Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)

[Shinden]

ieatdirt

 

(Shinden @ Nov 23 2007, 06:57 PM)

If you like quality, forget clones grab a major manufacturer's gun.

Now you are concerned about the range and accuracy so I were you I would choose the full length M14 model over the SOCOM (despite it is also a very great weapon), but you will need that extra barrel length for that accuarcy. If you are concerned about the length of the weapon, grab a Bi-pod for it.

 

Wow, total BS. The JG M4s, G36s, and MP5s I've had experience with were better than their TM counterparts in every way. Unless you're talking about T89s, of which the clone hasn't been released yet, I think of most clones as higher quality than TM, and that's purely coming from experience. The M14 was an exception until the CYMA came out, and, with its higher power and standard tightbore (as well as drastically lower price), the CYMA would be a better gun in my book. Of course, the G&G still kicks the *beep* out of everything else on the market, but that's not relevant to the clone vs. TM debate. The bit about range and accuracy due to barrel lengh is a load too. Once you get past standard carbine length (around 300mm), a longer barrel has no noticeable effect on accuracy whatsoever. You might get a 1cm grouping tighter at 150 feet, but that's small enough to be an error in measurement. Besides, this is airsoft, where our weapons aren't accurate enough for it to matter anyways. I also don't see how a bipod would have any effect on what the length of the weapon is like. Frankly, bipods are only really useful when you're shooting real steel or you're target shooting. Out in the field, they're just extra weight. I also don't see the advantage of having a SOCOM instead of a regular M14. The barrel is less than 100mm shorter, and the overall gun is only a few inches shorter at the barrel. The whole gun still protrudes less than a foot from your front hand, and that 3 inches isn't going to make too terribly much of a difference.

I believe you have read my post wrong. When I pointed out about quality, this is an issue about the overall build of the gun. You cannot expect high quality from products that are mass-produced with a certain level of quality control of the product line. I have been selling many Major brand AEGs as well as many Chinese manufactured guns (especially CYMA, DBOY, JG, A&K, JLS, and more) and before each product is sold I have to manually inspect some parts of the gun if there is a defect before the customer complains. What was very good to know was couple TSD branded M14's have thier stock wires reversed and not to mention I have come across some with the wires grounded and not inserted through the small compartment. Quality in a product is something that includes trademark, overall reliability, respectable power, accuracy, and range and most important 3rd party parts compatibility. Most Clone guns can accept 3rd party parts, however each gun is different and certain parts that worked well with a certain brand will not usually work at it's optimal performance. That's not quality there. Just because a certain clone of a major brand gun has not come out does not mean its already a high quality replica. And to note, there has been a Type 89 clone. Bipods in airsoft do help to let you level your gun on a solid ground. If you were to shoot a long rifle, some people will have difficulty holding the gun up just to make a nice clean shot on a specific and desired target. With a bipod, you can rest the gun, take your time, and aim. Guarentee you will eliminate your gun from wobbling around when you are to hold it up. Everybody is different, but bipods reduce motion and permit more accurate shooting and elimnates stress to the user's arms. How can that not be of any effect? It will help for some people, yet others could be weight. It doesn't mean its completely useless in airsoft.

 

The bit about range and accuracy due to barrel lengh is a load too. Once you get past standard carbine length (around 300mm), a longer barrel has no noticeable effect on accuracy whatsoever. You might get a 1cm grouping tighter at 150 feet, but that's small enough to be an error in measurement. Besides, this is airsoft, where our weapons aren't accurate enough for it to matter anyways.

Range and accuracy. This is assisted by the inner barrel's length and diameter as well as the power of the gun and the BB weight/brand. Longer inner barrel especially tightbore type of barrels will make your groupings much better ( but this depends on what brand of barrel you buy, the diameter, the length, the hop up type, and the current power setting). Some weapons in airsoft are highly accurate so even couple inches of grouping will help the user in a game.

 

A local guy, as well as Sid on here did a test comparing accuracy and range with different length barrels. They all got the same result: once you get past standard carbine length, there is no noticeable increase in accuracy or range. As for clones being better, the M4, MP5, and G36 were all far more solid feeling and weren't creaky like their TM counterparts. The material on the G36 is much higher quality than a TM. The performance on every JG gun I've seen outdoes a TM, too. Plus, they all cost much less, and don't have dremel scars from trade removal.

