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Hijacked thread: Clones vs TM (mainly)


gunnermaniac

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The TM PRO Sniper model is a full size rifle with no bull barrel (like a regular M700 like barrel) and has no sling mounts, scope rail, but has a traditional bolt style, trigger, and open sights. Only good thing is that is has a longer inner barrel and outer barrel so a high power custom gun is much easier to make (compared to the vsr10 G-PEC which needs a 14mm silencer adapter/or a regular outer barrel to hide the longer inner barrel for high end customs.) Overall it is cheaper then G-SPEC, but I recommend you go with the G-SPEC.

 

Actually I was also referring to that M4 CQB too. I had to include the SPR one because even for that big rifle there are flaws. I have both guns in my shop, but honestly it's not best seller. Just problem after problem.

 

Damn you! Now I have to choose another gun! :P

 

 

 

CHOSEN :D . TM Benelli M3 shorty.

 

Any problems with that :angry::P

 

Thanks :)

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lol no problems on your 2nd choice! Benelli M3 eh? You handled one at your local shop? If not, I would suggest you handle one first before buying ANY of the Marui shotgun series. Reason? The spring pump action can be a little tough for guys who don't have 'big guns' in thier arms. Main problem is double cocking. What that means is if you try and half cock the weapon (usually becuase the spring is strong so the user does not fully pull the pump back), will allow the gun to already load three BBs in the chamber without the spring cocked. This means when you pull the pump back again, you'll have another 6 shots in the barrel which breaks up the hop chamber of the shotgun. It's a rather expensive part that breaks if the pump is not pulled back or is misused.

 

That aside, the Marui M3 series is one of the more simple, yet effective shotguns you can buy. Shooting at aronud 265FPS, all three BBs have hop up on them so your shots are very straight and consistent. If you believe you don't have confidence to pull the pump, I can also suggest on the full-size model as you can use the stock as leverage. Anyways if you decide on it, I'll give you a picture on how to properly cock the gun.

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lol no problems on your 2nd choice! Benelli M3 eh? You handled one at your local shop? If not, I would suggest you handle one first before buying ANY of the Marui shotgun series. Reason? The spring pump action can be a little tough for guys who don't have 'big guns' in thier arms. Main problem is double cocking. What that means is if you try and half cock the weapon (usually becuase the spring is strong so the user does not fully pull the pump back), will allow the gun to already load three BBs in the chamber without the spring cocked. This means when you pull the pump back again, you'll have another 6 shots in the barrel which breaks up the hop chamber of the shotgun. It's a rather expensive part that breaks if the pump is not pulled back or is misused.

 

That aside, the Marui M3 series is one of the more simple, yet effective shotguns you can buy. Shooting at aronud 265FPS, all three BBs have hop up on them so your shots are very straight and consistent. If you believe you don't have confidence to pull the pump, I can also suggest on the full-size model as you can use the stock as leverage. Anyways if you decide on it, I'll give you a picture on how to properly cock the gun.

 

Yeh I am going to get this one. If you could send me those pictures that would be great.

 

Thanks :)

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Got on this one a bit late but every time Marui bring out a new gun, the accuracy gets better (some one will now remind me of an exception to that).

 

The M14 is cracking & although fps is low, the MP7 & glock18 aep's are (for their size) unbelievable.

 

I can also vouch for Ice's G36 (not for sale), Upto 50m it will not miss & beyond that there is a pretty good chance, this is not down to excessive fps. This is a great example of taking a good gun & making it better.

 

I took a standard p90, added a lalax barrel & madbull silicon shark hop (total cost £50) & nearly doubled effective range. Stock it was accurate to about 25m & could chuck a bb out to 40m. After the mod it was giving the original 25m groups at 45m!

 

Out of the box performance is one thing, but the correct application of tuning can't be overlooked.

 

 

Greg.

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Let's all jump on the bandwagon!

 

Thats utterly pathetic. There is fanboy-ism, then there is downright idiocy. You fall into the second category. Clones are great in my book. If you buy a TM to upgrade over a clone, then thats just a wee silly don't you think?

 

And all this over what country a gun shaped toy is made in? Bloody hell.

 

Okay, to put it mildly:

 

Clones = No real upgrade potential.

 

I have no idea about where you live, but here, people love to tune their guns to their exact specifications. Clones don't offer this. Sure, they're cheap, but you can't do ###### to it. Of note, if you buy a TM to upgrade over a clone, you're stupid, yes. If you buy a clone because you want quality, you're stupid. If you build your own gun over a clone, you're smart.

