Copying Paintball Designs

[snorkelman]

90 percent of classics have no recoil Escorts and a few other yes but the rest are pretty much zero blowback or felt recoil. Thats why Id consider these paintball derived designs to simply attract the same sort of folks who already use next to zero recoil classics because the selling points of one (adjustable and high FPS) directly matches one of the selling points of the other.

 

it isnt even a question of wether there is a use/maret for them Its a question of wether a mainstream AEG manufacturer would bother adding them to their line up (and by claiming they're superior to AEGs the OPs original question does imply a move over to these not just a give making one a try see if it sells a few)

[AGuy]

Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble,

 

Classics ftw, they have recoil, reliability, WORK IN RAIN AND WATER, and have a cool factor (Everyone always looks at you when you field one), ease of disassembly; but aeg's also have their positives such as consistency and no hose, but classics work for me (Although I like to keep a few aeg's handy)

[ianhaz]

Ive used my AEGS in rain before, no problem. Extreemly heavy rain at that.

[snorkelman]

Depends on the classic - other than the escorts I cant think of many with appreciable recoil straight out the box - add some barrel weights onto a JAC and yep you've got some sensation but those arent standard and hardly escort levels.

 

Stock JAC limited with just the bleed valve plugged etc to get it clocking 450 FPS? - been there done that. Lovely noise bugger all recoil (ease of dissasembly yeps )

 

once again the issue is wether a manufacturer would or should consider making gas guns based on paintball mechanisms - that was the question asked not wether some of us like gas guns

 

whats the point of saying 'why reinvent the wheel use a paintball system' when you'll have to reinvent the entire *fruitcage* thing to get power levels down to airsoft requirements, to get recoil into the system with those now teeny components operating at low pressures, to avoid patent infringements and ask the manufacturer to reinvent his entire manufacturing base and market to get it to sell?

 

not

 

going

 

to

 

happen

 

It'll bring *fruitcage* all new to the party that anyone actually wants other than remove the sewing machine noise - while expecting them to accept an external rig Escort havent managed that to date with both noise and recoil on offer.

 

Noise Recoil range and accuracy and ability to fit into a stock AEG body and you just might get a number of folks interested enough to actually buy rather than just dribble 'coool Im soo buying that' like they do with every other ###### new thing that gets 2 minutes of fame on the news pages of airsoft boards.

 

It'll take an entirely different approach to one of modifyng a paintbal mechanism to do that

[MDK_Marshal]

Less than one page of posts. Three thousand three hundred words of pure, unadulterated grammatical smackdown.

 

I believe this qualifies as a ZING, or thereabouts.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

Not that I'm condoning the worship of gas guns, but using nitrogen instead of air/CO2/propane would be far better, nitrogen is far less affected by temperature than most other gases, and as such would be a far more reliable propellant, I'm surprised nobody has started selling it for gas pistols.

 

For my side of things, I think that an AEG that has real handling characteristics would be perfect, needing to cock it, no dryfire, decent recoil, etc, but for £200! that'd be the best AEG ever, and I'm pretty sure that they'd be insanely popular with anyone who enjoys airsoft for the realism aspect, as we'd suddenly have real weapons handling to throw into the mix.

[Azulsky]

Not that I'm condoning the worship of gas guns, but using nitrogen instead of air/CO2/propane would be far better, nitrogen is far less affected by temperature than most other gases, and as such would be a far more reliable propellant, I'm surprised nobody has started selling it for gas pistols.

 

For my side of things, I think that an AEG that has real handling characteristics would be perfect, needing to cock it, no dryfire, decent recoil, etc, but for £200! that'd be the best AEG ever, and I'm pretty sure that they'd be insanely popular with anyone who enjoys airsoft for the realism aspect, as we'd suddenly have real weapons handling to throw into the mix.

 

 

You know how much nitrogen costs, ive heard enough wining from my car friends about having their drift set getting filled up.

HPA is fine for the classic support weapons, CO2 works perfectly for everthing else.

[MDK_Marshal]

Please, just let this thread die. Please.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I'll admit that I have no idea how much nitrogen costs, because I have an unlimited free supply at work!

Unless I've misread you, and you mean filling tyres with nitrogen, the comparison isn't valid, as cars use nitrous oxide to gain power, not pure nitrogen.

Assuming that you're right about the cost of nitrogen, electric is still the way to go, as using atmospheric air at the moment of firing negates any differences in drag caused by the temperature and pressure of the day.