 

Inner barrels work at it's best when combined with the correct power ratio, BB type, inner barrel type, length, and diameter. Every gun is different like I said, but that doesn't mean clones are high quality weapons. For the price of a JG gun with the stock power(350FPS), now that is something beyond anything a Marui can do. That's were JG guns shines, which is the economy based marketed guns. They are cheap, upgraded, and comes with all you need so it opens the market to a whole new group. The economy based people, the starters, and people who believes it matches thier criteria of an airsoft gun.

 

Just because certain clone guns feel more rock solid here and there, they STILL lack something the orignal manufacturers have/has and even the higher upgrade potentials some companies have. Trademark wise, if you order them from certain companies, they do not dremal out the trademarks on M14s. I've seen also places the dremal out the Colt logos and other places that uses a sticker. So it all depends on where you buy your high quality trade marked guns. Certain clone guns don't need to worry about this because some don't come with accurate trademarks at all. And for people who don't care about trademarks, clones work out good for the money. For people who knows the high quality benchmark of airsoft guns, they will do anything just to have those little words on thier guns intact.

[Tippmann2000]

Ok, heres the bottom line... its all about name. TM has its name and there will always be fanboys who will stick behind it 100%.

 

I have owned TM's, 3 to be persice.... and I have owned 2 JG's and in all honesty a stock JG will out fire, out range and kill any stock TM you put up to it. Now, Not knowing witch will outlast each other stock, I do know that for the same price of the TM I can build a JG with 400+ fps with some of the best internals, and for $50 more over the TM price I can have a full metal body and a good stock and scope, and I can tell you that will outlast any TM 4 times over.

 

Yes TM is a great brand and great gun... but JG and ECHO 1 are making beter guns for the price.

 

Now to get back on subject.... The JG G36 has got to have the best range ive seen on a stock AEG, but then again some M14's have good range aswell, but it depends on the barrel length...

[Abelius]

Re the SOCOM... *snap*

... it just doesn't fit right.

Can I ask what about it feels weird? No sarcasm inbound, as I haven't got to play much with the shorter one. IMO the stock alone is much better though, and have one on my full lenght M14. Haha, if something is weird after putting the SOCOM-stock in, it's that the gun doesn't wobble anywhere anymore.

[Shinden]

ieatdirt

If you were paying any attention, you'd notice that we're strictly talking about using a marginally longer barrel to get more accuracy, which I (and those who tested just that) said is false. In this case, my claim is that a full length M14 will not be any more accurate than a SOC16 of the same company, power, and hop specs.

A slightly longer barrel of the same company will provide the gun a better overall range and overall accuracy combined with the type of BBs used (if the gun is stock).

 

TM M4s develop barrel wobble before clones. If you hit a tree with a TM and a JG, I'd trust the JG to hold up better. I've never seen a new JG gun go DOA. Clones don't have to update to get to the "TM standard," because almost every company on the market has already passed said standard (with only JLS and possibly A&K being still behind it). They update to put out better products. Clones nowadays are made with stronger internal parts, have better externals, deliver better performance, and cost less. Give me one reason you should buy a TM M4 that will develop barrel wobble, deliver worse performance, and cost more in place of a clone that beats it in pretty much every way.

 

Barrel wobbles also exists on JGs if the screws are not taken care of sometimes. Clone AEGs are just what most airsofters need in airsoft compared to super-hobby-grade companies like TM. That's the difference. Yet I will still buy a Marui M4A1 just for that fact that it was assembled/made in Japan. And a second reason, maximum stability and compatibility with most Japanese made parts.

 

 

Wild_XIII Posted Yesterday, 10:10 PM

My JG M733 lasted far longer than my TM one ever did, and as far as I know it's still going strong. Also on build construction, I fell on my JG M733 and where any Marui would instantly snap in half the JG stood up to it and survived with nothing more than a couple of marks on the receiver.

 

This is a grey issue. Couple of my customers did that on thier JG's too and they got the same result as the TM ones too. Now this isn't about TM vs. JG as most of it is the same, and actually it is about the same.

[Connery]

TM M4s develop barrel wobble before clones.

