Sniper Guide By An AEG User.

[TheBauer]

How many different pictures are you gonna pull out while trying to prove this one? seriously, it doesn't matter how good the pictures are, you aren't addressing the actual issue, which is whether they are effective in airsoft.

Im not gona bring any more pictures, i dont need to, i know that they work, other players know that they work, in AIRSOFT

 

As I stated in my original post, I have used ghillie suits as a visual aid to spot snipers, I wouldn't be able to identify them as snipers if they were wearing BDUs.

More to the point, if I spot a player who is out of range of an AEG wearing a ghillie suit I will assume that he has a high-powered rifle and is able to hit me, as such I will seek cover and generally take evasive action.

If I spot a player wearing BDUs at the same range I am very unlikely to assume that he has a sniper rifle, and therefore is unable to hit me, and then *THWACK* he shoots me.

well then i guess their ghillie suits are no good? doesnt their sniper rifle give them away as snipers?

and if the player is good enough you wont spot them when their out of aeg range in a ghillie suit, thats the whole idea of them,

if i spot a player outside of aeg range i dont underestimate them thinking they must have an aeg so im safe, being seen is half of being hit.

 

See the difference? the ghillie suited sniper is at a significant disadvantage in that situation.

I believe the idea of wearing a BDU comes under the term "hiding in plain sight" and has worked for me on every single occasion I have taken my sniper rifle out.

where do you play?

do you fancy coming to a woodland site up here in Norfolk (just outside of norwich) so we can test your theory that the bdu will work better than a ghillie.

ill camo my self up then lie down, you can then lie next to me, and other people can judge at LONG and CLOSE range who is easier to spot, if you want you can still wear your flourescent orange gimp suit if you feel so confidant. im sure youll still be uber invisible, crysis nano suit boy.

 

The simple fact of that matter is that if you hide well enough you can be invisible in a flourescent orange gimp suit, but the ghillie suit makes no difference at such short ranges, as is perfectly demonstrated by every picture you have posted here, in each one you stick out enough that you are very easy to spot, OK, so you stick out slightly less than someone wearing BDUs, but not by enough to make any significant difference to the time it takes someone to see you, let alone there being any question over whether or not they do see you.

that little extra time you say will decide how gets shot first.

 

seriously, either you need to play airsoft a little bit longer, maybe go to some different sites, or witness a ghillie suit that works, i dunno, i dunno what we players can say to you that will make you realise that they work, because if they didnt we wouldnt wear them, yeh some people wear them cos they look cool and they make them look more like snipers, maybe thats why i do as well, but the primary reason i wear one, is because it helps conceal me better than a bdu does. playing in a bdu would be *fruitcage* loads better because you have less drag, less weight, and easier movement. but i dont mind sacrificing faster movement (seeing movement is the key thing that gives you away, its what the human eye is attracted to first) for better concealment.

 

you say that they dont work for you? maybe your ghillie suit just sucks? no offence, but a ghillie suit is never finished, you always play around with it, tweaking it, getting it more effective, most people say a ghillie suit should be 60:40 vegitation:hessian im more of an 80:20 person myself, the hessian is used just to bulk it out a little if vegiation falls out, which is does, so you have to reapply.

 

[MooCow]

balberoth, just curious... how long have you actually played airsoft?

making such generalisation in things like bdu+veg is equal in effectiveness(if not, better) in something similar to the bdu style. because it's not a 'full ghillie'

 

and if you say all the pics show that you're still able to spot the guy without much trouble in the pictures. maybe you should think in realistic terms. yes. i.e. think of how it'd look on the receiving end.

 

just like saying, oh yes. you're hiding in a trench. i'll jump in the trench and i'll see you because i cant see you outside of the trench.

 

merry xmas. happy boxing day

[rallymad_nad]

Why is there always need to be called a sniper? It doesnt suddenly give you extra skill over anyone else. It makes me laugh when I use my bolt action and people are like, "Hey, you with the sniper rifle, shoot that guy over there, yes the one 300m away with his finger sticking out".

 

I used to use a bolt action because of the extra range but with the power some sites allow aeg's I find it pointless now.

