Copying Paintball Designs

[M0ldyM!LK]

Meaning they're more in demand. However even recent entrants have a high price. An SP MP5 goes for about ~$550. I think the price is due to higher stateside demand and a smaller foreign supply (due to internal regulations from the Japanese and from the Japanese not recognizing AS markets outside of Japan).

 

 

Not really...

 

It's like the US machine gun market. Since the '86 ban, no more could be manufactured for civilian purchase. What was on the market was bought up, effectively drying it up. The cheapest civilian MGs start at 3-5k (Mac10s and such) and sky rocket from there, all the way into hundreds of thousands. "Good" MGs don't cost $120,000 because everyone wants one (they aren't bought too often), it's because they don't exist in any great numbers.

[Jaager]

An external setup detracts from realism and a competitive internal setup is hard to implement. I think most people who play AS won't have a strict preference for realism and would be willing to make some tradeoffs for an overall better system.

 

 

sorry but go have a look in the pictures section, have a look in threads like pics of your gear, Army SF and SOF, Multicam Pics, Russian pics, AK pics, Armalite pics, Marine Pics. Most airsofters have a strict preference for realism, why would someone spend over $1000 on gear, to look exactly like the USMC FR operator or hundreds of dollas to look like a VDV trooper, if they are going to be lugging around an external rig, if it detracts from realism, its not going to be as popular with airsofters, because airsoft is more than just a sport like paintball, in paintball you have teams wearing brightly coloured uniforms trying to take objectives, in airsoft, you have people dressed in military gear, playing out military/LE scenario's. Granted in paintball you have scenario players and in airsoft you have "paintsofters" or those who prefer paintball style play, but they are the minority for each sport.

 

you also try to argue that with a regulatory system you can have one gun to do the job of all types, this means the gun in question wont be an acurate replica of a firearm in that role which again detracts from realism and makes it a pointless exercise.

[AGuy]

there's an MGC on ebay for only like 90$

[ssddismymotto]

sorry but go have a look in the pictures section, have a look in threads like pics of your gear, Army SF and SOF, Multicam Pics, Russian pics, AK pics, Armalite pics, Marine Pics. Most airsofters have a strict preference for realism, why would someone spend over $1000 on gear, to look exactly like the USMC FR operator or hundreds of dollas to look like a VDV trooper, if they are going to be lugging around an external rig, if it detracts from realism, its not going to be as popular with airsofters, because airsoft is more than just a sport like paintball, in paintball you have teams wearing brightly coloured uniforms trying to take objectives, in airsoft, you have people dressed in military gear, playing out military/LE scenario's. Granted in paintball you have scenario players and in airsoft you have "paintsofters" or those who prefer paintball style play, but they are the minority for each sport.

 

you also try to argue that with a regulatory system you can have one gun to do the job of all types, this means the gun in question wont be an acurate replica of a firearm in that role which again detracts from realism and makes it a pointless exercise.

i disagree. I play national paintball tournaments (US circuit called PSP),as well as airsoft, so im pretty familiar with the technology of both. Take a single tube tournament marker, aka the shocker, shrink it down to 6mm, and that bolt system is small enough to fit in the receiver of a whole lot of different guns. Also, RAP4 (a company geared towards scenario paintball) has made an air system that is concealed in a stock, and is "charged" from a regular HPA tank.

 

It could be done, people just need to wrap their heads around it.

[Jaager]

but why??? whats wrong with the AEG gearbox system, gas systems were rejected for primary airsoft use ages ago (except in pistols and some sniper rifles).

 

why should we borrow from paintball, this is a completely different sport.

 

havn't you heard the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

 

IRC RAP4 was proven to be ######!

[AGuy]

but why??? whats wrong with the AEG gearbox system, gas systems were rejected for primary airsoft use ages ago (except in pistols and some sniper rifles).

 

why should we borrow from paintball, this is a completely different sport.

 

havn't you heard the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

 

IRC RAP4 was proven to be ######!

 

 

It's just like classic cars, who wouldn't want a nice convertable mustang. Then why did they change? I would have to assume practicality, such as MPG, features, noise, etc. I think the same goes for the classic gun, nothing was really wrong with them but I think the AEG's just became a little more practical. This may appeal to some but classics are worth giving a try.

[ssddismymotto]

but why??? whats wrong with the AEG gearbox system, gas systems were rejected for primary airsoft use ages ago (except in pistols and some sniper rifles).