 

Um, in case you haven't heard, out of the Colts, the second generation of the M4, M4-S, and SR-16 don't have the barrel wobble problem.

 

If you hit a tree with a TM and a JG, I'd trust the JG to hold up better.

 

Erm, if you it a tree with any gun, I'd trust it to break. Even a Systema, unless someone is willing to prove me otherwise.

 

I've never seen a new JG gun go DOA.

 

Then you obviously don't work in a shop.

 

Clones don't have to update to get to the "TM standard," because almost every company on the market has already passed said standard (with only JLS and possibly A&K being still behind it). They update to put out better products. Clones nowadays are made with stronger internal parts, have better externals, deliver better performance, and cost less.

 

So, guns that die from the abuse of stupid kids before higher quality ones don't need updates? 'Kay, totally following you there.

 

Give me one reason you should buy a TM M4 that will develop barrel wobble, deliver worse performance, and cost more in place of a clone that beats it in pretty much every way.

 

Basically, you get what you pay. The only clone gun I own is a JLS FN2000, simply because another company hasn't put one out, and I intend to screw around with the gun. If you continue to buy clones, then I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're not into the hobby. All you want to do is shoot, so if that's the case, buy a real gun.

[my_plague_666]

well, isnt shooting the main part of airsoft. and why should he buy a real gun? he cant skirmish with that, just shoot bits of paper and thats just downright repetitive. well, i guess you could skirmish with a real gun, people would take their hits... but then you'd have to deal with those pesky ARUs with hot guns, and theyre not at all sporting are they?

[Connery]

Because if all he does is want to shoot, then why does it have to be airsoft? If he wants to shoot other people so badly, then he should join the Marines.

[Shinden]

lol I think we've covered enough Viper2681, anyways let's help the chap out with what affordable accurate and long ranged guns he can buy for the money.

 

Let's start it all over.

First for around 80~100~200USD range

JG MP001 Bolt action rifle. This is a complete knock off of Tokyo Marui VSR-10, however the velocity is over 380~400FPS. Roughly retails from 55~80USD. One of the more better clone bolt action rifles on the market.

 

If power is too high for UK regulations, go for the Tokyo Marui VSR-10 Pro Sniper model or the G-Spec model shooting at around 300FPS+. With this rifle, it is possible to swap out most parts with many aftermarket parts and as well as higher power customizations. Max on the Marui VSR-10 is over 760FPS (which I chronoed myself for authenticity).

 

Next in the bolt action series is the (the 295~350USD range) the Maruzen APS2 rifle. This rifle would be one of the most stable rifle in terms of range, accuracy, and power. This is the most farthest shooting thing in airsoft once tuned correctly. I don't believe I've seen anything that could compete with a Maruzen APS2 bolt action rifle in its class.

 

---

The AEG series:

 

CYMA M14 (I will warn you on this one despite some users are happy with the gun that the gun is manufactured in China and has a SLIGHT chance of some imperfections, defects, and little upgrade potentials, but general parts can be still changed out.) Cheap alternative though. Lack of trademarks are another thing.

 

Tokyo Marui M14 (Full length OD/Wood model) at roughly 300~400USD, this M14 has proven itself over most competitors. For folks who think the G&G model is better I do beg to differ. Even our forum user's site (AEX) has a very good review of it. http://www.airsoftextreme.com/store/index....amp;pages_id=22

If you are also interested, my friend (which I also chronoed to verify) had his M14 SOCOM (stock inner barrel) shoot 500FPS+ with only 4 parts changed out. Strong, reliable, smooth, accurate, and long range (due to the FPS, but not as accurate as a full lengthed inner barrel in the reg. M14s as the Socom uses the M4 length inner barrel while the reg. M14 uses over 400mm.)

 

That being said another accurate, ranged, affordable gun is the basic M16 series. JG also provides many models on the M16 platform as the A2 and the A4 model with the rails. Power is set to around 375FPS+/-.

 

There are more guns out there, however the other thing is what suits you the best.

[Phatvortex]

Because if all he does is want to shoot, then why does it have to be airsoft? If he wants to shoot other people so badly, then he should join the Marines.