 

On the note of ghillies, I have never been seen because I was not camo'd enough, but just because I moved. Numerous games I will move into cover wearing simply Woodland dpm and have people move past a few feet away, glance in my direction and never spot me. Now I understand that they do work, I just choose not to use one because I've never felt a need for it.

 

Tbh most ghillies will stand out from a metre away, I've yet to tread on anyone by not seeing them at that range. Fair enough if your in one spot all day you can tweak your outfit all day but when your moving around of course here and there it will stand out.

 

This isn't the real world, bolt actions can't work miracles and I find my standard G&G UMP with a silencer on just as effective, with 50rnd mags.

 

The advice generally is fine, I dont see why people need to nit pick. Not everything is set in stone.

 

 

[Staceh]

So what your saying is, the ghillie suit gives away the FACT the other player is carrying a long rifle, surely the fact hes carrying a long rifle would give that away anyway.

 

Ghillie suits work, theres no doubt about it, its a aid to someone who can use the basics of field craft to their advantage, its not something that makes you 100% invisibile in all terrains.

 

My ghillie is constructed the same as 'thebauers' very basic, but with lots of natural vegitation thrown in, it works and works extremely well. The cry of 'sniper' on our local sites is one made with some fear (airsoft style naturally)

 

Now your moaning about our use of visual aids here, but its a visual discussion, so we'll use what we can to aid our point, do you have any photo's of your suit?

 

Airsoft to us is a game, were not geardo's that play for the look, were players that play for the fun of sneaking around and shooting people, our kit has been created and modified in tandem over the years to create what we feel is perfect for us and the sites we play on.

 

As for thebauers invite, please feel free to come along, we'll show you just how effective these bad boys are, or failing that, wheres your local?

 

UrbanNinja Thankyou, those photos were taken as staged shots for the most part, one of the marshalls wandered over to see what the cameraman was taking stills of, we stood up and he nearly made a mess, you'll notice the lack of vegitation in our 'full ghillies' in that shot as well, those were pretty much bare suits and they could have been so much better!

 

Rallymad nad, I dont class myself as a 'sniper' i'm a player but because i use a boltie and the walking bush style of play i fall into that catagory i guess. And for the record were not nit picking here, the gentleman above has stated that ghillies are useless, and I'm personally stating hes talking trash and has no idea what hes talking about.

[chillindrdude]

ghillies are just like any other tool. effective if made and employed properly. because you've been around amateurs and/or noobs that think burlap tied to a netting or twigs rubber-banded to a bdu is a "ghillie". your generalization that ghillies don't work is simply flawed.

 

that goes the same for your generalization of geardos. sound to me like alittle bit of envy on your end.

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

To Rallymad, thank you, that's exactly what I was saying, more or less.

 

To the "how long have I played airsoft" question, does it matter? and even if I had only bought my first gun yesterday the fact that I've been in the British Forces (RAF to be precise) for four years means that I've had more actual training in fieldcraft, camoflage, shooting etc than anyone on this board who isn't either an actual combat troop or a serviceman with more time in than me, so the question would mean nothing anyway.

 

Unfortunately I can't come to Norfolk because I'm due to go to Afghanistan again in a week and a day, and besides which I'm based down south anyway, so it'd be a bit of a trek just to prove a point.

 

Saying that the snipers at my local site(s) must suck is a cop-out, it allows you to pretend to deal with the point even though you can't.

 

Regarding the flourescent orange gimp suit, you really missed the point there, didn't you?

 

I've been to enough sites and witnessed enough ghillie suits, some good some bad, all entirely pointless, because I could still see them on the field without any difficulty, I never said that BDUs are better than ghillie suits, I said that ghillie suits are not better than BDUs at airsoft ranges, something that is echoed by various posters in this topic, including the above poster.

 

While using my sniper rifle I have never been spotted and engaged by another sniper while wearing DPM in a decent hiding position, but I have spotted ghillie suited snipers who thought they were hidden, you may want to claim that they all suck and are not "1337supermegasniperzzlikemeeeee" but I seriously doubt it, one of the snipers I spoke to started airsofting in the days when you had to build springers from kits, it's reasonable to expect that he at least knew what he was doing!