 

why should we borrow from paintball, this is a completely different sport.

 

havn't you heard the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

 

IRC RAP4 was proven to be ######!

 

point taken, ive never used a RAP4, as i dont play woodsball.

[tunabreath]

At least in terms of Escorts, I do think the realism factor of blowback and gas report vs overclocked sewing machine does outweigh an easily hidden hose and a tank that fits snugly in a hydration carrier.

 

*whoa, a lot of people posted before I got mine up... Aimed at post #27.

[HannibalSmith77]

but why??? whats wrong with the AEG gearbox system, gas systems were rejected for primary airsoft use ages ago (except in pistols and some sniper rifles).

 

why should we borrow from paintball, this is a completely different sport.

 

havn't you heard the phrase "if it ain't broke don't fix it!"

 

IRC RAP4 was proven to be ######!

 

 

point taken, ive never used a RAP4, as i dont play woodsball.

I owned a RAP and it was total *beep*.

 

I don't guess I understand the controversy here...if you want gas type weapons use a classic or paintball. If not, use an AEG. It pretty much comes down to preference. That's why I don't understand this debate really. If you want to put paintball internals or the same technology into your AEG, then go ahead. It might end up being the beez kneez, but I think it's unlikely as it does seem to have been done before.

[CobaltSky]

The controvosy here is that while paintball has some very advanced gas system technology, even modern gas powered AS guns still use the archaic system of the classics. The only reason PB mechanisms don't fit into a normal sized firearm shell is because they are firing 0.63 calibre rounds instead of 6mm BBs.

 

Considering the amount of unused space a lot of people have on their plate carriers or tac vests its not that hard to find space for a bottle and the remote lines aren't particuarly intrusive.

 

Using HPA instead of CO2 nearly negates the problems of cold weather and having some kind of locking mechanism on the regulator would allow site owners to make sure the velocity reamins at the level it was chronoed at. Classics already have adjustible velocity and there are very few problems reported with them (I haven't heard any).

 

The solenoid technology in modern markers is very reliable more so that an AS mechbox, which do wear out over time regardless of the components used.

 

I think there could be a market for both if it wasn't for the already ingrained prejudices against gas systems. Paintball is seen as an enemy of airsoft for the most part and lots of people don't like to see any association with it. I understand that there are downsides to gas but there are also downsides to AEGs. Still, it would be better if you can take your pick between the easy to recharge batteries and the firing satisfaction of gas. More choice is always better for the consumer and there is clearly a market for it. Of course one of the major problems is that the first company to introduce such a system has to make back a lot of costs from research, so the early adopters will pay a premium. Then there is the problem that the design will be patented so there won't be the intercompatibility we see with today's AEGs. China would be the best place for such a system to come out of due to their questionable laws regarding intellectual property, but the Chinese manufactures have no motivation to innovate while they can just copy Japan's designs. If it was designed in a western country then copies wouldn't be allowed into the biggest markets creating a barrier to sales.

 

Ideally, someone would make an open design but that is even more unlikely to happen.

[mcnuggets]

supply and demand amongst a few folks chasing particular models inside the states Even then the prices are well over cooked

 

I picked up a (15 year old) brand new in the box JAC XM177E2 Limited worked over by sherrif with LRB and teeny barrel weigth inside the flash hider for under 120 bucks Likewise couple more minty fresh JAC limiteds with everything included (right down to the original shrink wraped can of flon and certificate etc) for under 100 bucks a piece. An export M16A2 with burst mode again as fresh as day it was made with every bit n bobble still in the box 110 dollars. 9 mags mix of VN shorties and standard size (all the decent type not the one piecers) 80 bucks. Other than a few models that sell for high prices amongst japanese buyers, most of this stuff wasnt expensive to hoover up from Japan.

 

If these prices are from Japanese auctions they may be skewed from government regulation. On the eBay auctions here in the states JAC's typically go for around ~$250. Demand for these guns within Japan are lower due to the government regulating velocity as well as regulating access to CO2 and HPA. Demand outside of Japan is higher due to user being able to take advantage of some features (like higher velocity) and easier access to CO2 and HPA. IMHO anyway but it sounds accurate.

