WTF?

[Hedganian]

IIRC, Marx's original theory stated that a proper socialist/communist utopia could only be brought into existence following a successful capitalist period. Whereas the Soviets, Red Chinese, etc, tried it *instead* of capitalism and then wondered why it wasn't working.

 

Not that I profess to know a great deal about this sort of thing. I'm a REAL scientist, not a political one.

[Lord Blackgoat]

Don't know much about b*llocktics myself... But had to read a bit.

 

Something else that makes me think communism cannot work: you'd need the whole world to be converted, for a country applying it on its own could not sustain all of its needs by itself (and would have difficulties to produce enough wealth to import what it needs by competing with other systems) and the difference of wealth with its neighbours would lead the elites to fly away (hence the recourse to authoritarism or totalitarism in past experiences).

[GuzziHero]

One of the many interesting things I learned about Communism was that itll never work. As you say, L_B, you need everyone to agree that its the best thing...and you cant even get 6 blokes at a barroom table to agree let alone an entire country.

 

Through my studies though I felt that Communism cannot survive as a single system. Despite its supposedly anti-competitive nature, it DOES need a sort of 'opposing force' to drive progress as the progress from within itself is stifled by the nature of the system. For the same reason, Capitalism cannot exist without a similar opposing force as a closed circular economy cannot sustain itself ONLY based on manufacture and the conversion of its raw materials into finished product for a closed/limited market. It requires an external force to practice its economy on otherwise the production/requirement algorithm becomes destabilised. In other words, Capital growth requires something to grow into - it is a system based on sustained or increasing growth and therefore needs something to grow into. I hope that makes sense.

 

What I ended up believing in was a community based structure with a classless system, but one that reward a person for their personal learnings and achievements. Sort of like a barter system based on social and functional responsibility. Much closer to Anarchism, to be honest, but of course THAT requires everyone to be nice to each other and not cause disagreement. Youd have an easier job trying to turn back the tide...

[askeytheman]

I love the internet.

 

Look what happens to humour! All this policitics is making my brain hurt..

[Lord Blackgoat]

Woopsy... Hehe, guilty! Sorry for what happened to your thread mate!

 

Now, to keep it going :

Guzzi: interesting point of view there. Rewarding people's effort has always been the big problem communist systems have had to face (and failed to) IMO. If a doctor is going to [make as much money/have the same status/get the same medals] as a factory worker, why would someone want to study 7 years with huge difficulties? And that goes for everything, leading to the fall of the educational system and the loss of any intelligensia. Also, the lack of a proper laic education leads to religious extremism, and since religions have to fight each other to prove that they are more right than the next, it'll destroy the political unity. OK, I'm a bit exagerating, but the even highest IQ can be useless without the proper education, and if one generation fails to educate the next, the whole system is doomed.

[GuzziHero]

Youve hit the nail on the head there. If workers are paid for a 40hr week and it is not dependant on how much work they perform, then why should they work hard at all? Theres no incentive. What the system I studied came to was that there would be a national standard wage for each qualification level so there theoretically would be no migration of work to richer areas based on pay. This in turn keeps skilled labour in a particular community, and helps the entire community grow as a whole.

 

---

This may be a bit long-winded - skip it if you like! This is a bit of a Communist(?) rant

 

Part of what England at least is suffering right now is economic migration leading to an erosion of community spirit. I live in Stoke on Trent which is a particular victim of this. We are a low-paid city but with excellent travel links, sitting between the two most important long-distance motorways in the country. There are many high-value housing estates in the area which are out of the reach of most local people, but are bought by executives and higher paid workers who live here for the low costs, but then travel to other cities like Birmingham, Manchester, Sheffield etc. Most of the houses in these estates are bought before they are even completed, often without any viewing at all. Good for them for reducing their outgoings while keeping income high...but it ends up contributing very little into the local economy to help the city as a whole, and many of these people dont even know their next-door neighbours let alone take any part in their community.

 

The rest of the city is a mix of council-run estates, former council-run estates now in private ownership and owned estates. What we are seeing now is low value properties with very strong communities being broken up so that the land can be redeveloped by housing authorities for VAST profits. This is government-incentive-run destruction of these communities, people who have lived with their neighbours for 50, 60, 70 years are being uprooted and places...who knows where? In most cases these houses have stood for over 100 years and are still of fine standard (my own house was built in 1896).

 

One example of this is the Coalville estate. Mostly council-owned, some private-owned. 8-10 years ago many of the houses were reinforced because they were suffering some damage from subsidence. It was an expensive scheme. In the last 2-3 years many have been told the land their houses are on are unsuitable for housing and must be demolished but as soon as these houses are crushed, NEW ones at a much higher value are already being built in their place!. Whats worst is that these new houses are cinderblock and plaster houses, replacing concrete and brick... This is government theft at its most blindingly obvious. But what is being destroyed is far more valuable than housing property - it is the life and spirit of the city.

 

---

Back to the agenda...

 

In my 2 years as an 'Evil Commie Hippy', found that many of the members were that in more than one sense...a lot of them were complete doorknobs. They spoke their intent to destroy divisions between people, promote unity of purpose and more than anything else, overthrow the current government which they considered wasteful and 'corrupt'. (Id agree with the former by the way, the government is horribly wasteful. I do believe in re-nationalising ALL public services and certain industries, but with a system that promotes competition within each industry to continue progress. A lack of competition causes stagnation which is the danger of the 'national standard wages' system I outlined above).