 

Edit: Envy, yeah that's right, I'm terribly envious of people who spend £1000's on kit that I get issued to me for free, it's a hole in my heart that can never be healed.

To Staceh, I'm not complaining about the use of pictures, it's fair enough, but a picture can't make the point about distance, lighting conditions, movement or any other factor, so I don't think that they're all that relevant.

 

Edit again: Sorry, forgot to mention that I can't provide a picture of my ghillie suit because I don't have one, I borrowed one from a friend for a few games but gave it back after I decided to just use DPM, incidentally he doesn't use it anymore either.

Finally, my DPMs have 4 brightly coloured patches on them, and they've never been a hindrance to me either, and I have mismatched camo anyway, so in my experience a ghillie suit is no better than (deliberate) bad camo!

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

Oh, and finally, I hope you ghillie suited snipers are displaying your team colour armbands clearly, because if you are hiding them under the vegetation you add to your suit, why, that'd be cheating.

[chillindrdude]

I've been to enough sites and witnessed enough ghillie suits, some good some bad, all entirely pointless, because I could still see them on the field without any difficulty, I never said that BDUs are better than ghillie suits, I said that ghillie suits are not better than BDUs at airsoft ranges, something that is echoed by various posters in this topic, including the above poster.

 

my inclination by your statement is either 1) you have thermal vision or 2)the ghillies you've seen are horrible or 3)the players you've seen wearing ghillies are not using them properly.

 

i'm not military (nor proport to be) but how much "fieldcraft" do you really learn in the Royal AIRFORCE than a dedicated infantryman or DMR/sniper in the army/marines?? just try to qualify your observations

 

i for one have stepped over a well concealed/camouflaged sniper wearing a ghillie.

 

 

[Staceh]

Unless hes RAF Regiment, or MP, i doubt his training on those basics is anymore than mine, i.e basic. Although I'll freely admit I've no idea what training the lads deploying to Afganistan are going through before they leave, I'd assume theres a fair chunk of firearms/survival training in there. So I'm probably talking ######s but hey, aint that the pointof this thread? Anyway, if you are headed over there - keep safe!

 

My armtape always goes exactly where the marshall puts it, always, and i have some on my rifle as well....

Although we do have a rule on our site that were ALLOWED to have our tape covered by our ghillies, its bloody obvious who we are anyway, after all were easier to spot than a DPM wearing rifleman. I get to wear a bright red armband as well, just to show that I'm a site marshall.

 

 

[screamin_weasel]

theres another picture of my current suit.

 

i took this photo, and i guarantee you he was not easy to spot, sticking out like a sore thumb, or wearing his ghillie for no reason whatsoever. the image posted has been cropped in, so the only thing you're looking at is the player. i dont have a copy of the original image anymore, but pre-crop, the player took up much less of the photo, and looks a bazillion times more concelaed than any other player on the field. as staceh has said, saying you cant identify a sniper because he has BDU's on is ######. the fact he has a bolt action, long rifle with a big scope on top is plenty enough give away for me. if the players at your local site dont realise this point, they need to wake up.

 

simple fact is - at the site we play at, ghillie suits, bdu's with hessien and plants stuck in them, they all work. it depends on the player how well they work. the types of games played can sometimes call for a compromise in styles - less camo for more manouverability or vice versa.

 

saying its easier to find a sniper in a ghillie is dumb - unless they're walking along the road in full view, then they will stick out against BDU wearers. on the other hand, a guy in BDU's can hide perfectly well. but if you;re ina ditch 10m away in a ghillie, you WILL be harder to spot than a guy in the ditch with some DPM on and thats it.

[TheBauer]

Oh, and finally, I hope you ghillie suited snipers are displaying your team colour armbands clearly, because if you are hiding them under the vegetation you add to your suit, why, that'd be cheating.

the wear abouts of the tape is down to the site,

if a site claims that tape must be on both arms then it goes on both arms.

 

i usually have mine around my wrists. but thats allowed.