That's why I'd like an AEG with proper characteristics, not a muddled together gas system that requires me to have a hose attached to my gun, which is the greatest realism killer in my opinion.

[HeartBreaker1317]

Less than one page of posts. Three thousand three hundred words of pure, unadulterated grammatical smackdown.

 

I believe this qualifies as a ZING, or thereabouts.

 

Sigged

[mcnuggets]

You seem so keen on shoehorning paintball designs into airsoft. You seem to blithely ignore the fact that gas powered systems have, by and large, been utterley disregarded by the airsoft industry. The ONLY products you can easily get in gas are pistols, the odd sniper rifle, and shotguns. there are some other niche products, yes, but that's what they are. Niche. small market, not a huge ammount of cash.

 

IMO the Japanese have dropped gas systems because of laws that are particular to Japan such as regulating velocity and the distribution of HPA and CO2. These laws amplified the disadvantages of gas systems and producing gas rifles were deemed to be uneconomical because of this. However in North America the laws are more liberal. Combined with the fact that there already is an existing paintball infrastructure which helps mitigate some of the problems associated with gas use.

 

Gas designs were almost universally renounced by the airsoft industry for practicality, ease of repair, ease of manufacture, economics of scale, and a million and one other reasons. Including player preference.

 

I'd say this is much more true in Japan than anywhere else.

 

By and large, the generaly (airsofting) public DO NOT WANT paintball designs shoved into an AEG body.

 

How do you know?

 

Question one: "Why is airsoft reinventing the wheel everytime they come up with a new air system?"

 

How many air systems can you name? Or describe, to be simpler. Excluding gas guns, there's two. The piston design, and the bellows design used by TOP. Both are, fundamentally, the same, and have stayed the same since the birth of the marui FAMAS and the version 1 gearbox donkey's years ago. Modern Gas guns all run off one of two main systems - The Marui GBB style designs made by Tanio koba (this and variations on its theme are the powerhouses behind almost all gas pistols) and the WA Manga design, which is still fundamentally pretty similar, IIRC. There is no reinventing the wheel. there are no new designs, there are small adjustments and tweaks to certain parts of the systems, but, by and large, it's the same as it ever was.

 

Motor turns gears, gears move piston. That's it, when it comes right down to it. The design has stayed the same for at least 15 years, give or take, if memory serves me. Your first "question" is ######, and shows you know bugger all about how AEG systems have evolved (or, more accurately, not) over the years.

 

EDIT - Oh, forgot to add. The systema PTW System is, I suppose, SLIGHTLY different to a conventional AEG, as is the KSC HK33, I believe it is. However, the wheel was not re-invented, as these are unique, niche products that aren't trying to change the world. Let it not be said that I don't try to be thorough...

 

You're right with your first point, there aren't many electric air systems. Nor have there been much in the way of development from the reigning monopoly Mauri. I should have actually phrased my question, "Why would airsoft be reinventing the wheel if they were to design a new air system." The fact that 15 years have gone by without much innovation (aside from making different AEG shells and external accessories) is what is truly frustrating. While the paintball industry has progressed dramatically giving way to many different innovations. Solenoid controlled guns, HPA systems, fast charging regulators, and the list goes on. Can the same be said for airsoft?

 

Question two: "Why is airsoft relying on an overly complicated system of gears and motors to fire BB's? "

 

If Five gears (counting the pinion and piston) and a motor is complex to you, then, well, I'm impressed. Not many people can be unable to grasp such a simple system. The way it works is thus - you have a motor. It pulls a spring-loaded piston back, then releases it. The piston goes forwards, compressing air as it goes, which pushes a BB out at high speed.

 

Tell me, how is that NOT simple? Seriously. It's as simple as it gets. the ONLY thing you need is an electrical power source and it'll run from now 'till eternity, or as close as you can get with parts made to a (relatively) tiny budget.

 

The remainder of the parts in the gearbox (The three main gears, anti-reversal latch, etc) all serve VERY simple and easy to understand functions. There is no superflous little flange here or there to support an elegant but pointless system of things that don't need to be there. There is NOTHING in a gearbox that doesn't need to be there. It's as simple as you're gona get.

 

Tell me, how is that NOT simple? Seriously. It's as simple as it gets. the ONLY thing you need is an electrical power source and it'll run from now 'till eternity, or as close as you can get with parts made to a (relatively) tiny budget.

 

The remainder of the parts in the gearbox (The three main gears, anti-reversal latch, etc) all serve VERY simple and easy to understand functions. There is no superflous little flange here or there to support an elegant but pointless system of things that don't need to be there. There is NOTHING in a gearbox that doesn't need to be there. It's as simple as you're gona get.