 

Thats utterly pathetic. There is fanboy-ism, then there is downright idiocy. You fall into the second category. Clones are great in my book. If you buy a TM to upgrade over a clone, then thats just a wee silly don't you think?

 

And all this over what country a gun shaped toy is made in? Bloody hell.

[Shinden]

QUOTE (viper2681 @ Nov 24 2007, 11:22 AM)

If you continue to buy clones, then I'm sorry to tell you this, but you're not into the hobby. All you want to do is shoot, so if that's the case, buy a real gun.

 

Because if all he does is want to shoot, then why does it have to be airsoft? If he wants to shoot other people so badly, then he should join the Marines

 

I also do think the idea of buying multiple clones does not mean he/she is not into airsoft. Some people just don't have the money, or don't know what to buy, or just want something they believed they liked. I don't know where you got the idea of 'buy a real gun thing if you like shooting' if you just based it from him liking clones. That was alittle too harsh for a 17yr old.

 

I rather spend quality time and money on something I know that looks good, feels good, shoots good, and works good over something that is lacking something here and there.

 

Nothing is wrong about liking clones. Just believing them to be the best/greatest thing would be something I would beg to differ.

[gunnermaniac]

I think I will get the cyna m14 socom.

Who are all these insults from viper directed at???(hope its not me lol...)

 

Thanks guys

[Lance Jackass]

The P90 seems to have decent range and accuracy at even stock levels - terrific hop up unit.

[stewpidbear]

Gunnermanic, I know your size mate, leave the M14 until you're a bit bigger. Although it's a great gun, it's long and heavy. As you've already got a long G36 go for something more compact and handy, especially for cqb, shorter range work. Even the socom is really too long for cqb. Compact and accurate/long barrel, look for a bullpup style weapon.

[choffman10]

I think I will get the cyna m14 socom.

Who are all these insults from viper directed at???(hope its not me lol...)

 

Thanks guys

Good choice, from what I've seen and read it's one of the best clones on the market. And for the money you can upgrade it to be even more of a monster than it already is. I'd recomend you should get it off pointact.com, or airsplat.com. And don't worry airsplat is reliable, in my dealings with them anyway.

 

And I don't think Viper was insulting you.

[gunnermaniac]

Gunnermanic, I know your size mate, leave the M14 until you're a bit bigger. Although it's a great gun, it's long and heavy. As you've already got a long G36 go for something more compact and handy, especially for cqb, shorter range work. Even the socom is really too long for cqb. Compact and accurate/long barrel, look for a bullpup style weapon.

 

Yeah thanks for pointing out my midgetness . I really wanted the socom but you are probably right, looks like I will get the DBOYS CQB-R as it will probably be more manageable.

 

Thanks for all the help guys

 

EDIT: I don't live in america so I don't think I can buy off airsplat. Thanks anyway though, as you can see from this post I have chosen against the socom because of my size

 

Thanks

[stewpidbear]

If you're looking at M4's have a look at the JG M4 - F Para which has a side folding stock, making it even shorter for cqb. And don't worry about your size, Im only 5'5".

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I don't wanna drag the 'argument' up again, but I have say that claiming that "if someone buys clones they aren't into airsoft and should just go join the Marines" is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard! and that's including 'Intelligent' Design in the contenders.

Congratulations Viper, you are well on the way to a Darwin Award.

[gunnermaniac]

If you're looking at M4's have a look at the JG M4 - F Para which has a side folding stock, making it even shorter for cqb. And don't worry about your size, Im only 5'5".

 

Yeah I was seriously conidering the Para but I don't particularly like the look of it that is why I decided against it.

 

Being tall enough to use a m14 (not socom) is a dream away ( the CA36 is pushing it to the limits ), oh well, life goes on, atleast I am a smaller target .

 

 

Thanks for the help guys

[Xaccers]

Can I ask what about it feels weird? No sarcasm inbound, as I haven't got to play much with the shorter one. IMO the stock alone is much better though, and have one on my full lenght M14. Haha, if something is weird after putting the SOCOM-stock in, it's that the gun doesn't wobble anywhere anymore.

 

I found that being a "proper" rifle, where I was supposed to place my left hand to rest it was too close to my body, the comfortable place to put it was about where the gas tube under the barrel is.

Also the black plastic body of the TM felt horrible.

