Copying Paintball Designs

[snorkelman]

on a cold day your maximum operating pressure available from propane (green) is roughly half that of what a green gas gun would expect at 20C (room temp)

 

propane at 20 degrees C (70 F) = 126 PSI

propane at zero degrees C (30F) = 66 PSI

 

 

by contrast CO2 at zero degrees C (30F) = 500 PSI

 

With CO2 your at 500 PSI significantly down on its room temperature pressure too, but still way higher than what the gun actually requires to operate as expected, with plenty of scope to regulate it down to the required pressure. Yes it'll cool all the faster in that temp so huge burst of auto arent a wise move but you've still got 3.5 times required output pressure to play with versus a gun thats only 'firing on half cylinder' when fielded at that sort of ambient temperature on green.

 

End result the gun will perform as it should (and keep performing as it should) on regulated CO2 for longer than it would on green at same cold temperatures.

 

 

I honestly cant comment on the KWC 12g caplet adapter Ive never used one and not sure wether it has adjustable regulation or just a fixed setting.

 

Any tests with caplets Ive done have been using a palmers regulator and a CO2 caplet adapter that fits onto it (the CO2 caplets I just use to test one guns gas efficiency against another as its a known quantity of co2) Most of the time I'll run either a 9oz CO2 bottle or a small 0.7Litre High Pressure Air tank, both of which offer a huge increase in capacity over a 12 gramme caplet.

 

The palmers regulator is adjustable from 0 thru to 300 PSI and Ive got a guage to confirm the pressure its kicking out before putting it anywhere near the gun. With the KWC even assuming it is adjustable you' no guage to confirm the output pressure which could be a bit <cough> dodgy

 

As I understand it the KWC adapter also uses a replacement valve for your gas pistol mag (and that may well vary from one gun to another, whereas I have the rig hooked up to old school airsoft guns where I just hook the rigs hose up to the guns own hose connector).

[Gliderrider]

Ta Muchly, have you got a link to that gear, BTW, its for a garand, dont know if that makes a difference.

[mcnuggets]

If anything money would be better spent developing better on-gun storage and pre regulation solutions for the existing airsoft blowback designs, to improve the chances of them getting more widespread adoption from those that cant see past the hose, than adapting paintball designs to airsoft use.

 

A micro regulator and high grade buffer tube gas solution suitable for M4s or a similar system for AKs making use of the upper receiver and running HPA or CO2 to cut out the hose would do a lot more for acceptance than any number of electronically controlled burst modes fittend onto an external rig powered gun.

 

You then have a reasonably decent sized reservoir to power the gun from rather than a mags worth of green, far greater temperature capabilities and the bility to either carry a spare reservoir to hot swap in game or at very least recharge from say a 20g CO2 or 70CuInch HPA tank the player has left sat at the safe zone. Critically you have a nice easy transition for those who might be tempted later to give it a go with a proper external rig (as they'd already have most of the parts required and a gun capable of fitting them onto).

 

You make a good point. You've convinced me here.

[snorkelman]

mcNuggets Aye I do reckon thats the easiest way forward for airsoft when it comes to the more advanced gas systems escort GBB mechbox etc Sell the players a workable hose free solution (thats really just a hose away from being a complete rig) and let them try it draw their own conclusions as to wether moving over to a larger off-gun bottle is going to be as much greif as they actually think it is.

 

Im sure most might be pleasantly surprised, but at least those that cant get to grips with it still have a viable internal stored option with a decent enough shot count that they arent tempted to sell back on straight away otherwise.. Secondhand churn never building a good rep etc

 

gliderrider dont see the garand bering a major issue to convert to external gas feed: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NMvczyvfj8...feature=related

 

that particulr chap has one helf of a long straight hose attached and a pretty crazy tank to go with it (you wont need a tank that size!)

 

Given its a pretty big rifle you might well be able to mount the palmers regulator and the little co2 caplet adapter directly onto the side of the stock would keep hose length to an absolute minimum (depending on how mnany shots that gun is ging to get from one caplet Ive never owned a garand so have no idea of wether its particularly gas hungry or not) I'll dig you out dimensions of that sort of setup and the various bits n bobs to costruct a full system. If you've got a photo of the current fill valve on the garand would help (Im assuming the fill valve will be screwed onto the gas reservoir of the gun as per the fill valve on a GBB mag?)

 

the alternative if you werent mounting the caplet and reg on the stock would be to use a bottle (or the same co2 adapter) plus the palmers regulator with a hose going from you to the gun

 

the connector that you'ld fit onto the gun in place of the normal gas valve would be a quick detatch type, so you could unhook hose from the rifle in ooh around a second or so..