 

In comparision to paintball mechanisms I would say electric gearboxes are much more complicated. We're going to have to agree to disagree here.

 

External air may well simplify the internal workings a TAD, but not that much. Where's the simplicity of setting up an external air hose, checking for air leaks, making sure a regulator is set to the correct pressure, checking a bottle of compressed gas is full, making sure seals are good, keeping o-rings lubed and fresh, and a hundred other things to ensure reliable operation of a gas gun, when compared to simply plugging in a battery and pulling the trigger?

 

How about charging and discharing the batteries, opening up the gearbox to replace a spring or a piston, or making sure nothing gets wet in what is an outdoor game? Where's the simplicity in that?

 

Also people coming from a paintball background, a significant percentage of airsofters IMO, generally won't find these gas related tasks difficult.

 

Question three: "Why aren't the Japanese doing what they do best; copying American designs and making them better? "

 

Oh yes, this is what the japanese do best. Miniature electronics, fuel efficient cars, unique culture and food, personal honour systems ingrained in everyday life, technology outstripping the rest of the world - yeah, everything good in japan is copied from america. Right. take a look at the world before making ill-informed decisions and spouting them like gospel truths.

 

Well I hope they don't get their subtle (or maybe not so subtle:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq2Hicsy4xg) pedophilia from the states .

 

But in all seriousness I hope you understand my drift here. I did not mean any disrespect.

[mcnuggets]

"Question" Four: "Think about what is possible under a paintball-like design. Adjustable ROF. Adjustable velocity. Efficient use of gas."

 

It's not realy a question, hence the quote marks. But I'm gona treat it as such anyway for these purposes.

 

Adjustable ROF - Beefy Pot/Variable resistor (your choice of terminology) in line with the motor. Or, if you want something to allow a fast trigger response and still a low ROF, I'm sure I could do some research and whip you up something to start and stop the motor so many times per second. MOSFET system with active braking should sort out most of the problems with it, and the whole thing could probably be run simply via a 555 Timer chip. Set the time constant with a Pot and away you go.

 

Adjustable FPS - Change the spring. it's not superglued to the gearbox, you know. Want it changed on the fly? get a gearbox with a fast spring change feature, there's quite a few on the market nowadays. Prowin/PGC CNC Gearboxes for version 2 guns, every Star gun in existence, a hell of a lot of support weapons, ICS M4's, and so on and so on.

 

Efficient use of gas - Hah. AEG systems use atmospheric gas as a propelant, which is free of charge, is compressed in situ, with no need for storage,in or near the gun, can be re-used as soon as air currents take it back into the gun, abnd is all used to propel the projectile (IE, none used to cycle the bolt and so forth). That's prety much the DEFINITION of efficient gas use. When somebody invents a Paintball marker that can compress air in situ in a fraction of a second ready to fire a shot, let me know, and I may well change this. 'till then, AEG's Stay more gas eficient than ANY paintball design.

 

IMO these features are more costly to implement into an electric gearbox, where they have to be essentially "jury-rigged" into place, rather than using a dedicated high performance system. It's like trying to get a 10 second 1/4 mile from a Corvette and a Corolla. Both can definitely possible reach that goal given enough modifications but one will get there far more easily and reliably than the other.

 

Also changing springs can be a real pain. Especially without a dedicated (and fairly expensive) aftermarket gearbox housing. Your last argument about gas efficiency intentionally missed my original point.

 

I've also spotted you talking about the reliability and lifetime of the AEG system. Such as, how many shots will a piston last at 400fps, how long will gears last, etc, etc. In, say, a stock marui, then yes, you have every right to say that it's unreliable. At those power levels.

 

Marui's are designed to conform to japan's power laws - once you go too far over those laws, they are designed to fail, catastrophically. know what that means? it means that you are expecting components to perform well beyond the point where they are designed to fail. It's like expecting a 15 amp fuse to hold out when you put 20 amps of current through it. it's simply stupid.

 

Problem is, airsoft components are not designed to do such things. There are, of course, exceptions - but most parts are still designed to comply with japanese laws, or, at the very least, to be somewhere near them.

 

And the differences in preferences between North American and Japanese players are based on these regulations. NA players generally prefer higher velocities and probably higher ROF's as well. And an AEG platform is not optimized to fire at these velocities and ROF's as you've said before. That's why IMO NA players would opt to buy an alternative system given that it had a certain level of reliability and if it the price was right. They would like to take advantage of the more liberal laws and club rules.

