You Opinion on AEG Snipers

[Dodge]

If you are trained in looking for human shaped objects a ghillie will do very little in concealing you at close ranges. Yeah he may have not seen you but he may also not have been paying attentions to his surroundings and realized his location. Of course it also helps that you probably have very good field craft skills which HELPS but does not make you invisible. You are right, to me you DONT need a ghillie, I've had guys walk over me wearing MARPAT in a patch of short grass. It's not that hard to conceal yourself it is mearly a tool, of which is not as effective as people claim it to be or for that fact video games claim it to be (COD4 Anyone?).

 

Definately the voice of INexperience. I am trying to be delicate here but to be honest you couldn't be more wrong, ghillies have great uses in CERTAIN environments. What your saying is "it doesnt work for me so its useless" hardly the view of someone who is thinking objectively

 

I guess it's not worth pointing out the problems with sniping airsoft because it will probably fall on deaf ears anyways

 

And shock horror someone dares disagree with you on that one.

 

 

I hate to bring in real life experience here but I shoot .22LR about 4x a week for 7 weeks straight during the summer and I know the hinderances and advantages of a BA......

 

 

It also doesnt help that I'm under the totourage of a Vietnam Army Ranger Sniper Veteran with a big mouth and a keen desire to teach us youngins how to play. He only has 20+ years of experience afterall in the art

 

2 points.... what did you shoot with your 22 rifle? animals? or targets? because animals don't shoot back and targets dont either so i wouldn't class that credible evidence to be honest.

 

There is nothing more irritating than people bounding around "military experience" in some kind of confirmation of knowledge. People have openly admitted on here that they are not into the military side of things. To be honest people who have being playing THIS SPORT for nearly 20 years have put their view on here, but yeah i suppose that won't campare to life in the military that has only basic comparisons.

 

Since apprently I've started this fight I'll end it by saying BA's are the god of all "sniper" rifles and that AEG's have no place in the sniper role.

 

Are we happy now?

 

For the record I never started an argument.....,

 

For the record, you did and you did it in way to tell people from all over the world that their point is not as valid as yours which has shown blatent inexperience on your part. You will actually find that many people have agreed in part with some aspects of what you have said but you continue to display a rank refusal to think objectively which is kind of a requirement in posting on PUBLIC forums.

 

now back on track......

 

There are aspects that a bolt action rifle with win over an aeg many times over. A shooter (I too do not class myself as a sniper) firing one shot from a camouflaged position is still very difficult to pick out especially when you think he already has you in his sights. You have to compromise yourself to try to pick the shooter out.

 

Bolt action on most sights are allowed to fire at a faster velocity as you have said. This far reduces the chances of dodging pellets and catch people off guard. They may also offer a much straighter and flatter trajectory to find there way through much narrower firing windows where the shooter can be totally invisible. In respect of people not calling their hits there is no answer that anyone can give to overcome this issue and I dont see how how can be looked at as a downside of the rifle. It is a definate downside of the player and the site but not the rifle.

 

On 7 day events (that people around the world do play) players dont see people or civilisation for that long, let alone find a power supply. In cases where batteries run out (which can happen overnight in cold weather) AEG's are rendered useless no matter how upgraded or how shiney, B/A rifles will keep going and going and going.........

 

In cases of GSPEC's there have been occasions where you literally cannot hear them fire. I am yet to come across an AEG that you cannot hear within firing range (and alot further).

 

I am sorry but without getting abusive URPEACEKEEPER you have approached this in a very poor manner.

 

Poor show old boy, very poor show

 

Happy Hunting

 

[Swerve]

As this is a UK forum at it's core (yes I know that the OP is from the US) it is worth mentioning that due to UK law there is a distinct advantage that BA's have over AEG's here.

 

You should not have an AEG upgraded to fire over 1.35j even if it is modded to semi only. If it is by build or design natively capable of automatic fire, it should be under 1.35j.

 

There is no such direct restriction on natively single action rifles e.g. bolt action rifles. Other restrictions do apply to these types of guns (BS's etc.), but nothing that should automatically make you shy away from taking the FPS up to 500.

 

I regard the above as quite important, as you have to factor in local conditions in an AEG vs Boltie argument.

[TDS]

Eh?

 

I'm sure there is a gun out there somewhere (probably an LPEG) for which that holds true. Equally, I'm sure that there are many for which it's utter nonsense.

Care to apply 1kg of force (to the muzzle, I assume) of a P90 and see what happens?

FAMAS or F2000 perhaps?

I know for a fact that the point of aim on my L85 doesn't change when I shoot from a rest. The gun weighs more than 1kg so, according to your little factoid, the barrel should bend.

