve. Ive considered moving to a secondary regulator myself to permanently cure this problem. Good to hear you are enjoying it though!! Edited October 17, 2007 by Azulsky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
otherrandomhero Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Oh, come on, now that you went through all that you have to tell us the cost! Seriously, after this review I kinda want one and I'd like to know how many tears to wipe from my wallet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted October 17, 2007 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 Are you using a Palmers Stabilizer, mine does the same thing when its not oiled up properly. Though perhaps you are correct on the count of breaking in the valve. Ive considered moving to a secondary regulator myself to permanently cure this problem. Good to hear you are enjoying it though!! Yes it is a Palmers Stabilizer, I just forgot to add a few drops of oil before I screwed it onto the bottle, I too have been thinking about a secondary reg myself, but I'm not sure it's worth it as I only get a problem when I forget to oil the reg. As to the cost, don't tell my girlfriend, it was appox US$2,000 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
otherrandomhero Posted October 17, 2007 Report Share Posted October 17, 2007 As to the cost, don't tell my girlfriend, it was appox US$2,000 Well, I just spent $2800 on a guitar and $300 on a pedal, so now that $2K isn't looking so big after all. I think I can see one of these in my future... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
airsofter177. Posted November 6, 2007 Report Share Posted November 6, 2007 Nice review. I'll get one if Sniperx lowered his prices from $1000-whoops i mean $200 to quite a lower price. I've been wanting to get one for a long time. Thanks for writing this review! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted November 7, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2007 Thanks, I hoped to have another update by now, but haven't played since the last update due to moving house The gun is so nice to hold, the pictures don't do the texture of the foregrips and butt stock justice, they feel great. I've also been slowly converting my other SP M16 into a full size M16a1 using parts from Daytonagun from CA.net, I'll update this thread when I finish, should be at the end of the month. I'm worried about fps on this rifle, I think with the longer barrel it will be too high for my site. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted November 27, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Just another quick update, I’ve not had a chance to play for about a month because I’ve been moving house and just about everything I owned was packed away, unpack, lost and found again (well, most things are still lost, or in the attic on orders from the other half). Managed to get out for a game this Sunday, and what a great day I had. The weather was typical for this time of year, i.e. overcast with rain showers, but our sites weatherman (Catman) reassured us all that the weather would get better throughout the day. It didn’t of course. Because of the poor weather I decided that I would use one of my AEG’s until it stopped raining, I started the first game with a CA M15a2 Carbine. I gave it a test fire, not feeding, reseated the mag, again not feed, tried a TM mag, again not feeding. O’great, will need to be stripped down to check what's wrong. Went back to my car and grabbed a JG BetaS, after a breif test, which was fine I ran off to join the game. All was going well until I came under so heavy fire, the selector had come loose and would not stay in full auto mode, not something I could fix when under fire and not all that good when you need to put down some covering fire. Just after that the selector switch didn’t matter too much as the battery died, it had been on charge all night so need to look at that. At this point I had the choice of getting a loaner gun or using my CAR15. I started to use the CAR15, and used it from the second game for the rest of the day. I’m pleased to say that it worked faultlessly, even in the rain, sometimes heavy, the power and range where both good got to admit that it worked better than I was expecting. Don’t know why but I was expecting consistency issues but they never appeared. The only to thing which I noticed, and was noticed by other people was that it seemed louder, a real deafening crack, so much so it fact it stopped me from shooting sometime. I know that’s a weird thing to say but I think that because it was so cold it made the sound much more intense. The only other thing to report is how much fun the recoil is, it’s one of those things, you remember it’s got good recoil, you just forgot how much. To say I’m happy with my Sun Project is a bit of an understatement, it performed better than I expected, you read of so many people having problems with gas gun and I haven’t had any that have not been of my own making. I’ve been converted to gas guns in a big way, as you can see above I still use AEG’s and still have a lot of fun with them but from now on my primary weapon is going to be a gas gun, and that is something that I never thought would happen. I’m still updating my other Sun Project, with a steal bolt, RS butt stock, AEG barrel etc. and I will be using my CAR15 in every game so I will still try to keep this thread upto date when ever I have something to add. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Guinness Posted November 27, 2007 Report Share Posted November 27, 2007 Great update Happy! Rain in the UK eh? whodathunkit? Any chance of some new pics of the CAR? Slainte! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
juicymeat Posted November 28, 2007 Report Share Posted November 28, 2007 (edited) Heh, classics dont really have trouble with water at all, search youtube for Youth Engineering MP5 (basically an Escort MP5 without the upgrades) and you'll see a pretty funny video with gas guns and water. Would recommend to field strip and clean it afterwards though. EDIT: Here it is: Edited November 28, 2007 by juicymeat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
happy.al Posted February 9, 2008 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Just a quick update, and some info on part which I bought from Daytonagun who can be contacted via the ClassicAirsoft forum. Some info on the parts. Real M16 butt stock Daytonagun conversion for real butt stock Stainless steel value, with added 3rd O-ring Stainless steel bolt, in black Stainless steel inner shaft (hopefully put an end to any collar movement) Hop up conversion AEG Barrel conversion Real M16a1 foregrip Single piece stainless steel outer barrel, with TM thread on the end Still not used the M16 in a game (Next Sunday I hope), in fact only fired a few shots so far and it's still bedding in. First up is a shot which shows the M16a1 next to the Car15 Close up of the Black bolt Showing the mag well and the serial numbers Picture of the steel inner shaft, next to a standard SP inner shaft Last shot of the 2 guns Hope follow up with a full review of the M16, and to update the CAR15 review with some action shots. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Magsz Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Man, daytonagun does some pretty darn impressive work. Much nicer than the limited amount of stuff ive seen coming out of AS4L. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AustinWolv Posted February 9, 2008 Report Share Posted February 9, 2008 Much nicer than the limited amount of stuff ive seen coming out of AS4L. Very nice work from what I've seen. And dayton's communication is much better, and more timely delivery of what you buy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.