 

It is, in fact, remarkably easy to build a gearbox that can perform at, say, 500fps and 20rps for many thousands of rounds - given enough cash to build such a box, I'd wager that I could easily build a box running at those specs to last for at least 150,000 rounds.

 

Magnum motor, Titanuim gearset, High-Quality Aluminuim CNC gearbox, Strong lightweight piston (Carbon composite, maybe?), and a beefy spring and you're pretty much good to go.

 

You can probably get an electric gearbox up to those specifications. But how expensive would this an upgrade like this be? It might be cheaper for the consumer to buy another product, a gas airsoft rifle let's say, to fill this demand

 

However, it comes down to why good old America is oh so great - economy. It aaaaalll comes down to money. Nobody wants to buy a £200 set of titanium gears. Nobody wants to buy a piston made of Ultra-Composite Number 17 that costs more than the gun you're putting it in. The parts currently on the market are designed to a certain specification, and somewhere along the line, that specification is set down by doing a good old fashioned Cost/benefit analysis.

 

And Mauri or any other major airsoft manufacturer isn't seeing the benefit of tapping into this NA market. Their cost/benefit analysis is flawed.

 

Parts are designed with tolerances. Parts are designed to fail. Parts are designed with an expected lifespan. This isn't jsut for airsoft, this is for the whole damned WORLD. Everything breaks sooner or later, and if you push parts beyond their intended specifications, you bet your *albartroth* it'll be sooner.

 

Again I agree and again it shows why AEG's generally cannot perform well under the higher stresses that are demanded by NA players. The demands on the parts go beyond the recommended stresses. And to upgrade this system to accommodate that added stress would be costly and inefficient.

 

To be frank, from where I'm sitting, you're talking a lot of good old fashioned ######. However, I won't have it said that I'm not a fair and honest guy. if you can shoehorn a paintball design into the same externals as an AEG, and have it firing as reliable and performing as well, and for a similar cost (once upscaled to mass production, of course), then I'll concede that you do, in fact, have a point, and we should all switch to the incredibly awesome paintball designs. At this point, though, you'll have likely patented such a system and have caused the second revolution in the airsoft world, and have enough money that what people like me say won't matter one teensy bit.

 

I'm really just thinking outloud about the economics of developing a new system like this. I have no intention of building one.

 

If you can't achieve such a thing, then you'll stop making these god-awful threads where you wonder to yourself why airsoft manufacturers don't use designs they abandoned almost two decades ago while every technically minded airsofter reading attempts to perform brain surgery on themselves using the nearest available wall.

 

Why is it so terrible to you that people discuss this issue? And I'm not suggesting that airsoft manufactuers use outdated designs at all. I'm suggesting they develop new systems possibly using paintball as an inspiration.

[cosmic]

I don't think its bad to discuss these ideas but you seem pretty sold on them and aren't really taking anyones opinions onboard, or so it seems.

 

Anyway, personally whilst i like realism (blowback bolts etc) i find the AEG system a good one, and yeah it could be improved probably but alot of airsoft is centered around it and perhaps compatability is the key here!!

[snorkelman]

I like gas based designs but I dont beleive paintball ones are going to offer anything new at a cost airsoft manufacturers are going to be willing to put up with, particularly when the cost of some of the 'benefits' you quote e-triggers burst modes etc would cost more than adding similar electronics (or equivalent mechanical options) to existing AEG designs.

 

If they arent willing to spend the dough neccessary to add the features already why expect them to spend even more to add the features via adapted paintball designs.

 

As Ive said before I dont beleive paintball systems are scalable to airsoft power levels and size constraints while offering appreciable bolt travel or recoil. if you arent going to offer that you may as well use the russian drozd system solenoid triggered gas valve, multiple (fixed) burst mode options thru a very simple circuit that could be shrunk to AEG requirements very simply and (slightly) tweakable power levels by adjusting solenoid travel. However end result will still be a NBB gas gun that I dont see a big market for.

 

 

[mcnuggets]

I like gas based designs but I dont beleive paintball ones are going to offer anything new at a cost airsoft manufacturers are going to be willing to put up with, particularly when the cost of some of the 'benefits' you quote e-triggers burst modes etc would cost more than adding similar electronics (or equivalent mechanical options) to existing AEG designs.

 

If they arent willing to spend the dough neccessary to add the features already why expect them to spend even more to add the features via adapted paintball designs.