 

No, sorry. Nonsense.

 

It's true that a heavier barrel will help resist flexing but the issue ISN'T likely to be the barrel. Unless the sights are mounted on the barrel, inaccuracy can still be caused by the join between the barrel and the receiver, on a boltie OR an AEG.

 

step 1: get calipers

 

step 2: try it

 

step 3: critique it

 

[Taquito]

dont bolt action rifles also use more air per shot? as in the cylinder assembly in a BAR holds and pushes more air out behind the bb than an aeg can? i imagine that would be ideal for consistency and using longer barrel lengths

[Stealthbomber]

There is no such direct restriction on natively single action rifles e.g. bolt action rifles. Other restrictions do apply to these types of guns (BS's etc.), but nothing that should automatically make you shy away from taking the FPS up to 500.

Although self-loading weapons >1ft/lb are restricted, that doesn't necessarily apply to an AEG with auto disabled.

The law states talks about weapons capable of firing more than one shot per trigger pull or self-loading weapons.

Obviously, an AEG capable of full-auto can be classed this way but it's arguable that a semi-auto AEG isn't actually "self-loading".

In fact, it's more of an electrically powered double-action system.

 

Regardless of the legal issues, the bottom line is that most sites don't like to see high-powered AEGs so, with this in mind, gas or spring sniper rifles will always be the way to go.

 

 

step 1: get calipers

 

step 2: try it

 

step 3: critique it

#1 Tried it.

 

#2 Nothing moved.

 

#3 Factual inaccuracy.

[TDS]

#1 Tried it.

 

#2 Nothing moved.

 

Then you really need to learn how to use calipers, even the weight of a penny causes something measurable if you have something better than dollar store digitals

[Stealthbomber]

Then you really need to learn how to use calipers, even the weight of a penny causes something measurable if you have something better than dollar store digitals

I'm sure it does, on a microscopic level.

 

However, none of that really applies to what we do with our toy guns now, does it?

 

*EDIT*

FWIW, I don't use calipers to measure flex. That'd be stupid. I propped my L85 up with the muzzle resting on a brick then set a magnetic dial gauge so it was touching the top of the receiver.

Add a 1kg weight on the top of the receiver and the dial gauge didn't move. It measures in thousands of an inch.

[TDS]

I'm sure it does, on a microscopic level.

 

However, none of that really applies to what we do with our toy guns now, does it? :rolleyes

 

Yes, because nothing smaller than ~1mm can effect an airsoft rifle

 

Bravo, clappy clap, you win the internets

[Stealthbomber]

Yes, because nothing smaller than ~1mm can effect an airsoft rifle

 

Bravo, clappy clap, you win the internets

I think your original point was (if I understand correctly) that a 1kg weight is enough to cause a barrel to flex by approximately 0.02mm or so.

 

I replied to say I thought that was vague nonsense cos different AEGs will respond in different ways to a 1kg load being applied to them.

I then went on to see if a 1kg weight would make a difference to my L85. It didn't.

 

As I said, I'll grant you that a 1kg weight probably IS enough to mes up some gun, somewhere.

 

Beyond that, I really doubt that barrel flex is a big problem for airsoft guns. It's far more likely, IMO, that the joint between the barrel and the receiver would be the weak point.

[Swerve]

Although self-loading weapons >1ft/lb are restricted, that doesn't necessarily apply to an AEG with auto disabled.

The law states talks about weapons capable of firing more than one shot per trigger pull or self-loading weapons.

Obviously, an AEG capable of full-auto can be classed this way but it's arguable that a semi-auto AEG isn't actually "self-loading".

In fact, it's more of an electrically powered double-action system.

 

Regardless of the legal issues, the bottom line is that most sites don't like to see high-powered AEGs so, with this in mind, gas or spring sniper rifles will always be the way to go.

 

Hmmm well considering the severe penalties that could be in play if you fall foul, I'd not be the one to try and argue the toss over what constitutes an automatic mechanism in court, especially in the current climate

 

The word I got via a site owner via the police was that a mechanism capable of firing more than one projectile at greater than 1.35j by design, regardless of whether it has then been changed to semi only would still be regarded as a select fire mechanism, and would be liable to get the holder of such a mechanism arrested. Modded AEG mechboxes would fall into this category.

 

I specifically researched this whilst building a DMR:

 

Firearms (Amendement) Act 1988 re-classified some firearms as Section Five prohibited Weapons:

 

1(2) For Paragraph (a) of subsection (1) there shall be substituted -

(a) any firearm which is so designed or adapted that two or more missiles can successively be discharged whithout repeated pressure on the trigger;

(ab) any self-loading or pump-action rifle other than one which is chambered for .22 rimfire cartridges;

 

Are there actually any UK sites that allow semi only AEG's to fire over 1.35j?

