Copying Paintball Designs

[mcnuggets]

Take a look at this:

 

http://www.zdspb.com/tech/misc/animations.html

 

There is a wealth of well designed airgun systems for paintball that have been fine tuned over years of competitive play to be faster and more efficient. Why is airsoft reinventing the wheel everytime they come up with a new air system? Why is airsoft relying on an overly complicated system of gears and motors to fire BB's? Why aren't the Japanese doing what they do best; copying American designs and making them better?

 

Of course there are differences in what these systems were designed to do. To fire a 3.2g paintball at 300 fps (or 13.4 joules) is different than firing a 0.25g at 400 fps (or 1.87 joules). But I'd gather that some of these designs might be able to be scaled down and fitted to fire airsoft BB's. Think about what is possible under a paintball-like design. Adjustable ROF. Adjustable velocity. Efficient use of gas. Gearboxes without a shameful life expectancy. I can't understand why airsoft manufacturers haven't jumped on board already.

 

[Night_raven]

Firstly, Paintball in Japan isn't allowed....

 

Secondly, i think they already have a gas gearbox system, it's expensive and doesn't work as well.

 

Thirdly, gear and piston is more reliable, and more tempermental than gas.

[mcnuggets]

I'd disagree with one:

 

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1349705

 

(*edit: Also it being allowed or not allowed doesn't matter. They're copying the design, not playing paintball*)

 

And three. I think that a gear and piston isn't nearly as reliable. What's the lifespan on a piston nowadays? How many shots does it have at the 350-400 fps range before it goes? How about the gears?

[AGuy]

Get a classic. They use a BV design (bullet valve) which runs like this: http://www.classicairsoft.net/images/bv.htm

 

they run off of hydrogen/co2/o2.

[Jaager]

please just stop trying to turn airsoft into paintball, if you like paintball good for you, but this is an airsoft forum for airsofters, if i remember correctly quite a lot of your threads are on the same thing: trying to turn airsoft into paintball. please just stop now!

 

threads like this or turning airsoft to paintball by the op:

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=128818&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=110149&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=108821&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=108808&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=103902&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...=102781&hl=

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...c=15594&hl=

[mcnuggets]

Classics = No spare parts. Overpriced. Hard to find mags. No hopup.

 

It would take a lot of money to make a classic competitive.

 

please just stop trying to turn airsoft into paintball, if you like paintball good for you, but this is an airsoft forum for airsofters, if i remember correctly quite a lot of your threads are on the same thing: trying to turn airsoft into paintball. please just stop now!

 

How is this trying to turn AS into PB? This could make AS better. Milsim and all of that doesn't necessarily need to be sacrificed.

[Night_raven]

I'd disagree with one:

 

<a href="http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1349705" target="_blank">http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1349705</a>

 

(*edit: Also it being allowed or not allowed doesn't matter. They're copying the design, not playing paintball*)

 

And three. I think that a gear and piston isn't nearly as reliable. What's the lifespan on a piston nowadays? How many shots does it have at the 350-400 fps range before it goes? How about the gears?

 

Seeing as high end manufactures make sure there gears are to major high standards, i don't see how gas could replace the gear and piston.

 

My gear box has gone through 1,000 maybe 2,500 rounds since i've had it, and not once have i had to replace anything on the things.

 

As for the 350 - 400fps range, then that is where you upgrade the gears to take that kind of power, regardless of "but gas am best", as far as i'm aware, Japan discarded the gas rifle, due to it's unreliability, lack of oomph in the things, for a more ready to use system, just whack a battery in, load it up, and your flying.

 

Gas guns take a little while longer to prepare for example, during a fire fight, you run out of gas and ammunition, you then have to change the bottle, and then change the mag, which in my eyes, the enemy with a battery powered AEG will just come waltsing over and plant a few on you.

 

 

[AGuy]

Seeing as high end manufactures make sure there gears are to major high standards, i don't see how gas could replace the gear and piston.