 

Palmers reg from memory is around 130 dollars including shipping etc. Hose basic gauge and quick disconnect connectors can be picked up over here in the UK

[Gliderrider]

EEXXelent(Steeples fingers)

 

well If it is possible, I would probably mount it in the hollow butt, as the butt cap can be removed, and was designed to have an oil bottles & cleening kit stored in it.

 

I'll get a pik up as soon as I can.

 

This the beast your on about? http://paintballgi.com/index.asp?PageActio...D&ProdID=21

[snorkelman]

http://www.palmer-pursuit.com/online-catal...izer-female.htm

 

79 dollar one with the 0-300 PSI spring set option (no need for the guage option) Its the femal version of the one you linked to (female one will screw directly ontot he caplet adapter or a co2/hpa bottle)

 

however at the moment their website is pretty urm shagged so the caplet adapter that screws onto the reg isnt findable amongst all the broken links etc I'll try and get a couple if images and measurments done for you in the morning

 

 

 

 

[Gliderrider]

Thanks for that pal, It is much apreciated.

[Stealthbomber]

This thread is now pointless, I vote to lock it

Thanks but the forums have all the mod's they need.

There's still a discussion going on and I don't see any need to close this just cos you're bored of it.

 

Intelligent discussion is educational and interesting for those who take part. There are plenty of other threads to look at it this one doesn't appeal to you.

Alternatively, if the people posting in this thread get bored of it then it'll die naturally.

[snorkelman]

114mm for the regulator itself (25mm diameter tube) 220mm long with the co2 caplet adapter fitted (co2 caplet fits inside of that)

 

however you need to take acount of the 90 degree hose fittign that'll be on the regulator so instead of just beign a straight 25mm tube it'll be 44mm at the area where the hose fitting is

 

 

[mcnuggets]

What I'm about to say may be against the rules here. I apologize if that's the case.

 

I think the only real way of achieving recoil, many games worth of shots per refill, onboard fuel reservoir, NA velocities, and a good sound report is with a fuel air gun. I'm thinking about something like a Tippmann C3 which runs off the combustion of propane. Here's some youtube clips of the C3 in action:

 

 

 

And a short wikipedia entry:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tippmann_C-3

 

The C3 can get a outrageous amount of shots per 16 oz. of propane. Something on the order of 20,000 shots. And these are paintballs which are substantially heavier than airsoft BB's. A butt stock for an airsoft gun can hold at least 1 oz. of propane easily and might fire thousands of BB's before needing a refill. However a fully automatic unit may be difficult to produce.

 

And the only place this would fly IMO would be NA. The man (the BATF here in the states) generously said that the C3 is not a firearm. Although the man runs a tighter ship over in Europe and Asia unfortunately. The combustion admittedly would address many of these problems associated with gas. Onboard fuel. Cheaper than charging your batteries. Generous power. Enough to easily power a recoil unit. Not subject to temperature fluctuations. Awesome sound report. Potentially even an awesome blast report.

[mcnuggets]

For hiding an onboard source of HPA or CO2 I think a dummy M203 may be a viable option. And designing a gas system that runs off of raw instead of regulated CO2 may help popularize a gun like this because of lower costs and a larger reservoir (with no regulator to take up any of the already small amount of space).

[snorkelman]

aye I toyed with exhaust gas propelled systems before, if you're using a flammable gas as a propellant its a much more efficiet use of the gas than just squirting it into the atmoshpere. Trouble is most countries wouldnt consider this an airgun - the explosive gases aspects would push it well into most countries firearms categories

 

Even using platic toy caps rather than a primer in a cartridge shell with a BB on the end fall foul of uk law so I doubt that sort of setup would fly

 

 

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

It'd be ok legally to use combustion providing the law made an exemption for something that was obviously unable to be converted to fire live ammo and could not be modified to lethal velocities, but I can't see that happening anywhere, especially not the UK!

 

I think that electric is still the best way providing it has realistic handling characteristics, but nobody other than Systema seems to want to make an AEG that handles correctly, and there's no way I'm willing to spend £1000 on an average-performing AEG.

[snorkelman]

Raw Co2 takes you back into cooldown territory a lot quicker than a regulated system though and gives you the hassle of getting velocites back down to sensible levels. Even on airsoft guns that take co2 caplets theres usually a hefty pre-restricting valve before the propellant hits the gas release valve to keep the working pressures atthe firing end down to the 130 to 160 PSI level

 

Swappable small fixed output regulators rather than user adjustable regulators might prove a compromise in that respect - colour code them based on their output capabilities if folks want to adjust power from one environment to another they just buy the appropriate ones (or bypass them completely and go with an external rig if they want more finely tuneable velocities)?