[mcnuggets]

sorry but go have a look in the pictures section, have a look in threads like pics of your gear, Army SF and SOF, Multicam Pics, Russian pics, AK pics, Armalite pics, Marine Pics. Most airsofters have a strict preference for realism, why would someone spend over $1000 on gear, to look exactly like the USMC FR operator or hundreds of dollas to look like a VDV trooper, if they are going to be lugging around an external rig, if it detracts from realism, its not going to be as popular with airsofters, because airsoft is more than just a sport like paintball, in paintball you have teams wearing brightly coloured uniforms trying to take objectives, in airsoft, you have people dressed in military gear, playing out military/LE scenario's. Granted in paintball you have scenario players and in airsoft you have "paintsofters" or those who prefer paintball style play, but they are the minority for each sport.

 

you also try to argue that with a regulatory system you can have one gun to do the job of all types, this means the gun in question wont be an acurate replica of a firearm in that role which again detracts from realism and makes it a pointless exercise.

 

I would disagree. Take the woodsball crowd in the states for instance. They get all decked out in the usual gear and carry around paintball guns that are far from realistic (even though they try to be). Or paintsofters here in the airsoft community who consider realism to be a secondary importance. Even if you do value realism there's realistic aspects of gas guns that may outweigh the unrealistic remote line. Immediate trigger response. Sound report. If it's a solenoid system then a realistic ROF can be programmed in.

 

Also a do-all gun, while not completely realistic, is undeniably useful.

[mcnuggets]

Ideally, someone would make an open design but that is even more unlikely to happen.

 

This might be more feasible than you think. Hobbyist are going to be the ones who will likely take the endeavor so they might reveal their findings.

[snorkelman]

what possible reason would a mainstream manufacturer have to move over from AEG designs to gas (which was the OPs suggestion)

 

Power? nopes plenty of spare potential in the AEG box. Its already limited by the need to be able to shoot other people safely with them (and in some countries by legality of max power levels) than any design ceiling imposed by the mechbox itself

 

ROF? again more than ample potential there in an AEG box no need to go over to gas for that.

 

Range and accuracy - not going to squeeze a lot more out those either ..unless we're taking a step back in time to LRB equipped guns with BV mechs and reciprocating barrels. In which case we could squeeze a bit more range

 

Cost of manufacture - versus some potmetalonium and some gearcogs n plastic bits that dont require mega tolerances? urm nopes

 

Burst modes? doable on AEGs already in either mechanical or electronic form. The expense is what prevents it, so why go to a PB design when the expense will be just as high to implement those features.

 

Noise? Yep damn sitght more pleasant than an AEG mechbox

 

Felt recoil? from a scaled down paintball mechanism thats to run around 100 PSI with all its components resized to fit inside the space currently occupied by an AEG mechbox again I dont see that flying by adopting a paintball design. Particularly if we're talking about solenoid triggered valves which offer as much of a user feedback experience as watching paint dry.

 

Bolt travel - as above from a scaled down paintball mech shoehorned in there? Again nopes three centimetres of bolt travel at best if your adapting a current PB design down to that size. Heehaw if you're going solenoid triggered valve route

 

 

The only people interested in a gas based AEG replacement with next to zero recoil and bolt travel are likely to be the same folks who currently buy BV system classics The mass market just wont wear it.

 

To capture a chunk of that you need to bring something more to the party than what current AEGs offer - simulated recoil, noise and bolt travel. A hell of a lot of simulated recoil noise and bolt travel if you want them to accept it and consider an external rig at same time. Ideally it needs an internally housed power source for no reason other than to get them onboard make it convertable to external useage by all means but fail to break the adequate internal storage conundrum and you arent going to tempt many of them in to start with.

 

Even then its only ever going to be a niche market far more suited to a drop in conversion for a variety of existing AEG designs than a whole gun in its own right. If that took off in mega numbers then full gun manufacturers might be tempted to adopt it but thats asking a lot.

 

From a 'full gun' manufacs POV I see them sticking with AEGs - at most revisiting gas in mag rocket valve designs they're familiar with from current generation of gas blowback pistols and SMGs which have the advantages in manufacs eyes of being easily understood and cheap as chips to manufac

[mcnuggets]

How about life expectancy?

[AGuy]

How about life expectancy?

powned

[snorkelman]

what about it? AEG components are now dirt cheap and a large chunk of the market these days knows how to self service them or at least knows a man who does. At general field limits they arent particularly stressed in any case.

 

The fact X only needs three orings, a needle valve and a fresh hop rubber is academic if they cant be bought for love nor money locally and need ordered in from halfway around the globe while AEG Y might need half a mechbox worth of stuff? Well thats not the end of the world if you can pick up from the shop a couple of towns away.