 

Airsoft and the real forces arnt the same mate, you said it yourself the ranges are completly different with our ghillie suits, we work out ghillie suits for airsoft ranges not military ranges, hence why most military and premade ghillie suits are useless for airsoft because they have been made for a different type of use.

 

"Hey, you with the sniper rifle, shoot that guy over there, yes the one 300m away with his finger sticking out".

lol i love those type of players, its just like yeh ok mate w/e and you ignore them.

 

 

[Trasher]

Yes and no, i usually run .36 through my rifle if its windy, but will change to .29 if its not.

i dont carry different mags with different ammo in game because with that change you need to change the hop settting.

Same here.

For windy games I use .36 straight, the rest is .29 SGM.

The .36 requires a very different hopup setting, so no changes mid-game.

 

[Stealthbomber]

Stealth

 

Get to Gunman at Tuddenham, the resident snipers there, Stace for one, would prove you wrong. They have fast moving games, and the snipers can be a real pain.

 

Without the ghillie I would see them sooner, as a couple of the other snipers do not wear them, and they are less of a threat

 

I think you are over generalising a tad, but I see your point.

That's fair enough.

 

I might have been a bit one-sided in my previous post. I didn't mean to put it quite that way.

The point I was trying to make was simply that a ghillie is only useful IF the players can keep up with the action BUT still make use of the ghillie to conceal themselves before they're spotted.

If they CAN do this then good luck to them.

 

OTOH, it's no good dashing about in a ghillie suit in plain view OR crawling along in full concealment while the game's moved far away from you.

 

 

TBH, I reckon game scenarios have a lot to do with how effective a sniper can be too.

A simple elimination game is never going to give snipers a good opportunity to do their thing in airsoft IMO. The game is just too fluid.

However, throw in a few hard, non-moving, objectives (capture a CP, navigate waypoints, attack a village, blow something up etc) and snipers get a much better opportunity to make use of ghillies and really stick it to the opfor.

Obviously those are 2 extreme situations but I'm just using them to illustrate the point.

[Staceh]

Scenarios do really dictate the way you play, a good sniper regardless of his loadout (ghillie/non-ghillie) has to be able to adapt to whatever situation they find themselves in, and really quickly. Were pretty set up to do long range concealed engagements, but with the undoing of two clips my ghillie drops away, my pistol and reloads are in very easy reach and i'll happily dive into CQB with the best of them. Or I'll run alongside a assault force giving some accurate supporting fire.

 

Something I've noticed after playing as a 'sniper' for quite a while now the greatest thing a good sniper can do to deter a enemy from sticking their head out, is just aim at them, those crosshairs are magical! Or just being in a area is enough to make a squad detour by quite some distance, theres been occasions when whole enemy squads will not enter a treeline near myself or thebauer because they know we're in the immediate area.

 

A new job for a sniper perhaps? Area Denial

 

Your right though Bomber, you've gotta keep in the game to be effective regardless of your kit/camo, and you've gotta use your kit/camo to its full advantage at all times to be truely effective.

[Pablo]

I'm no sniper (though I've been told I'm not a bad shot with a bolty so I might have another look at the option this year) but I've played a lot of games over the past few years, and I can say from personal experience that ghillies (in their various forms) CAN work in airsoft. As Stealth says, it depends on the scenario as much as the skills of the player. During all-day fixed objective games at my local site, ghillies are extremely useful. They can be useful in some shorter games, but usually only for static defence.

 

Sorry, I have no photo's to back this up - just my personal experience.

[Stealthbomber]

A new job for a sniper perhaps? Area Denial

I was going to mention that a while back when somebody listed a snipers roles.

One of the best things a sniper can do is inconvenience an opfor by making them stay away from or go around certain areas.

 

Of course, there's a fine line between blockading an area effectively and just tossing it off waiting to shoot anything that walks past.

It's no good denying the opfor access to an area where they haven't actually needed to be for the last half hour.

I guess comms and a bit of planning could see a sniper "touring" the field, inflicting casualties and then moving on to a new, pre-planned, location for more of the same.

 

Interesting really.

I honestly haven't been to an airsoft event where that level of real-time planning actually occurs.

If anything like that happens it'll be because the game has been designed to run that way.