 

My gear box has gone through 1,000 maybe 2,500 rounds since i've had it, and not once have i had to replace anything on the things.

 

As for the 350 - 400fps range, then that is where you upgrade the gears to take that kind of power, regardless of "but gas am best", as far as i'm aware, Japan discarded the gas rifle, due to it's unreliability, lack of oomph in the things, for a more ready to use system, just whack a battery in, load it up, and your flying.

 

Gas guns take a little while longer to prepare for example, during a fire fight, you run out of gas and ammunition, you then have to change the bottle, and then change the mag, which in my eyes, the enemy with a battery powered AEG will just come waltsing over and plant a few on you.

 

 

If by the "gas guns" you are reffering to classics, then no. You can run a co2 tank on a classic for around 2 days if you aren't trigger happy just fine. You can get more rpm as well and they come stock at about 315fps up, some come stock at about 500fps

 

 

Classics = No spare parts. Overpriced. Hard to find mags. No hopup.

 

It would take a lot of money to make a classic competitive.

 

 

 

How is this trying to turn AS into PB? This could make AS better. Milsim and all of that doesn't necessarily need to be sacrificed.

 

Not neccessarily. It depends what make you get, if you get one for example by JAC, they are still easily availabe and so in turn you can get spare parts easily. Although, with the classics design you don't really have to replace anything, the only thing that is prone to breaking is the o-rings (easy fix) and maybe some of the chamber parts, all which can be easily made by someone (like daytona gun) or other means. There are only two movieng parts, the trigger and barrel. Jac mags are still easily available and Jac guns run for about 200-300$ (search JAC airsoft on ebay). Mags cost about 25-30$ or so so yes they are a bit pricy but not much more than a metal midcap. You can always side with an escort whose magwell is compatible with marui and MAG mags i beleive. Yes there is a lack of hop up for most guns; you can always side as a CQB setup ( adding by the high rof with most of these guns) or get an escort whose internals have hop up. You can purchase an aftermarket SCS for almost all guns or you can go with an LRB which can give you a 90yard range max if you are tuned all correctly. My LRB can give me the same range as a n upgraded AUG. LRB stands for long range barrel and basically is either fatter on the bottom so when a bb is loaded it hits the bottom and is forced on top of the barrrel creating a backspin or the barrel is slanted downards so the bb hits the top in that manner. Range is adjsted by psi.

 

[Night_raven]

If by the "gas guns" you are reffering to classics, then no. You can run a co2 tank on a classic for around 2 days if you aren't trigger happy just fine. You can get more rpm as well and they come stock at about 315fps up, some come stock at about 500fps

 

I'm talking about modern day guns being converted to run on gas.

 

Sorry to say it, but the logic is flawed, you cannot simply do a days skirmish, with the amount of ammunition being flung about, without the gas going dead.

 

Aside, i don't want to lug a gas bottle around with me, complicated stuff, and i might as well wear a scuba divers gear, just to compliment the bottle.

 

 

[mcnuggets]

My gear box has gone through 1,000 maybe 2,500 rounds since i've had it, and not once have i had to replace anything on the things.

 

It must be a new gun because the mileage is still low. Do you think you'll need to replace a piston or a set of gears once that number reaches 200,000 shots?

 

As for the 350 - 400fps range, then that is where you upgrade the gears to take that kind of power, regardless of "but gas am best", as far as i'm aware, Japan discarded the gas rifle, due to it's unreliability, lack of oomph in the things, for a more ready to use system, just whack a battery in, load it up, and your flying.

 

I think the man in Japan began to run a tighter ship in the early-90's and imposed regulations on velocity that made manufacturing gas guns too much of a liability. AEG's have a built in velocity ceiling.

 

...lack of oomph...

 

I think you're mistaken here.

 

Gas guns take a little while longer to prepare for example, during a fire fight, you run out of gas and ammunition, you then have to change the bottle, and then change the mag, which in my eyes, the enemy with a battery powered AEG will just come waltsing over and plant a few on you.