 

As Ive said before I dont beleive paintball systems are scalable to airsoft power levels and size constraints while offering appreciable bolt travel or recoil. if you arent going to offer that you may as well use the russian drozd system solenoid triggered gas valve, multiple (fixed) burst mode options thru a very simple circuit that could be shrunk to AEG requirements very simply and (slightly) tweakable power levels by adjusting solenoid travel. However end result will still be a NBB gas gun that I dont see a big market for.

 

I just think there's going to be some real technical hurdles with implementing recoil that would greatly increase the cost as well as decrease the gas efficiency of the system. Although I think the only feasible way to power recoil on an airsoft gun at the moment is with compressed air (or CO2) due to its greater energy density compared to batteries as well as the ease in which its energy can be converted into linear motion (which is probably what you need in order to simulate recoil).

 

I think the market for gas guns can be segmented into those who prefer to pay a premium for recoil (in terms of increased price, increased gas usage and decreased shot capacity) and those who do not. And although many people here on this board probably belong to the former group I think we're self selected. Coming onto an airsoft board generally would translate into a greater preference for realism because we take the game more seriously. There may be a whole slew of unseen airsoft consumers who don't even come onto boards like these who may not be willing to pay a premium for recoil because their preference for realism isn't as high.

 

I also think that in NA (and probably some parts of Europe), with the popularity of paintball and the great amount of crossover between these two sports, there are more consumers who would prefer a gas over an electric system than what we think. The fact that there are no viable gas systems (aside from pricey Escorts and 10+ year old classics) turns these potential consumers away. I would say that if a reasonably priced gas gun were on the market it would attract consumers (many paintballers and others who are used to guns with a little more "oomph") who were originally turned off by AEG's because they sounded "wimpy" and "lame" (which is how some paintballers I play with describe airsoft).

 

If they arent willing to spend the dough neccessary to add the features already why expect them to spend even more to add the features via adapted paintball designs.

 

I don't think that similar upgrades are comparable. For example a MOSFET chip that controls ROF on an AEG doesn't give similar performance when compared to its gas counterpart.

 

As Ive said before I dont beleive paintball systems are scalable to airsoft power levels and size constraints while offering appreciable bolt travel or recoil. if you arent going to offer that you may as well use the russian drozd system solenoid triggered gas valve, multiple (fixed) burst mode options thru a very simple circuit that could be shrunk to AEG requirements very simply and (slightly) tweakable power levels by adjusting solenoid travel. However end result will still be a NBB gas gun that I dont see a big market for.

 

You might be right about the unfeasibility of scaling some paintball systems down to airsoft levels. Maybe not all. And even if these systems can't be scaled down directly it may be able to be adapted.

 

I love the Drozd idea. If anything the Drozd systems really seems to be the way to go. Very simple. In case anyone doesn't know it's basically a push solenoid that pushes a bolt and valve combination. A very simple design where ROF and velocity, to some extent, can be customized based on how fast and how long the solenoid is open. The gun is priced at 220USD, 111GBP or 153E. Which goes to show that an electronic gas BB gun can be produced cheaply.

[mcnuggets]

Here are some youtube clips showing off the Drozd:

 

 

 

[SlvrDragon50]

1. The Drozd gun looks ridiculously retarded

 

2. 450 fps is far too hot

 

3. Its an Airgun

 

4. If converted to airsoft, it will be shooting even faster...

 

You seem wayyy too set on paintball designs. IMO Airsoft is more open ended. You see custom guns ranging from the Alien Pulse rifle or Candyman's DSR-1. You look at paintball, they all look the same.

[mcnuggets]

1. The Drozd gun looks ridiculously retarded

 

2. 450 fps is far too hot

 

3. Its an Airgun

 

4. If converted to airsoft, it will be shooting even faster...

 

Well the action itself would be copied, not the entire gun. So it doesn't really matter how hard it hits or what it looks like.

 

You seem wayyy too set on paintball designs. IMO Airsoft is more open ended. You see custom guns ranging from the Alien Pulse rifle or Candyman's DSR-1. You look at paintball, they all look the same.

 

The range in airsoft for different internal actions however is very narrow.

[Jaager]

no, you dont get it!! we dont want paintball designs or anything! Your only taking into account american ideas, yeh your american, but have a look at the url, its www.arniesairsoft.co.UK, UK stands for United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Great Britain is Scotland and England, Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland, therefore it should make sense that on a UK forum NOT AN AMERICAN FORUM!! you abide by:

 

1)the law of the UK

2)the Rules of the Forum you are on

3) COMMON SENSE!!!