 

Course, most of the people I play with think I'm wasting effort just for carrying a map of the site around with me during games.

[Pablo]

Best use of snipers I've ever seen?

 

Game: Team A have to enter an area and secure a bergen before they can move to the next area. The areas were divided by concrete roads through the woods (this was at Finmere) and they could only cross at a designated (and marked) point - a "bridge" across the concrete "river".

 

Team B had to slow them down. Once Team A had completed the mission, the game was reversed - fastest team won.

 

I was marshaling.

 

At one point, Team A couldn't or wouldn't cross a bridge because they could see 3 snipers on the other side - all of whom had range on the bridge, but were beyond the range of Team A's AEG's. Essentially, Team A froze because of their fear of Team B's snipers. I know, because they were quite vocal about it. They had their own snipers, but didn't use them well (sorry guys, but it's true)

 

Meanwhile, 2 more snipers from Team B moved up on the flanks of their area and kept popping Team A off one by one. I saw 6 people taken out by repeatedly hiding behind the same tree - one of them 4 times.

 

Of course this only worked because of the way Team A played, but it showed me how snipers can freeze a whole team into inaction, even when clearly visible.

 

[rallymad_nad]

Rallymad nad, I dont class myself as a 'sniper' i'm a player but because i use a boltie and the walking bush style of play i fall into that catagory i guess. And for the record were not nit picking here, the gentleman above has stated that ghillies are useless, and I'm personally stating hes talking trash and has no idea what hes talking about.

 

Sorry, the nit picking had nothing to do with the ghillies, but posts aimed towards the original post, but this seems to have lead onto the ghillie discussion.

 

The 'sniper' bit was added in just because it annoys me, wasn't really relevant

 

I hate people calling me a sniper because they then assume I am superman and at the start even team players were saying I couldnt hit anything, until they had ago. It soon shut them up as they couldnt hit anything either. Bolt actions are not point, shoot, and kill at the ranges people would like them to be.

 

I use mine as its just something different. At at 30m, it hurts more

[Staceh]

Fair play mate, I guess I'm the same, i use a boltie because its imo a more skillfull style of play, I've one shot, then a 3-5 second gap before i can get another accurate shot off (If I'm fast), I find the AEG style of spray and pray a little too easy. Hell, i even play CQB with just a pistol.

 

Don't get me wrong, i have AEG's as well, several in fact, and I'll even be dragging one with me to a game this sunday, but the boltie and ghillie will be my primary for a long time to come yet.

 

[HeartBreaker1317]

Denying the Oppo's ability to move on their objective is a thing near and dear to my heart. Though the worst thing that should *normally* happen to you during a game is getting hit with little plastic balls, when in game that becomes the be all and end all. So a well concealed sniper ((Which more often than not means a ghillied one)) is a major asset during even faster paced games, as they can create pinch points where the enemy cannot go for fear of a little plastic bb.

 

A sniper then, in fast paced games ((And in most scenarios to boot)), is a tool to kill the opfor's momentum, and should be used as such. You can keep them from maneuvering, and then let your team move in to sweep up ((Comms from the original post)).

 

Now, as to the pictures - I know that in those photographs, the ghillies stand out, but if you came upon them in the woods during a firefight, the ghillies would make you less likely to think "Oh, look, the Opfor, better hose the pair." and more likely to think "Bush, Bush, Shrub, Thistle, Tree, patch o' grass, another Thistle, &c." therefore passing them by and leaving them intact ((Though extremely freaked out, if my experience is accurate)).

 

Anyway, Balberoth, come back from Afganistan with some cool stories, a good scar or two, a grand tour stache, and play airsoft with your Arnie's mates. Cause when it comes down to it, whether or not a ghillie works for airsoft, at least we can all have fun. So good luck, and come back safe and sound.

[The Bushman]

"To the "how long have I played airsoft" question, does it matter? and even if I had only bought my first gun yesterday the fact that I've been in the British Forces (RAF to be precise) for four years means that I've had more actual training in fieldcraft, camoflage, shooting etc than anyone on this board who isn't either an actual combat troop or a serviceman with more time in than me, so the question would mean nothing anyway"

 

No offense, but you are talking ###### m8. I've been seriously involved in Airsoft gaming as often as possible for the past 17 years. By that I mean gaming on events that last several days, not the quick "firefights" that you sound like you have frequented.