 

 

 

 

[mcnuggets]

Is a fixed output regulator substantially smaller than an adjustable one to warrant using one? I didn't even think they made fixed output regulators.

[snorkelman]

Aye you can make them pretty small its really just an overblown highly restricted valve with room for a few shots worth of vapour ahead of it in a small expansion chamber to act as a buffer.

 

You'ld probably have room in an M16 buffer tube for an ounce or two of CO2, the fixed restrictor and a small expansion chamber = around 350 to 400 rounds on an escort system at normal UK velocities (though perversley enough it wouldnt work in a conventional M16 escot gun as it used the buffer tube for the recoil spring, but would do the job on one of their mechbox designs where the reoil assembly forms part of the mechbox itself and doesnt need the buffer tube space).

 

Either fill it directly or have a removable cartridge you can carry a spare or two of and hot swap in game. Hide it in an M203 and you ought to be able to get a fair bit more in there though your spare carts will obviously be bigger then too.

 

 

 

 

[mcnuggets]

On a side note I'd like to say that I wish more airsoft manufacturers made guns that just looked like military weapons without being replicas. (I'm not up on UK law here but I think it would benefit the Brits by it not being a RIF.) The Brits seem to love their airguns which solve many of the onboard air problems. Take these two for instance:

 

Airforce Talon SS:

 

Logun S16:

 

The fact that a system doesn't need to be "shoehorned" into a firearm's dimensions opens up possibilities. Digicon did something like that with one of their pistols. Just throwing that thought out there.

[mcnuggets]

I also think that the success or failure of the Escort gearbox will determine if airsofters truly want gas rifles. Granted of course that sniperx doesn't tank his own PR and that it performs decently and gives an adequate amount of recoil. It should also be cheap and fairly easy to install like it originally suggested it would be. IMHO that's going to be the real bellwether item for gas in the next few months

[snorkelman]

weirdly enough wouldnt be a benefit over here. 'Proper' airguns over here are classed as firearms due to their power and thus cant be RIFs (eg if the S16 was produced at airsoft power levels it would be a RIF due to it being of sufficient similarity to a generic firearm type to have the average person assume it was a gun, while not having sufficient power to still be classed as a firearm and thus would legally be an imitation).

 

to comply with uk airgun law the designs are all manual action, they rely on raw grunt and arent neccessarily all that inherently efficient (a lot of airpistol designs could actually learn a thing or to from the breech loading nozzle sealed action of airsoft pistols), worst of all from an adoption POV they dont look like real guns which is one of the major attractions of airsoft to the vast majority of existing players.

 

Digicon etc might well make non realistic looking designs that arent based on military pistols but to be honest at best they're just the japanese equivalent of target air pistols albeit at lower than airpistol power levels to suit that local market. Outside of japan where the same restrictions dont apply Id never buy any of the airsoft target pistol designs when I could buy the same designs cheaper in .177 or .22 air pistol form at several times the power and greater accuracy than the airsoft versions could produce (particularly given neither is going to be used in a skirmish).

 

A sort of kind of military-ish looking 6mm bb dispenser isnt going to get many takers in the airsoft scene I suspect it would just be regarded as a 6mm plastic BB equivalent of a paintball marker without the mess. One of my drozd has been converted to airsoft calibre and power levels but Id never skirmish with it it just doesnt look the part and was done more as a novelty.

 

Thats not to say there wouldnt be a market for a 6mm 328 to 400PS non messy paintball/airsoft/airgun hybrid (and they could well be designed to perform pretty well by taking features of each and building something from the ground up) but I have the feeling it would be a market of its own rather than one that would get a response from traditional airsoft players attracted to/used to realistic looking guns.

 

In airsoft when push comes to shove form takes priority over function. Any improvements in function are only likely to be accepted if they dont mess around with form. Offer them a marker capable of twice the range at same FPS with recoil and an onboard gas supply good for 3000 rounds and for all its impressive attributes I dont see many folks biting unless it looks like a realistic gun.

[snorkelman]

aye I do think the escort design will be a major test of interest I wouldnt rule the mass market completely dead if it fails (given it still has a reliance on mainly external power) but if neither it nor the WA M4 get any serious levels of sales (and fielding) it would be a major indication that gas will remain a minority interest.