Going from the SOCOM then holding a full length M14 was like going into heaven, the M14 just fits perfectly, wouldn't want one though, it's not for me, but it felt much nicer than the SOCOM.

Like I said, myself, it's owner, and the person he sold it on to after playing just one game with it (who now is trying to sell it on) all found it not nice enough to want to keep it.

Now for many people it will be a perfect gun I'm sure, but it's definitely one to try before you buy, just in case.

A bit like the P90, for many people it's perfect, for others it's too short so they need the longer butt, while for others it's just too cramped.

[gunnermaniac]

I read Shindens post saying that the JG BAR 10 is good, I would like to know what you people think is the best budget sniper (I will not be getting it as I am coing for CQB weapon, just out of interest really) it has to be under £150.

 

Thanks

[Shinden]

I wouldn't really recommend the D Dboys M4 CQB model as thier fuses and battery are just finicky to begin with as well as other cosmetic defects. Don't belive me? <a href="http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...howtopic=115852" target="_blank">http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...howtopic=115852</a> I guess you are moving away from the 'Most Accurate and ranged' gun? Now we're into 'Most Accurate CQB' gun? In that case with only £150,

so roughly $307.00. That's a good range for most weapons! Ok let's start if off for around $300.00 weapons.

 

Now before I begin, Pistols are excellent CQB weapons too so that is also another thing to consider.

 

First there are major brand guns out there that provides the best accuracy and range over FPS while keeping the gun compact. What I recommend to you are:

TM MP7A1 Simple one of the most popular gun that is accurate and quiet. Compact, yet extend the stock for a rifle like weapon. (Don't go for the G7 from Galaxy)

TM MAC10 (Just released, might be worth the wait!)

TM Vz.61 Very compact gun with a stable hop up. (If you like the metal feel of the gun with an optional mini-drum mag)

TM P90 A bulpup weapon in which it's performance makes up for size. Very accuracte for t CQB weapon and plenty of potential for parts. The P90TR model also includes a silencer too. (I don't recommend the clone model)

TM G3 SAS / or a clone of the G3 SAS

TM / JG MP5 series (the MP5K will not be accurate, yet one of the fun weapons. TSD also makes one for around $95.)

JG/TM/KWA M4, M733, M4CQB . The JG and TM M4 series are both plastic, however again like my other post stated the Marui will be a more stable gun than the JG's hop up system. The JG will shoot stronger though. The All new KWA KM4A1 will be the best choice in the M4 series, but wait a little bit and the limited edition CQB model will be out. The DBOY M4 series are not bad for the price and the fullmetal series sound good, but externally you will find many blotches of glue here and there so the finish of the gun are not great at all for the M4 series. Not to mention thier fuses are those smaller ones too.

TM/JG SIG 552 (The compact smart looking weapon!)

TM AK Beta Spetsnaz (There are clones too, but the original is the way to go too. CYMA makes one too.) The most tried and true AK design for CQB. Black, compact, railmount, large battery, short front end makes it the harmony of CQB AKs.

 

I cannot recommend anything else on the bolt action rifles (I believe some other users may contribute), but the best ones for around your price range (even for CQB use) is the TM VSR10 G-SPEC.

The G-Spec model is like the regular VSR-10, but it sports a rail system, sling mounts, differen bolt, new trigger, a bull barrel, and a silencer that works. The gun itself is a lightweight platform with a 25 round magazine. If you think the silencer is long, you can remove it for CQB. And actually where I work at, we have a indoor CQB feild and many of our veteran players uses the G-SPEC in our 2500sq ft. range. It is one of the highly accurate guns, but you can still make it even more accurate. And it's got plenty of potential in both looks and power. I had mines turned into the famous Black Boa VSR10.

[gunnermaniac]

I wouldn't really recommend the D Dboys M4 CQB model as thier fuses and battery are just finicky to begin with as well as other cosmetic defects. Don't belive me? <a href="http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...howtopic=115852" target="_blank">http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...howtopic=115852</a> I guess you are moving away from the 'Most Accurate and ranged' gun? Now we're into 'Most Accurate CQB' gun? In that case with only £150,

so roughly $307.00. That's a good range for most weapons! Ok let's start if off for around $300.00 weapons.