 

Stuff

 

Pity I didn't catch this earlier, I'd have talked to you about it today.

 

And I don't think Viper was insulting you. :argue::waggle:

 

Correct, I wasn't insulting anyone.

 

I don't wanna drag the 'argument' up again, but I have say that claiming that "if someone buys clones they aren't into airsoft and should just go join the Marines" is the single most idiotic thing I have ever heard! and that's including 'Intelligent' Design in the contenders.

Congratulations Viper, you are well on the way to a Darwin Award.

 

Don't want to drag it up again? Way to go doing just that instead of sending me a PM! And how is it idiotic? If you don't want to tune your gun, all you want to do is shoot. If all you want to do is shoot, you probably want that realism. If you want the realism...you see where I'm going with this. Also note, I said hobby, not sport. If you were to tell me, "Oh, Airsoft isn't a hobby, it's a sport," I probably would have seen where you mindset is and retracted my statement. A bit late for that, though.

 

Besides, what greg said just now

 

Out of the box performance is one thing, but the correct application of tuning can't be overlooked.

 

Sums up my point of view, just a lot nicer.

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Clones = No real upgrade potential.

 

I have no idea about where you live, but here, people love to tune their guns to their exact specifications. Clones don't offer this. Sure, they're cheap, but you can't do ###### to it. Of note, if you buy a TM to upgrade over a clone, you're stupid, yes. If you buy a clone because you want quality, you're stupid. If you build your own gun over a clone, you're smart.

 

Would you please elaborate on that?

It just doesn't seem, at face value, to make any sense.

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Do any of the following count as upgrades or tuning? Only I've done them at various times to my clone:

 

Reshimming and bearing replacement to make it quieter.

Replacing the motor and modifying the piston to increase ROF.

Modifying the hop unit to improve range and accuracy.

Modifications I won't go into to tune the FPS to my required setting (and not just the spring neither).

Replacing the motor and fitting a newly modified piston setup to reduce the ROF again (and improve various aspects of the performance).

Adjusting the trigger mechanism to improve responsiveness.

 

I haven't changed the barrel, but it could easily be done. Come to think of it I have replaced a gear which was more compatible with the new motor if that helps. Everything I've done has been to tweak the gun to match my own specs (though as you can tell, I change my mind from time to time).

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Reshimming and bearing replacement to make it quieter.

Replacing the motor and modifying the piston to increase ROF.

Modifying the hop unit to improve range and accuracy.

Modifications I won't go into to tune the FPS to my required setting (and not just the spring neither).

Replacing the motor and fitting a newly modified piston setup to reduce the ROF again (and improve various aspects of the performance).

Adjusting the trigger mechanism to improve responsiveness.

 

I haven't changed the barrel, but it could easily be done. Come to think of it I have replaced a gear which was more compatible with the new motor if that helps. Everything I've done has been to tweak the gun to match my own specs (though as you can tell, I change my mind from time to time).

 

:mellow:

 

So...you spent how much doing all this?

 

Ties in with your question too, Xaccers.

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I've yet to see it done for cheap, Xaccers, sorry my statement was misinterpretable.

 

Well, considering most ACM are already firing at 328-350fps, gearbox internals don't normally need to be touched, especially as they're usually steel rather than soft alloy like TMs.

Most that's required is a new hop rubber, that's what? £5?

Hardly breaking the bank.

 

Compare that with what you have to do to get a TM shooting at 330-350fps for instance.

 

As for costs of extras like bearings, well how does the price of a set of bearings change if buying for an ICS compared to buying for an ACM?

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Well, considering most ACM are already firing at 328-350fps, gearbox internals don't normally need to be touched, especially as they're usually steel rather than soft alloy like TMs.

Most that's required is a new hop rubber, that's what? £5?

Hardly breaking the bank.

 

I've seen too many clones where you need to replace the motor, fuse breaks/melts, trigger fries, battery that comes with it too weak to push the gun, won't even fit in the gun, etc.

 

Compare that with what you have to do to get a TM shooting at 330-350fps for instance.

 

A whopping 35USD.

 

As for costs of extras like bearings, well how does the price of a set of bearings change if buying for an ICS compared to buying for an ACM?

 

Never said it did. Just saying that getting a clone to not die on you ends up costing a lot of time, money, and unneeded headache. At least when you buy a TM, it won't give you any hassle when it's stock.

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I've seen too many clones where you need to replace the motor, fuse breaks/melts, trigger fries, battery that comes with it too weak to push the gun, won't even fit in the gun, etc.