 

This isn't falling foul of the VCRA badness, this is real steel level badness. Certain parties out there would just love it if they got a conviction on the above.

 

I know I'm a bore, but we should be very careful about modding AEG's above 1.35j here in the UK, it isn't a subject to be taken lightly.

 

[TheBauer]

Are there actually any UK sites that allow semi only AEG's to fire over 1.35j?

 

This isn't falling foul of the VCRA badness, this is real steel level badness. Certain parties out there would just love it if they got a conviction on the above.

 

I know I'm a bore, but we should be very careful about modding AEG's above 1.35j here in the UK, it isn't a subject to be taken lightly.

Yes there are a few sites in the uk that allow semi aeg's shooting over 1.35j.

 

the VCRA doesnt affect power limits.

 

its going to be one of the things thats going to be done over and over, i very much doubt any body is going to get done for it because we dont get chance to get done for it, we dont wave our guns around in public shouting "this am over 1.35j" and what police do play at sites, well some of them play at sites where semi guns are over 1.35j so ? go figure.

 

as far as i see it, its down to you, if you want to risk it, then its your choice, if the site you play at allow it then its still down to you, they dont make the law. but then no one has been done for it.

 

how ever this isnt the place for this discuss

 

so back on topic,

i believe we were talking how 1kg can / cant afford the barrel no?

[lewis hiscock]

i dont want to step on your toes stealth as i respect your opinion

but as an instrumentational engineer im a little confused as to what

you mean by a 'magnetic dial guage'?

[Stealthbomber]

Are there actually any UK sites that allow semi only AEG's to fire over 1.35j?

 

This isn't falling foul of the VCRA badness, this is real steel level badness. Certain parties out there would just love it if they got a conviction on the above.

Yep, there are plenty.

Paintball guns are semi auto and they shoot at >1.35J. Illegal?

 

The Firearms act does specifically say that weapons not designed to be lethal should be exempt from the Firearms act.

I think it's reasonable to assume that airsoft guns are NOT lethal, even at 500fps.

We seem to all think the same too cos, if we didn't, we wouldn't be using 500fps bolties either, would we?

 

The Firearm act also says full-auto guns are banned and says that self-loading weapons with a rifled barrel are banned. Airsoft guns do NOT have a rifled barrel.

 

So, basically, you've got a statement in the Firearm act saying that you're not supposed to apply the act to guns designed for war-games and, to back that up, we've got a bit that says although full-auto guns >1ft/lb are banned, only self-loading guns with a rifled barrel are similarly banned.

 

From a legal POV, there's a very good case to suggest that a semi-auto AEG is perfectly legal to fire at up to 12ft/lbs.

 

HOWEVER...

 

As I already said, the key issue is a simple matter of safety and common sense.

A careless player could easily unload a dozen shots into somebody's face at close range with a semi AEG.

With a boltie the same person would only ever get a single shot off.

So, most sites will restrict the power of AEGs regardless of any legal issues.

 

I don't have any problem with that BTW. I happen to think 350fps is plenty. In fact, years ago, when people were playing with 500fps AEGs, you've often find yourself getting "sniped" by players who you'd never see. These days, with a 1J AEG, assault players have got to get a bit closer to each other and only snipers (with bolties) get an advantage in range, and that's fine by me.

 

i dont want to step on your toes stealth as i respect your opinion

but as an instrumentational engineer im a little confused as to what

you mean by a 'magnetic dial guage'?

Heh!

 

You if you want to be taken seriously as an instrument engineer, you might not want to go broadcasting that you've never heard of a Magnetic dial gauge.

[lewis hiscock]

nope never have

thought u might have meant a magnahelic gauge

[Swerve]

Yes there are a few sites in the uk that allow semi aeg's shooting over 1.35j.

 

the VCRA doesnt affect power limits.

 

its going to be one of the things thats going to be done over and over, i very much doubt any body is going to get done for it because we dont get chance to get done for it, we dont wave our guns around in public shouting "this am over 1.35j" and what police do play at sites, well some of them play at sites where semi guns are over 1.35j so ? go figure.

 

as far as i see it, its down to you, if you want to risk it, then its your choice, if the site you play at allow it then its still down to you, they dont make the law. but then no one has been done for it.

 

how ever this isnt the place for this discuss

 

Topic is AEG snipers, I'm on topic.

 

Having an auto capable airsoft gun firing over 1.35j is outside the boundaries of the VCRA, it is within the boundaries of the firearms act.

 

I'll run this by you.