 

Now before I begin, Pistols are excellent CQB weapons too so that is also another thing to consider.

 

First there are major brand guns out there that provides the best accuracy and range over FPS while keeping the gun compact. What I recommend to you are:

TM MP7A1 Simple one of the most popular gun that is accurate and quiet. Compact, yet extend the stock for a rifle like weapon. (Don't go for the G7 from Galaxy)

TM MAC10 (Just released, might be worth the wait!)

TM Vz.61 Very compact gun with a stable hop up. (If you like the metal feel of the gun with an optional mini-drum mag)

TM P90 A bulpup weapon in which it's performance makes up for size. Very accuracte for t CQB weapon and plenty of potential for parts. The P90TR model also includes a silencer too. (I don't recommend the clone model)

TM G3 SAS / or a clone of the G3 SAS

TM / JG MP5 series (the MP5K will not be accurate, yet one of the fun weapons. TSD also makes one for around $95.)

JG/TM/KWA M4, M733, M4CQB . The JG and TM M4 series are both plastic, however again like my other post stated the Marui will be a more stable gun than the JG's hop up system. The JG will shoot stronger though. The All new KWA KM4A1 will be the best choice in the M4 series, but wait a little bit and the limited edition CQB model will be out. The DBOY M4 series are not bad for the price and the fullmetal series sound good, but externally you will find many blotches of glue here and there so the finish of the gun are not great at all for the M4 series. Not to mention thier fuses are those smaller ones too.

TM/JG SIG 552 (The compact smart looking weapon!)

TM AK Beta Spetsnaz (There are clones too, but the original is the way to go too. CYMA makes one too.) The most tried and true AK design for CQB. Black, compact, railmount, large battery, short front end makes it the harmony of CQB AKs.

 

I cannot recommend anything else on the bolt action rifles (I believe some other users may contribute), but the best ones for around your price range (even for CQB use) is the TM VSR10 G-SPEC.

The G-Spec model is like the regular VSR-10, but it sports a rail system, sling mounts, differen bolt, new trigger, a bull barrel, and a silencer that works. The gun itself is a lightweight platform with a 25 round magazine. If you think the silencer is long, you can remove it for CQB. And actually where I work at, we have a indoor CQB feild and many of our veteran players uses the G-SPEC in our 2500sq ft. range. It is one of the highly accurate guns, but you can still make it even more accurate. And it's got plenty of potential in both looks and power. I had mines turned into the famous Black Boa VSR10.

 

Cheers for your advice Shinden, what is the TM pro sniper like???

 

Also I am not sure if we are talking about the same M4 it is this one: http://www.actionhobbys.co.uk/D-Boys-M4-CQB-R-AEG_AHAN6.aspx .

 

Thanks

 

[Shinden]

The TM PRO Sniper model is a full size rifle with no bull barrel (like a regular M700 like barrel) and has no sling mounts, scope rail, but has a traditional bolt style, trigger, and open sights. Only good thing is that is has a longer inner barrel and outer barrel so a high power custom gun is much easier to make (compared to the vsr10 G-PEC which needs a 14mm silencer adapter/or a regular outer barrel to hide the longer inner barrel for high end customs.) Overall it is cheaper then G-SPEC, but I recommend you go with the G-SPEC.

 

Actually I was also referring to that M4 CQB too. I had to include the SPR one because even for that big rifle there are flaws. I have both guns in my shop, but honestly it's not best seller. Just problem after problem.

[choffman10]

Shinden, tsk, tsk, tsk. You forgot about the Galaxy Mp5 PDW, I've got one on the way. I'm 5'2 and bought an M16 as my first Aeg, not a good idea. Here is a 14 page thread all about the wonderful gun.

[Shinden]

Oy lol don't expect me to list everything down chooman10! The Galaxy model is also a fullmetal MP5K too gunnermaniac. It comes a little pricey like a stock MP5K from Marui. The MP5K series as is just proved itself in CQB a lot over the past couple years. As for accuracy, good choice chooman10 for .25g BBs. Heavier the weight for BBs, your AEG will shoot more accurate with the correct BB weight, hop up adjustment, and brand of BB. So if you want to also inflict maximum damage, use .30g BBs from KSC.