 

How well does the battery that comes with TM/ICS/CA perform? Oh that's right, it doesn't at all :)

JG batteries are great for example.

Yes, you're more likely to get a duff gun with a low end ACM, but as with most electromechanical items, if they're going to fail they'll do it within the first month, in which case you just swap it out and get a replacement.

 

 

A whopping 35USD.

 

Last time I checked £5 was less than $35 (unless the dollar has really plumetted recently!) :D

JG G36c for instance out performs TM G36cs with no modification required, so not only is it a heck of a lot cheaper to start with, you're saving a further amount of cash by not having to do anything to it.

Don't even have to buy a battery as it comes with a good one.

 

 

Never said it did. Just saying that getting a clone to not die on you ends up costing a lot of time, money, and unneeded headache. At least when you buy a TM, it won't give you any hassle when it's stock.

 

I've got 9 I've been using as rentals for the past year or so, not had a problem with them.

The ICS MP5 on the other hand, snapped gearbox, my first gun, a TM MP5, snapped gearbox in less than 6 months.

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How well does the battery that comes with TM/ICS/CA perform? Oh that's right, it doesn't at all :)

JG batteries are great for example.

Yes, you're more likely to get a duff gun with a low end ACM, but as with most electromechanical items, if they're going to fail they'll do it within the first month, in which case you just swap it out and get a replacement.

 

That all depends on where you buy it. Many people have been complaining that the batteries that come with the guns don't even last them one magazine worth. And in the JG M4-S, the damn thing won't even fit without "minor" modification, which has turned off a lot of people from buying the gun. I've actually seen one get returned just because of that.

 

Last time I checked £5 was less than $35 (unless the dollar has really plumetted recently!) :D

JG G36c for instance out performs TM G36cs with no modification required, so not only is it a heck of a lot cheaper to start with, you're saving a further amount of cash by not having to do anything to it.

Don't even have to buy a battery as it comes with a good one.

 

I've seen a fair share of JG G36C's die already. As for the battery, see above.

 

I've got 9 I've been using as rentals for the past year or so, not had a problem with them.

The ICS MP5 on the other hand, snapped gearbox, my first gun, a TM MP5, snapped gearbox in less than 6 months.

 

Oh, don't forget the SRC clones, which die faster than the CA M15A4s and TM M4-A1s.

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That all depends on where you buy it. Many people have been complaining that the batteries that come with the guns don't even last them one magazine worth. And in the JG M4-S, the damn thing won't even fit without "minor" modification, which has turned off a lot of people from buying the gun. I've actually seen one get returned just because of that.

 

You make sure, like any major airsoft purchase, you buy it from a store which offers a warranty.

Only a fool wouldn't do that.

We're talking about guns that are half the price of ICS/CA/TM, so DOAs are likely to be more frequent.

On the plus side, you're more likely to get a good one than a duff one, and save a fortune, and like I said, if you get a duff one, just exchange it.

 

I've seen a fair share of JG G36C's die already. As for the battery, see above.

 

How many? What was wrong with them? How old were they? Did they get them exchanged?

All the JG batteries mine have last a day, even the one that came with the JLS FN2000.

Dboys batteries aren't anything special, but like I said, how many rounds does the batteries CA/ICS/TM supply last?

 

Oh, don't forget the SRC guns, which die faster than the CA M15A4s.

 

Funny, my oldest rental is a SRC M4, still going strong.

 

 

Look at the price difference.

From AA

 

TM S-System £265

Spring £13

Piston head £15

Upgrade Labour £37

Battery £15 (component shop)

 

Total: £345

 

 

JG S-System £125

TM Hop rubber £5

 

Total: £130

 

Difference? A saving of £215 and you have a gun with steel gears instead of soft alloy. Even a tenner for someone to fit the hop rubber and you're still saving over £200 (that's over $400!)

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P.S Also I want to get a new hop up unit for my CA36 any suggestions????

 

And I want a new spring to make the FPS approximately 330 fps.

 

Thanks :)

 

The unit itself is fine (unless you've broken it).

I replaced my rubber with a guarder silicon bucking, be gentle with it, silicon is less forgiving than rubber when you install it.

 

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The unit itself is fine (unless you've broken it).

I replaced my rubber with a guarder silicon bucking, be gentle with it, silicon is less forgiving than rubber when you install it.

 

Not sure what that is ( I am a N00B when it comes to insides of guns! sorry) I think my unit is broken...sort of...the bit that you wind to make the BB spin more (I think, once again signs of my extreme n00bishness!) it just keeps winding, it resets itself!Although there is a point where it stops but a bit more pressure and you can keep winding, this is when it resets, I think the range has depleted since this problem has occured.