 

really start pushing the power levels and I'm sure you'll cheerfully work your way thru a *beep* load of AEG components but how large a market share is that? and what isnt already available amongst older classic guns to service that market already.

 

Ive never considered 'life expectancy' highly when it came to looking at the gas classics Ive bought At most its a side benefit/compensation rather than a selling point

 

In anycase as far as a manufacturer goes wheres the incentive to build an everlasting gun

[mcnuggets]

what possible reason would a mainstream manufacturer have to move over from AEG designs to gas (which was the OPs suggestion)

 

I'm not recommending airsoft manufactuers move over wholesale to gas system. As with any new technology incremental steps are taken. At first a new technology will be higher priced in part due to the lower number of units being produced. If the technology is successful then more units are produced and the price lowers in part through economies of scale. Take for instance disc brakes replacing V-brakes on mountain bikes. At first they were very expensive and were only reserved for large budget consumers. However as more and more people adopted them (as well as patents for them expiring) the price lowered to the point where they come stock on most mountain bikes. I see nothing different in this scenario.

 

Power? nopes plenty of spare potential in the AEG box. Its already limited by the need to be able to shoot other people safely with them (and in some countries by legality of max power levels) than any design ceiling imposed by the mechbox itself

 

For the US market stock AEG velocities usually aren't enough. And increasing that velocity lowers the lifespan of the internal components. But I agree with you that in most countries the stock velocity suffices (probably due to regulation).

 

ROF? again more than ample potential there in an AEG box no need to go over to gas for that.

 

Increasing ROF also puts strain on internal components. The range of ROF as well as the potential to adjust is greater in gas guns.

 

Range and accuracy - not going to squeeze a lot more out those either ..unless we're taking a step back in time to LRB equipped guns with BV mechs and reciprocating barrels. In which case we could squeeze a bit more range

 

I agree.

 

Cost of manufacture - versus some potmetalonium and some gearcogs n plastic bits that dont require mega tolerances? urm nopes.

 

It may be higher. Although it probably is I wouldn't think the difference would be significant. You also have to consider there are fewer parts and lower labor charges needed to assemble the unit.

 

Felt recoil

 

Bolt travel

 

I agree that a PB based design would have comprable recoil to an AEG and an insignificant amount of recoil. Although I'm it can be designed to change this. And having these features are more feasible on a gas platform compared to an AEG since there's a greater amount of energy available.

 

 

The only people interested in a gas based AEG replacement with next to zero recoil and bolt travel are likely to be the same folks who currently buy BV system classics The mass market just wont wear it.

 

I think that the market for BV classics are different from this potential market. Classics come with their own drawbacks that they don't share with this PB based gun (lack of spare parts, lack of accessories, lack of magazines, no hopup) that turn away many potential consumers. I'd imagine this market to be greater, especially in the US.

 

To capture a chunk of that you need to bring something more to the party than what current AEGs offer - simulated recoil, noise and bolt travel. A hell of a lot of simulated recoil noise and bolt travel if you want them to accept it and consider an external rig at same time. Ideally it needs an internally housed power source for no reason other than to get them onboard make it convertable to external useage by all means but fail to break the adequate internal storage conundrum and you arent going to tempt many of them in to start with.

 

What's being offered is versatility and longevity.

 

Even then its only ever going to be a niche market far more suited to a drop in conversion for a variety of existing AEG designs than a whole gun in its own right. If that took off in mega numbers then full gun manufacturers might be tempted to adopt it but thats asking a lot.

 

I agree. It should be worked into the dimensions of an AEG gearbox first.

[AGuy]

So what are the drawbacks of the classics?

[MDK_Marshal]

*Sigh* Ah, McNuggets, what would we do without you, eh? Certainly there'd be a couple less blithely ignorant topics in project suggestions. Anyway, onto my post/rant...

 

Edit - thought I should add (shortly after posting) that this IS a long rant - and McNuggets, if you want to argue anyhting i say (and i daresay you probably will), feel free to do so. But do so sensibly and without spouting mis-informed junk, mmkay?

 

*Rant begins*

 

You seem so keen on shoehorning paintball designs into airsoft. You seem to blithely ignore the fact that gas powered systems have, by and large, been utterley disregarded by the airsoft industry. The ONLY products you can easily get in gas are pistols, the odd sniper rifle, and shotguns. there are some other niche products, yes, but that's what they are. Niche. small market, not a huge ammount of cash.