 

Its like me saying "I have been doing this 17 years, so obvioulsy if I joined the RAF I would be like UBER ELITE squadron commander."

 

If ghillie suits are pointless up close, as they give you away, then surely they must be even worse further away? If BDU's can make you dissappear and blend in under close scrutiny (which sometimes they can).... then at long ranges BDU must just turn you into a blur?

 

No offense. But I tend to disagree and think you have been hanging around with players who use ghillies with no local camo or are just don't keep still enough?

 

Maybe you are talking about DPM with local camo attached? (which works excellently).

 

Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think so.

 

 

This picture was just taken with no dressing or staging.... I just jumped down on the floor and the photo was taken. As you can see.... this without doubt harder to spot than me just wearing DPM.

 

Merry Hunting

 

[Staceh]

That picture clearly shows the difference between bare DPM and a basic ghillie. Very nice!

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

I can't remember who said it, but we do more training pre-deployment, I did mine less than a month ago, the only bit I'm really remembering word for word is the bit on mines, and perhaps that's why I find ghillies so easy to spot, mines are so b*stard hard to spot in comparison!

 

To Heartbreaker: Det taches FTW!!

 

The armband thing was a reference to the fact that I've seen snipers stuffing plants over their armbands, when asked about it they responded "but it'll give me away if it's visible" they were just being naughty, and I'm glad that it's not an accepted tactic.

 

I think this is coming down to a difference in personal experience, I find ghillies easy to spot for whatever reason, most people here don't seem to find it as easy, perhaps I've been really lucky to see them on every occasion, perhaps I'm just really good at spotting ghillie suits, but either way most people in this thread have not found it as easy.

 

The only reasonable conclusion to come to is that ghillie suits can work, and I'm some sort of freakish mutant!

It's the only thing that makes sense when you consider everyone's experiences as a whole.

 

 

Thanks to all the well-wishers for my trip to the 'Stan, one thing I love about the airsoft community is that as a group we are fairly appreciative of the military, which is a nice change from dealing with the British public, who seem to think that we spend our entire time there raping babies or something.

God I hate the general public, so ignorant yet with the astounding ability to form an opinion on a topic despite having zero facts.

[The Bushman]

Yet, if you use some simple fieldcraft, basic BDU (as you say) can be almost as effective as a ghillie, but allow easier movement.

 

to see how I use simple BDU and a basic camelback (with bungees) to almost as good effect. Sorry if you've seen the film a million times before

 

Indeed, much is down to opinion and experiences, however, as pointed out by others, don't judge all bolt action players to be the same skill level of ones you have shot. Many, do just see ghillie as a fashion item and probably why people think they don't work to their full potential.

 

However, I don't think you are talking about BDU/DPM with foliage added?

 

Lots of this debate depends on season and density of foliage at that time. In summer the amount of cover is often prolific enough to let you hide in basic OG clothing at close ranges. Yet in sparser winter months, it is harder to hide behind foliage and the need to actually look like the forest floor is far more pending. Either way, if you hide in dead ground, it doesn't matter what you have on.... you will be concealed.

 

Best Wishes for 2008. Good Hunting

 

[balberoth-the-destroyer]

To Bushman:

Just to clarify, about me being in the RAF, the whole point of that sentence was these three words: more actual training so in that respect you may not think so, but you are in fact wrong, if you read the whole sentence it is a fact, and may I also point out that airsofting for a long time means very little, you may have been rubbish at it for 17 years (obviously I'm not saying you are, it's just a hypothesis).

 

By contrast I have to be re-trained in these things every time I go on detachment, yes, trained, by professionals many of whom have been in the military for longer than 17 years, if you honestly think that airsofting for a while is better for fieldcraft than being trained by people who do it for a living then you are very sadly deluded.

The whole "but not all military tactics work in airsoft" argument won't wash either, this is purely about camoflage and movement, which is universal.

 

Edit, punctuation.