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

Still the questions, what spring to get for 330 fps

 

and

 

Any decent accessories for the M3 shorty.

 

Thanks :)

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You make sure, like any major airsoft purchase, you buy it from a store which offers a warranty.

Only a fool wouldn't do that.

We're talking about guns that are half the price of ICS/CA/TM, so DOAs are likely to be more frequent.

On the plus side, you're more likely to get a good one than a duff one, and save a fortune, and like I said, if you get a duff one, just exchange it.

 

And as I've said, I've seen returns of JGs due to them not being able to simply put in the battery.

 

How many?

 

I'm not authorized to say exact numbers, but I will tell you more than one.

 

What was wrong with them? How old were they? Did they get them exchanged?

 

Couldn't put in the battery/Battery wouldn't last. Brand new. And they traded up to TM.

 

All the JG batteries mine have last a day, even the one that came with the JLS FN2000.

Dboys batteries aren't anything special, but like I said, how many rounds does the batteries CA/ICS/TM supply last?

 

Sure, they still work, but they don't last. JLS FN2000 is an okay battery, can't argue with that one. Dboys batteries are the same ones that come with JG. Oh, and from the shop I get my guns at? Batteries last about 2500 shots. Like I said, depends where you buy the gun. ;)

 

Funny, my oldest rental is a SRC M4, still going strong.

 

Then I don't know what kind of steroids you put into it. The ones I've seen? Problems out the *albatross*. So many children sitting out games because it simply won't fire a shot.

 

Look at the price difference.

From AA

 

TM S-System £265

Spring £13

Piston head £15

Upgrade Labour £37

Battery £15 (component shop)

 

Total: £345

 

 

JG S-System £125

TM Hop rubber £5

 

Total: £130

 

Difference? A saving of £215 and you have a gun with steel gears instead of soft alloy. Even a tenner for someone to fit the hop rubber and you're still saving over £200 (that's over $400!)

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. Where I go, it's $410 for the TM M4-S package you speak of with the addition of metal bushings, and $145 for a paperweight that you can't use without breaking the battery that comes with it, which won't even last a magazine if you manage to fit it in.

 

Are there any worth while accessories for the TM Bennelli M3 shorty??? (Apart from shells)

 

Thanks :)

 

You could do barrels and springs, but if you change the spring, it gets a bit harder to rack. It's really up to you if the extra power is worth it.

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I'm not authorized to say exact numbers, but I will tell you more than one.

 

So it could be 2 then? ;)

 

Couldn't put in the battery/Battery wouldn't last. Brand new. And they traded up to TM.

 

Perhaps someone should have shown them how to fit the battery then? :D

 

Sure, they still work, but they don't last. JLS FN2000 is an okay battery, can't argue with that one. Dboys batteries are the same ones that come with JG. Oh, and from the shop I get my guns at? Batteries last about 2500 shots. Like I said, depends where you buy the gun. ;)

 

JG supply Shuang Ba batteries with most of their guns. The JLS isn't as good.

Like I said, TM/CA/ICS don't even come with batteries as standard, so there's that additional cost.

 

 

Then I don't know what kind of steroids you put into it. The ones I've seen? Problems out the *albatross*. So many children sitting out games because it simply won't fire a shot.

 

The only thing I've noticed about SRC is their sector gears appear to have a larger cam on them for the cutoff lever so if you replace it, you can lose semi (had to do a temporary swap with a mate's TM after his gun chewed it's gears).

Oh their motors are quite noisy though, more than ICS.

 

 

I have no idea where you're getting your numbers from. Where I go, it's $410 for the TM M4-S package you speak of with the addition of metal bushings, and $145 for a paperweight that you can't use without breaking the battery that comes with it, which won't even last a magazine if you manage to fit it in.

 

Airsoft Armoury, see, UK forum, UK prices, where petrol is getting close to £5 a gallon (that's a proper gallon mind you), hence why I run my car on vegetable oil :)

Apparently we're also a country of more reliable ACMs too. Bonus.

 

Given the choice between a $410 TM that needs upgrading and a $145 JG, I'd go for the JG, especially as several are full metal for a little more.

 

I'm not saying ACM are perfect, they're clearly not, you've got to expect more DOAs, hence why you make sure you buy from a reputable retailer who offers a warranty, but you're more likely to get a great gun for next to nothing than a dead gun, and compared with TM, you're getting more gun for your money, especially with the JG 36c :)

 

 

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