 

Gas designs were almost universally renounced by the airsoft industry for practicality, ease of repair, ease of manufacture, economics of scale, and a million and one other reasons. Including player preference. By and large, the generaly (airsofting) public DO NOT WANT paintball designs shoved into an AEG body.

 

Now, to answer the self-pondering, rhetorical questions in your original post...

 

 

 

Question one: "Why is airsoft reinventing the wheel everytime they come up with a new air system?"

 

How many air systems can you name? Or describe, to be simpler. Excluding gas guns, there's two. The piston design, and the bellows design used by TOP. Both are, fundamentally, the same, and have stayed the same since the birth of the marui FAMAS and the version 1 gearbox donkey's years ago. Modern Gas guns all run off one of two main systems - The Marui GBB style designs made by Tanio koba (this and variations on its theme are the powerhouses behind almost all gas pistols) and the WA Manga design, which is still fundamentally pretty similar, IIRC. There is no reinventing the wheel. there are no new designs, there are small adjustments and tweaks to certain parts of the systems, but, by and large, it's the same as it ever was.

 

Motor turns gears, gears move piston. That's it, when it comes right down to it. The design has stayed the same for at least 15 years, give or take, if memory serves me. Your first "question" is ######, and shows you know bugger all about how AEG systems have evolved (or, more accurately, not) over the years.

 

EDIT - Oh, forgot to add. The systema PTW System is, I suppose, SLIGHTLY different to a conventional AEG, as is the KSC HK33, I believe it is. However, the wheel was not re-invented, as these are unique, niche products that aren't trying to change the world. Let it not be said that I don't try to be thorough...

 

Question two: "Why is airsoft relying on an overly complicated system of gears and motors to fire BB's? "

 

If Five gears (counting the pinion and piston) and a motor is complex to you, then, well, I'm impressed. Not many people can be unable to grasp such a simple system. The way it works is thus - you have a motor. It pulls a spring-loaded piston back, then releases it. The piston goes forwards, compressing air as it goes, which pushes a BB out at high speed.

 

Tell me, how is that NOT simple? Seriously. It's as simple as it gets. the ONLY thing you need is an electrical power source and it'll run from now 'till eternity, or as close as you can get with parts made to a (relatively) tiny budget.

 

The remainder of the parts in the gearbox (The three main gears, anti-reversal latch, etc) all serve VERY simple and easy to understand functions. There is no superflous little flange here or there to support an elegant but pointless system of things that don't need to be there. There is NOTHING in a gearbox that doesn't need to be there. It's as simple as you're gona get.

 

External air may well simplify the internal workings a TAD, but not that much. Where's the simplicity of setting up an external air hose, checking for air leaks, making sure a regulator is set to the correct pressure, checking a bottle of compressed gas is full, making sure seals are good, keeping o-rings lubed and fresh, and a hundred other things to ensure reliable operation of a gas gun, when compared to simply plugging in a battery and pulling the trigger?

 

Plug and play. Three little words that spell "simple..."

 

 

Question three: "Why aren't the Japanese doing what they do best; copying American designs and making them better? "

 

Oh yes, this is what the japanese do best. Miniature electronics, fuel efficient cars, unique culture and food, personal honour systems ingrained in everyday life, technology outstripping the rest of the world - yeah, everything good in japan is copied from america. Right. take a look at the world before making ill-informed decisions and spouting them like gospel truths.

 

 

"Question" Four: "Think about what is possible under a paintball-like design. Adjustable ROF. Adjustable velocity. Efficient use of gas."

 

It's not realy a question, hence the quote marks. But I'm gona treat it as such anyway for these purposes.

 

Adjustable ROF - Beefy Pot/Variable resistor (your choice of terminology) in line with the motor. Or, if you want something to allow a fast trigger response and still a low ROF, I'm sure I could do some research and whip you up something to start and stop the motor so many times per second. MOSFET system with active braking should sort out most of the problems with it, and the whole thing could probably be run simply via a 555 Timer chip. Set the time constant with a Pot and away you go.

 

Adjustable FPS - Change the spring. it's not superglued to the gearbox, you know. Want it changed on the fly? get a gearbox with a fast spring change feature, there's quite a few on the market nowadays. Prowin/PGC CNC Gearboxes for version 2 guns, every Star gun in existence, a hell of a lot of support weapons, ICS M4's, and so on and so on.

