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aerodrew

Tanio Koba C8(M4-Canadian)

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I've been interested in this gun for some time, and now it looks like he finally has a production model to demonstrate. It uses a Gas blowback system and can even be field stripped like its real steel counterpart.

http://www.hyperdouraku.com/airgun/kobam4/index.html

I'm hoping it can use the real magpul MIAD grip, also I'm hoping they'll make aftermarket loading nozzles for it as well, but seeing as it's tanio koba, there might not be much hope for aftermarket parts. Either way I would like to see how much this will cost once it's out and how well it can perform if it can use CO2 or green gas.

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i heard the same about the semi auto, that and performance is subpar, no words on accuracy

I think it would be a great collectors piece but unless its filled with hpa i can only see those magazines freezing over if you had to empty one

Thats on top of the magazines going to be ridiculous to find and going to be ridiculously expensive. Otherwise a valiant effort, but from previous experience with higher capacity gas magazines(g18c) i can only imagine that the mags are going to chillay

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What TK guns do you have experience with sir?

Knowing them, its going to be hfc134a for this
The TK USP .40 is a pain because of bad magazines and the lower pressure of 134a
And the magazines are going to be $80 a peice at the verrry least, no way around it.

The TK guns that survive are the ones Marui has carried on.

This gun and his Ak74 have been talked about to death at classicairsoft, there just isnt a internal gas solution yet.

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I'm not sure if I want to contribute to this duplicate thread... but... I notice a lot of people moaning about internal gas mags and how this is going to suck on the TK C8. My question is, why exactly is this so bad? Back when I started playing airsoft in the late 80s (in Hong Kong where I grew up), the popular solution for Classics were definitely external sources. I had a JAC M16 and a M16A2 shorty, a JAC AUG, JAC MP5 SD6 and a Asahi Bushmaster. All initially had internal solutions, which I will admit sucked. I couldn't shoot an entire mag without the tank freezing. Then I switched to external and life was good. That being said, over the years internal gas sources have either evolved or been modified to be more efficient at what they do. A good example are pistols like the Glock 18 with a long mag, or SMGs like the TMP Steyr. You can empty a full mag with out much significant loss in ROF by the last round fired. I could NEVER do that with my classic JAC rifles. Looking at what TK is doing with his C8, which will allegedly hold 40 rounds per mag, I can't imagine the performance would be any less than that of the KSC TMP Steyr. Which for a gas gun, isn't bad (IMHO of course).

So my question is this: Are people down on TK employing an internal gas solution because -
(1) 40 rounds are just too few and people don't want to be forced to buy new mags?
(2) Escort guns can use regular TM mags (including hi-caps) which can allow them to be competitive with AEGs?
(3) having an internal gas source would make the mags expensive?
(4) other reasons?

I just want to fully comprehend why people are so down on this approach TK has decided to take.

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So my question is this: Are people down on TK emplying an internal gas solution because -
(1) 40 rounds are just too few(actually just fine) and people don't want to be forced to buy new mags?
(2) Escort guns can use regular TM mags (including hi-caps) which can allow them to be competitive with AEGs?
(3) having an internal gas source would make the mags expensive?
(4) other reasons?



I just want to fully comprehend why people are so down on this approach TK has decided to take.
[/quote]

All of the above, (4) because we actually havent heard of it having a hopup(god i would hope), and i still see performance not being up to par
The only other issue i have with the magazines is that its more maitenance, which isnt really a problem its just more points of failure you have to check, especially if you have a loadout's worth of magazines. If they cost what the PTW mags cost i wouldnt have a problem with that, but i just see them being $80 or more

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QUOTE (Azulsky @ Oct 16 2007, 05:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
(1) 40 rounds are just too few(actually just fine) and people don't want to be forced to buy new mags?


I was just projecting what I thought peoples issues might be with it. Personally, I'm fine with 40 rounds. I'm a standard capacity mag user myself. But I know there are lots of hi-cap users out there who'd be uncomfortable with anything less than 100 rounds.

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Hicaps for a gun like this arent practical. I think we all know that.

I really doubt the spray and prayers out there would ever look to gas in mag solutions since an AEG is far more reliable for that type of thing.

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QUOTE (Magsz @ Oct 16 2007, 06:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hicaps for a gun like this arent practical. I think we all know that.

I really doubt the spray and prayers out there would ever look to gas in mag solutions since an AEG is far more reliable for that type of thing.

Exactly! Hence my confusion as to why everyone is jumping on the "Internal Gas Solution Sucks" band wagon. Aside from cost, which I accept can be expensive, I'm not seeing a whole lot of downside to this gun. Yes, it's probably more a novelty gun than a skirmishable Airsoft weapon, especially when in the presence of AEGs. But that's really not much different than if you took a long barreled KSC TMP GBB into a game against AEGs. It feels like people are looking at this as an Armalite first, and as a GBB Rifle as a distant second. That kind of thinking would inherently garner comparisons of the TK C8 to AEG M4s, which would clearly outmatch the TK C8 for a variety of reasons. But to me, it still seems that once TK has ironed out the kinks, it'll be a pretty solid piece... for what it is.