 

im not sure what you understand of airsoft, i can see your from NY, from my understanding, aisoft is illegal in NY, so to you airsoft might be backyard skirmishes or paintball games with airsoft guns.

[Pendra]

How reliable 400 FPS guns are? Well, it greatly depends on the gunsmith. Any gun with decent parts and under normal use should fire 10k-20k BBs without problem. A JG G36 with Element FTK, good spring, quality hopup rubber and maybe a good motor costs around $200. Now if you mess up the assembly, the gun is likely to break after 2 skirmishes. If you are good, your AEG will run for ages (my guns do ).

[SlvrDragon50]

And do you seriously think the company will redesign their system just for you?

 

When they change the system, the item will cost more, and end up costing more than your conventional airsoft gun.

 

Also, with each new innovation, there will be more problems unsolved as the lack of people specialized in the Drozzt system. Also, there will be a lack of parts.

[mcnuggets]

no, you dont get it!! we dont want paintball designs or anything! Your only taking into account american ideas, yeh your american, but have a look at the url, its www.arniesairsoft.co.UK, UK stands for United Kingdom, the United Kingdom is the Union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, Great Britain is Scotland and England, Northern Ireland is Northern Ireland, therefore it should make sense that on a UK forum NOT AN AMERICAN FORUM!! you abide by:

 

1)the law of the UK

2)the Rules of the Forum you are on

3) COMMON SENSE!!!

 

What I've suggested isn't necessarily breaking UK laws. All I've said is that a gun of this type would more popular in NA than in UK or the rest of Europe.

 

im not sure what you understand of airsoft, i can see your from NY, from my understanding, aisoft is illegal in NY, so to you airsoft might be backyard skirmishes or paintball games with airsoft guns.

 

Possession is illegal within New York City limits but I keep all my guns over at a friends house who is just over the border in Nassau. I usually play (not so much nowadays) at a paintball field on Long Island or sometimes in New England.

 

[mcnuggets]

And do you seriously think the company will redesign their system just for you?

 

Not for me but for the untapped NA market.

 

When they change the system, the item will cost more, and end up costing more than your conventional airsoft gun.

 

Also, with each new innovation, there will be more problems unsolved as the lack of people specialized in the Drozzt system. Also, there will be a lack of parts.

 

That's probably true. An adapted Drozd (or any other alternative system) would definitely be more expensive initially so I would imagine it would be relegated to performance and realism oriented consumers who would be more willing to pay a premium. If it were to catch on and become popular amongst more mainstream airsofters however economies of scale would drive the cost down IMO.

[mcnuggets]

How reliable 400 FPS guns are? Well, it greatly depends on the gunsmith. Any gun with decent parts and under normal use should fire 10k-20k BBs without problem. A JG G36 with Element FTK, good spring, quality hopup rubber and maybe a good motor costs around $200. Now if you mess up the assembly, the gun is likely to break after 2 skirmishes. If you are good, your AEG will run for ages (my guns do ).

 

You are probably right. If taken care of an AEG can probably last many seasons of play but this requires some skill on the part of the user. And also 10k-20k of rounds before a catastrophic failure just isn't good enough IMHO. It needs to do better than that and I think the only way to bring greater longevity per price to airsoft is by using gas.

[Filip von Izabelin]

Frankly, I still don't get it.

 

You stay stock guns are to weak for NA, and upg. ones don't last long enough.

 

You can get a 230$ G&P/WGC Custom M16/M4 asg rifle, @360-80fps, which requires only a spring swap for 20$ to go at 430fps. Thats totally enough for a DMR, not an assault rifle.

It's rather cheap,for a high quality body, realistic look, and doesn't sport a external gas rig. Yes it doesn't have recoil, any paintball system converted to 400fps on 6mm pellets (0,20g) won't have it either.

It's reliable, and battery power is rather cheap.

 

A ext. gas rig rifle would have to excel in recoil and sound to convince 95% of asg players to convert to it. Most people will (and have already) sacrificed the sound&feel factor for the look factor, and ease of usage. And costs. It's much cheaper to repair most aeg breakdowns, then to pay for insane amounts of gas every weekend for a year. Lack of breakdowns will probably not counter the increased cost of using the darn thing. Lot's of players use a few thousand bb's per game, and adding gas to the cost won't help a lot. I would probably buy a internal gas gun, because I don't use more than 300bb's per game usually, but "milsim" type guys are in the minority, most people use tons of bb's and would have to sell their cars to pay the gas bill.