 

When I owned a classic (Kokusai CAR-15) a 20 oz. bottle of CO2 used to last an entire day of playing. And considering that here in the states many airsoft events take place at paintball fields refilling gas becomes a non-issue. It isn't like that old Mauri video explaining the merits of their system you see on youtube.

[snorkelman]

need to avoid patent infringements,

need to adapt their manufacturing to a completly different technology from that they're familiar with

need for ginormous volumes of sales to justify develepment and bring the cost down.

need to regulate the CO2/HPa being used

need to squeeze that regulated system and the storage for the proppelant onto the gun or face the same issue every classic has of widespread bias against external rigs

 

Look at the internals of typical airsoft AEG - their manufacture is very cheap and very simple and correspond to technologies the Japanese have pleny of experience of in RC model design Gearsets, diecast gearbox housings, injection moulded pistons, electric motors and an oil seal or two. Then look at a decent paintball system - machined valves, hardened steel valve pins, loads of icky springs n what nots (plus a bundle of electronics if you want that controllable ROF and burst mode capability)

 

Then take your controllable power levels On a marker that fires at 13 joules theres plenty of scope for adjustment hell dropit all the way down to 6 joules if you fancy. Is there really a market for adjustable power airsoft guns when Japanese law dictates the maximum power can only be 1 juoule and thus all your adjustment of power is down the way?

 

Even go outside Japan and assume your talking about a country where sites regularly allow say 450 FPS without minimum engagement distances. Once again that is going to have to be the max power of the guns - otherwise theres the temptation for some clutz to decide to adjust his to 700 FPS cos hes awarded himself an exception to the rules.

 

Does anyone really want an airsoft gun that can be adjusted down from 320 FPS to 180 or down from 450 to 225?

 

Not everywhere has access to HPA or CO2 as power sources - some countries have laws in place that make one or both very difficult to obtain That leaves you with green or 134a and neither of those is suited to small 'on gun' internal reservoirs.

 

Theres a reason why theres little spares for classics - they arent popular in the mass market to justify mainstream manufacturers making parts for them They arent popular due to widespread bias against external rigs.

 

Add to all that paintball guns arent constricted to fitting within the confines of real firearm designs Need a 9 inch cylinder and a 3" by 5" box section underneath for electronics? nooo problem build the externals to suit Thats assbackwards from the airsoft way of doing things which starts with the external dimensions and shoehorns systems into them. Scale down the systems to a miniature form and you just dont have room for the levels of bolt travel and comoponent mass neccessary to simulate real weapons bolt travel or some sort of appreciable 'recoil'

[mcnuggets]

I'm talking about modern day guns being converted to run on gas.

 

Sorry to say it, but the logic is flawed, you cannot simply do a days skirmish, with the amount of ammunition being flung about, without the gas going dead.

 

Aside, i don't want to lug a gas bottle around with me, complicated stuff, and i might as well wear a scuba divers gear, just to compliment the bottle.

 

Honestly running an external tank is no problem. Cambelbak + microline hose. You don't even feel it on you.

[snorkelman]

Honestly running an external tank is no problem. Cambelbak + microline hose. You don't even feel it on you.

 

 

you know that I know that but people take one look at it and simply wont beleive you. If a big clattering bolt and loads of simulated 'recoil' cant persuade them to give it a try Im pretty sure something that has next to zilch recoil or bolt travel and just offers some 'adjustable power' and electronic doodahs for ROF and burst isnt going to persuade them either

[Night_raven]

I'll happily try a gas system, just prove it to me, that it'll hold well in a days skirmish, and that i can quickly adjust fps an so forth.

 

Also, consistency in colder weather.

 

Edit: Concealability, whether i can hide it on the kit i'm wearing, and whether i can hide the hose an so forth.

 

 

[M0ldyM!LK]

External rigs may not bother you, but the majority of airsofters tend to disagree.