 

What I found was often very much the opposite. Many members were just as, if not more, competitive and greedy as anyone Ive ever met. And thats a natural instinct - everyone wants to be the Prima Donna, everyone wants to be recognised as an individual and above the rest of the crowd. That if anything is what made me realise that I was wasting my time. There will always be someone in a debate who shouts louder than everyone else. But there has to be - there has to be leadership. The problem with the Communist system is that not everyone wants to be the leader but noone wants someone else to be the leader.

 

I came to the conclusion that to make a Communist system truly work, one would have to alter the very nature that makes a man - his will to succeed.

 

(there are also reasons why Capitalism is failing but I think thats for another time )

[Flakdragon]

Thing is, Capitalism is actually winning. However, Democracy is failing to beat Capitalism. Only in certain moments of history have democratic ideals actually been upheld in front of man's greed.

[WeirdoTransvestite]

Flak, Capitalism and Communism are Economic systems. They aren't forms of government like Democracy. The Soviet Union was a Dictatorship

 

You can have a communist democracy, just like you can have a capitalist dictatorship...it just wouldn't last with the latter. They're not mutually exclusive.

[Flakdragon]

I realize that, that's why I differentiated how Capitalism was winning and Democracy was losing because they are different entities. That's why I'm into a Democratic government with a Socialist economy.

[GuzziHero]

Hmm...interesting though, seperating politics and economics in that way. Im still not sure Capitalism is winning, though. It can only continue to do so by exploiting others.

 

Thats why Capitalism is directly opposed to movements trying to improve the standard of living of people on a global scale. It must always have a low cost production base and high cost end product. If costs get too high because their manufacturing base is demanding the same standards of living as the target audience, the product becomes cost ineffective. Thats exactly what is happening in the US right now - minimum wage and other similar laws are increasing the production cost to a stage where it is far more effective to manufacture abroad. This is a trend which can only accelerate over time.

 

Of course the corporations probably dont care - they are multinational after all and there will always be another market to exploit. Or will there? In the end I can see that Capitalist corporations will have to get more and more unethical over time to keep people in poor conditions economically in order to increase their profits.

[Cyber Soldier]

Are you talking of the corporate wars and private armies? If that is the case it will be a true global revolution and will bring us back to a time of Kings and Nobility but on a far more modern scale.

 

Make sence you Guzzi?

[GuzziHero]

Yeh, very much so. But I think those times are pretty much already here, but without the crowns and finery. Much as I dislike the Royal Family, I will admit they give us some sort of guard against those who would act as our rulers but without the right to do so (the corporations).

 

[Flakdragon]

If you've seen There Will Be Blood, you'll know that it doesn't matter how you get success in Capitalism, it just matters that you've got it. That's why it's pretty easy to triumph there, there's no soul and only a lust for more.

[GuzziHero]

Seen it? Never heard of it!

[Flakdragon]

I highly recommend it. Obtain it no matter what cost . It features some pretty awesome acting and the storyline is perfect for the times, even though it takes place in turn-of-the-century America! The theme: oil, oil, oil.

[Lord Blackgoat]

The system has already found a partial answer to the problem of low cost/high prices, in the form of services. The biggest industry in most "developed" countries is that of services.

 

Methink, people will soon realise that they are buying air (exchange markets, services, etc.) and that would lead to a crash, 1929 style. Now I know there are safeguards against that, but if it happens, I believe it would be on an unmeasurable scale, as globalisation (which I don't believe is as bad as some say it is) would make it an instantaneous and general crash. And that would be triggered by... gas. But hey, that's just me. I'm calling of all my wishes a major crisis, as my life is flat and boring and long, I need to put some spice in it, and shorten it artificially.

 

That or the Holy War 30% of the US forces are preparing against Iran -just read an article about Mikey Weinstein, 30% is stated to be the proportion of US soldiers of all ranks that believe in a "spiritually transformed army, with uniform-wearing Christ ambassadors, visited by the Holy Spirit"... 30% of 10 times worth the next highest ranked army in the world in terms of money, that scares the living sh't out of me!

[Flakdragon]

Just wondering, shouldn't we tread lightly with Iran? They are VERY buddy-buddy with China, and guess who else is with China too...

[Holmes]

Um, when did this cease to be the Humor Section?

[GuzziHero]

Original topic causes intelligent and well-reasoned debate. Original topic funny, debate serious and, may I say, very informative

 

[Jagdraben]

Yarr. I appear to be the most Centrist of those who have posted thus far, but still Libertarian, still a Leftist.

 

EDIT: Also: HOLY F___ ! ! ! I'm to the Left of Hillary (and just about everyone else running in 2008)!

[GuzziHero]

Wow... this is why religion and politics should be kept at arms length Those guys must be insane!

[Skarclaw]

http://politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgra...5&soc=-5.90

 

Who do I vote for? :/

[CSC Maverick]

well...that was a win lol. And why does everything that involves making fun of Bush turn into a deathmatch between Bush haters and lovers? jeeese its a video just for fun.

[GuzziHero]

http://politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgra...5&soc=-5.90

 

Who do I vote for? :/

 

You know...in the 5+ years Ive been sending Political Compass to folks...I have NEVER seen anyone hit the bottom right square?

 

What does that make you? Christian Libertarian or something?

[Skarclaw]

Well I'm not a christian, sooo....