 

Efficient use of gas - Hah. AEG systems use atmospheric gas as a propelant, which is free of charge, is compressed in situ, with no need for storage,in or near the gun, can be re-used as soon as air currents take it back into the gun, abnd is all used to propel the projectile (IE, none used to cycle the bolt and so forth). That's prety much the DEFINITION of efficient gas use. When somebody invents a Paintball marker that can compress air in situ in a fraction of a second ready to fire a shot, let me know, and I may well change this. 'till then, AEG's Stay more gas eficient than ANY paintball design.

 

 

 

I've also spotted you talking about the reliability and lifetime of the AEG system. Such as, how many shots will a piston last at 400fps, how long will gears last, etc, etc. In, say, a stock marui, then yes, you have every right to say that it's unreliable. At those power levels.

 

Marui's are designed to conform to japan's power laws - once you go too far over those laws, they are designed to fail, catastrophically. know what that means? it means that you are expecting components to perform well beyond the point where they are designed to fail. It's like expecting a 15 amp fuse to hold out when you put 20 amps of current through it. it's simply stupid.

 

It is, in fact, remarkably easy to build a gearbox that can perform at, say, 500fps and 20rps for many thousands of rounds - given enough cash to build such a box, I'd wager that I could easily build a box running at those specs to last for at least 150,000 rounds.

 

Problem is, airsoft components are not designed to do such things. There are, of course, exceptions - but most parts are still designed to comply with japanese laws, or, at the very least, to be somewhere near them.

 

Magnum motor, Titanuim gearset, High-Quality Aluminuim CNC gearbox, Strong lightweight piston (Carbon composite, maybe?), and a beefy spring and you're pretty much good to go.

 

However, it comes down to why good old America is oh so great - economy. It aaaaalll comes down to money. Nobody wants to buy a £200 set of titanium gears. Nobody wants to buy a piston made of Ultra-Composite Number 17 that costs more than the gun you're putting it in. The parts currently on the market are designed to a certain specification, and somewhere along the line, that specification is set down by doing a good old fashioned Cost/benefit analysis.

 

Parts are designed with tolerances. Parts are designed to fail. Parts are designed with an expected lifespan. This isn't jsut for airsoft, this is for the whole damned WORLD. Everything breaks sooner or later, and if you push parts beyond their intended specifications, you bet your *albartroth* it'll be sooner.

 

 

 

To be frank, from where I'm sitting, you're talking a lot of good old fashioned ######. However, I won't have it said that I'm not a fair and honest guy. if you can shoehorn a paintball design into the same externals as an AEG, and have it firing as reliable and performing as well, and for a similar cost (once upscaled to mass production, of course), then I'll concede that you do, in fact, have a point, and we should all switch to the incredibly awesome paintball designs. At this point, though, you'll have likely patented such a system and have caused the second revolution in the airsoft world, and have enough money that what people like me say won't matter one teensy bit.

 

If you can't achieve such a thing, then you'll stop making these god-awful threads where you wonder to yourself why airsoft manufacturers don't use designs they abandoned almost two decades ago while every technically minded airsofter reading attempts to perform brain surgery on themselves using the nearest available wall.

 

What do you say? We got a deal here?

 

 

 

 

PS. Appogies for the huge rant, but, eh. I like to be thorough.

[snorkelman]

if you want to make a modern day gas rifle without relying on in the mag gas storage then it needs

 

blowback absolutely postively required and the more the better - not something your going to get miniaturizing PB maker systems For all its faults you're far better off modifying the basic escort system, tying it to an AEG nozzle and hop system at the front but retaining the heavy moving bolt that runs on an airshaft. Compared with hammer tripped valves etc the impacts are minimal and you'll get away with machined brass

 

bolt travel - the longer the travel the better

 

Output velocity if you want to scale it in line with input pressure by all means do so but have an effective means of limiting the scale available to the end user of an assembled gun by requiring a sub assembly swapped out (250 to 350, 300 to 450 etc).

 

You might consider someones ability to dial in excessively high power levels one that can be dealt with by spot checks and calls for re-chronoing but thats scant consolation to someone thats been on receiving end in the meantime, and is also a potential legal issue for the site (if that player decides to pursue the matter of another player being allowed on the field with a gun with such wideranging capabilities over and above the site limit).