As for power, you just know once this rifle has been released the aftermarket airsoft manufacturers will make power upgrades. If you can upgrade an all metal pistol to shoot on Red, you could probably do the same with this gun with the right mods (not that I would use Red... I'm just sayin').

Hop-up... well last I read we still don't have any info on if one is present or not. Knowing TK, there will probably be one. If that Hop-up is any good is a whole other matter. However, whether or not this gun has hop-up seems like a completely separate issue from the internal vs. external gas debate.

So... considering this C8 is a GBB rifle first and foremost, and it'll probably be very expensive... what else is so bad about it?

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my concerns difficulty in obtaining parts, cost of mags, wear rate on mag seals (OK same technology as SMG and pistols but this is a primary thats going to get a lot more use). Likely amount of recoil in the system (buffer and spring look pretty weeny). Inflexibility of an unregulated 134a system when it comes to range of useable temperatures. Greater propensity for cooldown than a pistol thats stroking little more than an inch and a bit to cyle its slide versus at least twice that to cyle a rifle bolt with a realistic stroke and enough mass to simulate a decent amount of recoil.

If the gun itself was cheap total cost of ownership might not be too bad (an X hundred bucks SP with x hundred bucks of upgrades and cheap mags could equal same overall cost versus a few hundred bucks TK with mags at 80 a pop) however if the rifle winds up same cost to purchase as an upgraded SP in the first place then each mag adds significantly to the overall cost.

Its a shame they didnt go with two different mag soultions ie Complete 'gas in mag' mags and some sort of magwell adapter that would replicate the top of a gas mag yet allow external airsource to be fed in from rear of the rifle and used with simple spring fed mag to lock onto the bottom of it. Considering how much of an armalite mag is inside the magwell the join wouldnt even be noticeable externally.

Edit yes it does have hop up thats been established for a while - check out TKs own site and you'll see photo of the hop adjustment dial that sits above the front of the bolt



one things for sure it'll have better preformance than his sten does tongue.gif

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QUOTE (snorkelman @ Oct 16 2007, 06:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
my concerns difficulty in obtaining parts, cost of mags, wear rate on mag seals (OK same technology as SMG and pistols but this is a primary thats going to get a lot more use). Likely amount of recoil in the system (buffer and spring look pretty weeny). Inflexibility of an unregulated 134a system when it comes to range of useable temperatures. Greater propensity for cooldown than a pistol thats stroking little more than an inch and a bit to cyle its slide versus at least twice that to cyle a rifle bolt with a realistic stroke and enough mass to simulate a decent amount of recoil.

*snip*

So in summation, aside from a greater likelihood for cool down due to a longer stroke for the bolt to cycle... and price (which we've already established will probably be high), this TK C8 has about the same potentical as a KSC Steyr TMP. I can live with that.

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QUOTE (uscm corps)
It feels like people are looking at this as an Armalite first, and as a GBB Rifle as a distant second. That kind of thinking would inherently garner comparisons of the TK C8 to AEG M4s, which would clearly outmatch the TK C8 for a variety of reasons. But to me, it still seems that once TK has ironed out the kinks, it'll be a pretty solid piece... for what it is.


Well he has a ak74su with this same design coming out IIRC, but im not exactly doing the happy dance for the same reasons snorkelman pointed out

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QUOTE (Azulsky)
Well he has a ak74su with this same design coming out IIRC, but im not exactly doing the happy dance for the same reasons snorkelman pointed out


So what you are saying there is if you want a succesful GBB 'primary' you make sure it's not made as a AEG before hand?

Doesn't that limit the choice a bit?

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What upsets the most about this gun is it is a massive fail on a C8 replica. The barrel is wrong even for the basic C8A2, the carry handle is wrong. The C8 has a fixed rear sight. And the stock is the wrong sort. It looks like they have just re-badged a M4.

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QUOTE (Surreel Big Fish @ Oct 17 2007, 05:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What upsets the most about this gun is it is a massive fail on a C8 replica. The barrel is wrong even for the basic C8A2, the carry handle is wrong. The C8 has a fixed rear sight. And the stock is the wrong sort. It looks like they have just re-badged a M4.


But its got thermold magazines!!! rolleyes.gif

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QUOTE (Spedz @ Oct 17 2007, 03:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So what you are saying there is if you want a succesful GBB 'primary' you make sure it's not made as a AEG before hand?

Doesn't that limit the choice a bit?


No, its performance im worried about, it could be my dream gun(hk21) and if it didnt perform then i would look the other way without shedding a tear.
Plus that would make me a hypocrite because my gbb primary(mp5) is made as a aeg

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Hmm I just don't see this being skirmishable - yeah ok if you're a milsimer who only uses single shot it maybe (just) viable.

Frankly I'll stick with my AEGs and go with my newly aquired SP M16 for that blowback/recoil 'need'.

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For those of you who are worried this is a hfc134 only gun, if you google translate the page they talk about an export version having CO2 mags, I think.. the translation is kind of vague but it looks like that's what it says.

Looks like they also talk about a mechanical 3 round burst system being considered.

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