 

 

I highly doubt manufacturers would consider retooling everything for a system not even adapted for use in airsoft -- much less a system similar to what they've already turned away from a decade ago for both legal and practicality reasons.

[AGuy]

The only problem I have with me classics is when systems the barrel gets misaligned so the bb's dont feed properly, it only goes single till I fix it. To fix it however (on my M635) I just take out toe two body pins and pull back the charging handle. Thats it, from there I can position the barrel, springs, what have you. That is one major plus, the disasembly. And yes there is noticable recoil and most classics are much more solid than these modern day guns. Dont get me wrong, I see the positives of AEG's and I like to keep one or two for ops and what not when I can't neccessarily trust my classic to work all day long. I like to use my classics in CQB and on my once a week games.

[my_plague_666]

wait for the escort blowback drop in mechbox. its the solution to all of the problems of both AEGs and classics (minus the external rig, but i can live with that).

 

as for cold weather consistancy, use HPA.

[AGuy]

The only problem I have with me classics is when systems the barrel gets misaligned so the bb's dont feed properly, it only goes single till I fix it. To fix it however (on my M635) I just take out toe two body pins and pull back the charging handle. Thats it, from there I can position the barrel, springs, what have you. That is one major plus, the disasembly. And yes there is noticable recoil and most classics are much more solid than these modern day guns. Dont get me wrong, I see the positives of AEG's and I like to keep one or two for ops and what not when I can't neccessarily trust my classic to work all day long. I like to use my classics in CQB and on my once a week games.

The escort design won't be released until around mid 2008 but coming from escort, I would expect it to be aroun 2009. You wont get the same feeling as a normal classic such as recoil but i do think that is the best possible route for people that want to experience/test the system. Dont go with the HFC/ Tanio koba design, it just wont work

[snorkelman]

And yes there is noticable recoil and most classics are much more solid than these modern day guns.

 

Externally Ive always found most classis to be godawful cheap nasty plastic POS - JAC Limiteds and Exports, the Bar and Thompsopn etc, the escort system guns and a few others being noticeable exceptions to the rule. Standard JACs are made from dreadful quality plastics as are MMC guns, asahi sterlings and MP40s The sort of materials used back then for plastic guns you just wouldnt see in anything bar cheap springers these days. Stick with selected models and yep you can get some damn nice classics go outside of those and you can get some real turds.

 

 

wait for the escort blowback drop in mechbox. its the solution to all of the problems of both AEGs and classics (minus the external rig, but i can live with that).

 

lol lets wait till its actually out tried and tested before giving it the title of 'solution to all' Proof of the pudding is in the eating and all that..

[mcnuggets]

need to avoid patent infringements,

 

Very true. However I'm sure there are some designs that have expired or a new patent can be acquired simply by fitting it to fire airsoft BB's.

 

need to adapt their manufacturing to a completly different technology from that they're familiar with

need for ginormous volumes of sales to justify develepment and bring the cost down.

 

You're right here. AS manufacturers aren't going to jump on board immediately. However I think a product might be successful in the market for high end AS products. Something similar to the computer market where a new technology is typically introduced only on the more expensive products and eventually trickles down to the lower priced products.

 

Then take your controllable power levels On a marker that fires at 13 joules theres plenty of scope for adjustment hell dropit all the way down to 6 joules if you fancy. Is there really a market for adjustable power airsoft guns when Japanese law dictates the maximum power can only be 1 juoule and thus all your adjustment of power is down the way?

 

I'll agree that adjustable velocity wouldn't be much of an advantage in countries with strict velocity limits. However a even a velocity range of 200 to 300 fps still has some usefulness. And in more liberal countries where the government allows higher velocities these advantages increase still.

 

need to regulate the CO2/HPa being used

 

For external use it would be easy. Many, many different HPA and CO2 regulators to choose from for paintball. Internal would be a problem.