 

electronic trigger groups and burst capabilities again by all means do them but at very least provide a purely mechanical semi/auto system for those that dont need the expense of them

 

ie consider a modularized system where the blowback unit is seperate from the trigger group unit. You can then activate/disengage the valve mechanically when its fitted to a mechanical lower or use a solenoid with a control circuit to do so that trips after x rounds and only resets on trigger release when fitted to an electronic lower. Mechanical trigger group being far cheaper of the two and the electronic group being an optional lower. Again escort style systems would lend themself to that - just use the moving bolt to trip a microswitch each time the bolt passes over it to feed a counting circuit then pull power to the solenoid once appropriate count is reached.

 

Multiple points of airfeed into the system one for pistol grip based external feed and one for facilitating internal feed (with whichever one isnt in use sealed)

 

a decent internal feed system eg buffer tube, stock or upper receiver mounted that can accept a half decent quantity of CO2 Using the escort system as a baseline several ounces of CO2 is good for 500 to 700 rounds so consider refilable cartridges capable of holding that amount as a minimum - that can be refilled from a 20oz conventional bottle and allow the player to carry one or two with them while leaving the bottle and rig at safezone. Of any use to someone whos willing to carry an extrnal rig? absolutely not but no need to restrict your potential user base to that size.

 

Provide the folks looking for internal solutions with something to buy cos chances are they'll outweigh those looking for an external setup several times over and that'll help bring the costs per unit down for everyone.

 

Don't want to go down that route dont see a need for blowback etc? reinvent the old JAC BV system for use in an AEG body, ditch the ratchet fire system they use in favour of some sort of solenoid based electronic one, rework all the components in modern materials and produce better mags. You'll then have all the spares any other 'new' system would offer. Just dont expect much interest from the majority of gas users looking for blowback rather than unskirmishable levels of power

[freq88]

To hell with what everyone else said. GO DO IT!! If you fail then everyone was right and if you succeed you can charge everyone who told you otherwise twice as much.

[The Chef]

Now..... most people will know I am a big fan of gas rifles of the sniper type purely from a noise and ease of use angle.

 

BUT.... compared to a spring or AEG they just dont cut the mustard in terms of stability (in terms of fps ergo accuracy), which in a sniper rifle is THE most important aspect.

 

Now before you go bleating about CO2/HPA etc as opposed to green gas, I shall point out that I have a Palmers Pursuit CO2 regulator and a small CO2 caplet adapter.

And its still pants. I cant get it to settle down at a suitable fps that makes it compare to a spring.

 

And before you go... 'large bottle'.... I want the system to be self contained or easily removeable. I drop my rifles regularly (not literally) to switch to pistols for close work and because of this, I need the system to be contained on the gun. I have tried QD hoses, but havent found a self sealing one that doesnt p!ss gas everywhere when you undo it.

 

I like the idea of gas, but its impractical.

 

Which seems to be the general consensus on this thread.

 

McNuggets, you love it, and nothing people say on here will change that view. But peoples views are contrary to your own, respect that, and let it lie.

[greg]

I've said it before; if only Honda/Makita/Shimano made softers.

 

I welcome the 'XTR Hosematic LXT Type R'. Guaranteed for 500,000 shots or 3 years (subject to annual servicing). Adjustable, reliable everything with a 'charge in 20 min' last 10,000 rnd power cell.

 

For these manufactures this would be easy!!

 

 

Greg.

[my_plague_666]

I think that the market for BV classics are different from this potential market. Classics come with their own drawbacks that they don't share with this PB based gun (lack of spare parts, lack of accessories, lack of magazines, no hopup) that turn away many potential consumers. I'd imagine this market to be greater, especially in the US.

 

but the chances of classics becoming mainstream are probably greater due to the recoil, therefore if classics became mainstream there would be parts. as far as i can see with your idea there would be no bigger market than classics, possibly even smaller due to not having the recoil (classic's main selling point), i highly doubt people will care about the idea. lets face it, if i was going to worry about gas and external rigs i would want blowback to show for it, why the hell would people go to theose extra lengths for what is essentially longer lasting AEG performance, and AEG parts arent expensive are they?

 

it wont happen, there are AEGs and classics, escort is bringing out their mechbox to bridge the gap, what more do you want. it wont happen, hardly anyone on here seems to be interested in it. if you want to make it go ahead but it wont happen on a comercial scale, just face it and leave it.