 

need to squeeze that regulated system and the storage for the proppelant onto the gun or face the same issue every classic has of widespread bias against external rigs

 

An external setup detracts from realism and a competitive internal setup is hard to implement. I think most people who play AS won't have a strict preference for realism and would be willing to make some tradeoffs for an overall better system.

 

Even go outside Japan and assume your talking about a country where sites regularly allow say 450 FPS without minimum engagement distances. Once again that is going to have to be the max power of the guns - otherwise theres the temptation for some clutz to decide to adjust his to 700 FPS cos hes awarded himself an exception to the rules.

 

PB has a similar problem yet they do fine. There aren't multiple paintball fatalities a year at tourney's due to hot guns. A motion to chronograph a suspected hot gun, like what they do in PB, is all that is needed.

 

Does anyone really want an airsoft gun that can be adjusted down from 320 FPS to 180 or down from 450 to 225?

 

I do and I'm sure many others do as well. Have one gun to compete in springer wars, indoor, outdoor and plinking. Undeniable advantages to adjustable velocity.

 

Not everywhere has access to HPA or CO2 as power sources - some countries have laws in place that make one or both very difficult to obtain That leaves you with green or 134a and neither of those is suited to small 'on gun' internal reservoirs.

 

Generally not a problem in the states. Europe, I'm sure, wouldn't be terribly difficult either. Not sure about Asia. A definite downside, I'll agree with you here.

The market for these guns is limited to non-Asian countries probably.

 

Theres a reason why theres little spares for classics - they arent popular in the mass market to justify mainstream manufacturers making parts for them They arent popular due to widespread bias against external rigs.

 

If there's so little demand then why is the price so high for Japanese classics? Take a look at the trade forum on CA.net. Some of these guns command a hefty price.

[M0ldyM!LK]

Because there's hardly any left ?

[Night_raven]

Classic Airsoft guns are like Antiques,.... the rarer, the more expensive!

 

 

 

[snorkelman]

If there's so little demand then why is the price so high for Japanese classics? Take a look at the trade forum on CA.net. Some of these guns command a hefty price.

 

supply and demand amongst a few folks chasing particular models inside the states Even then the prices are well over cooked

 

I picked up a (15 year old) brand new in the box JAC XM177E2 Limited worked over by sherrif with LRB and teeny barrel weigth inside the flash hider for under 120 bucks Likewise couple more minty fresh JAC limiteds with everything included (right down to the original shrink wraped can of flon and certificate etc) for under 100 bucks a piece. An export M16A2 with burst mode again as fresh as day it was made with every bit n bobble still in the box 110 dollars. 9 mags mix of VN shorties and standard size (all the decent type not the one piecers) 80 bucks. Other than a few models that sell for high prices amongst japanese buyers, most of this stuff wasnt expensive to hoover up from Japan.

 

90 bucks

 

110 bucks

 

100 bucks

 

100 bucks

 

120 bucks

[mcnuggets]

Meaning they're more in demand. However even recent entrants have a high price. An SP MP5 goes for about ~$550. I think the price is due to higher stateside demand and a smaller foreign supply (due to internal regulations from the Japanese and from the Japanese not recognizing AS markets outside of Japan).

[snorkelman]

just cos a couple of hundred folks in a particular country are willing to pay over the odds for what they perceive as raresoft stuff doesnt a mass market for high price guns make..

 

the current production escort MP5s are a different proposition - a small firm still in business trying to make a decent income from what is still a very small market

 

honestly I dont see a widespread demand being evidenced by high prices for particular old guns or a specialised supplier turning out small numbers of units

 

As an alternative example I've dealt in classic scooters for years Amongst those is a hardcore market willing to pay 2000 to 3000 dollars for just a rusted bare frame of a lambretta thats exactly the same bare frame as one that would sell for a couple of hundred bucks ...in every single way except for 2 digits stamped on it that meant it was originally fitted to a particular model.

 

Doesn't mean theres any mass interest amongst the scooter buying public for a forty year old design. Just that in these days of the interweb you can always be sure of finding a few folks with an obsession and more money than sense.