 

You have an M14 with modded fire selector allowing semi auto only selection. It has been upgraded to 400fps.

You are on your way to a skirmish with it, on public transport (in this example).

It is in a secure bag, nothing on display.

It has the battery removed and located away from the gun.

Magazine is removed, it is unloaded and away from your gun.

 

You get stopped for some reason (it does happen).

 

Now, as we understand it, everything is still cool. It isn't on display, it has been made safe and you are on your way to an activity where you can legitimately use it.

 

However, if the policeman felt like it, he could have that gun taken in for testing. All of a sudden, everything above stops being precautions you have taken to stay legal, and then could suddenly become mitigation that you could use in court because you have been found in posession of a section 5 firearm in a public place.

 

Believe me, there are people who have varying amounts of power and influence who would love to get an airsofter convicted, simply because they do not like our sport. What a policemen does off duty and what another policemen, who may not even have heard of the sport, does whilst on duty is not something I'd like to take for granted, and what the CPS would do following on from that is anyones guess. In the current climate I wouldn't bet on too much understanding, leniency or common sense.

 

The case is different with a bolt action gun. At 500fps it is really now a low powered air rifle, and as such is below the limit where a licence is required. You can carry one in public if is properly secured/concealed, and you have a legitimate reason to have it with you.

 

That is the essential difference. An AEG modded to semi auto at 400fps is classable as a section 5 firearm. VCRA is no longer part of the equation if that occurs. A 500fps BA sniper rifle isn't, and you have a lot more leeway (although strictly speaking, you shouldn't fire it at anybody)

 

Talking of modding AEG's to fire over 1.35j is not something we should take lightly, as the first prosecution would have untold effects on our sport.

 

[Swerve]

Stealth, I'm just going on my own research and advice given to a site owner by the police on the exact subject of AEG's and 1.35j+

 

Take nothing for granted, certainly not when surfing the edge of the stinking polluted ocean that is UK law

[Stealthbomber]

In that situation I doubt it would matter if the gun was an AEG or boltie.

If somebody was that determined to convict you of something they've probably nick you for "intent of causing threat of violence" under the Firearm act so the type of gun wouldn't make any difference.

 

Beyond that, if you have a gun that legitimately has been modified so it fires only in semi and the FSS alter it so it fires in auto, that's more likely to reflect badly on THEM in court rather than on you.

 

"Was the weapon owned by the defendant capable of firing in full-auto when you received it?"

"No m'lud"

"And did you tamper with it in order to MAKE it capable of firing in full-auto?"

Yes m'lud"

"Then perhaps YOU should be in the dock rather than the defendant?!"

 

You should also know that you're mis-reading that excerpt of the Firearm act.

It's saying it's naughty to take a semi weapon and modify it so it fires in auto.

It does NOT say anything about whether it's okay to modify a full-auto weapon so it fires in semi.

 

Personally, if I have a semi-only M14 and it had a "secret" button inside the stock to make it fire in auto to clear jams then yes, I would be worried about being charged with having a restricted weapon.

If, however, I had a gun that was built so that parts had to be replaced (selector switch or selector plate) to make it fire in auto then I'd be satisfied I was within the law as I see it.

 

As with anything related to airsoft, since there's never been a case brought to trial it's all supposition.

 

*EDIT*

Before we get too caught up in this legal stuff, I should point out that my actual POV on this subject is that sniping, in airsoft, is something you should do because you ENJOY the different challenge compared to an assault role.

In that case, I think I'd always go for a boltie over an AEG simply because they're lighter, simpler (and as a result, more reliable) and they're the correct tool for the job.

 

In many ways the whole "AEG sniper" thing is similar to that thread about whether it was OK to wear sneakers for airsoft. The answer is the same:-

Sure, if you want to do it then go ahead. However, it's not the authentic way to go.

 

Again, it's true that you CAN have an authentic AEG sniper rifle (G3, L86, M14, SR25 etc) but they're big, heavy and noisy compared to a boltie.

[lewis hiscock]

im thinking of modding my m14 to fire semi only for authenticity although it will be at 1j due to my local sites restrictions

[Xaccers]

Just to be really pedantic, the 1.35J relates to air rifle ammo, as in lead pellets, not plastic bbs.

An AEG would have to be shown to be lethal to fall foul of section 5 of the Firearms Act.

There has been no test on airsoft ammo as to what energy level would constitute lethal.

 

Think about it, a 0.2g bb is going to dissapate it's energy much quicker than a .177 pellet, and therefore not penetrate as deep.

 

Consiquently, it is up to the local police force to decide what they consider to be lethal and therefore legal.

In some constabularies they've chosen the 1J limit suggested by the home office, in others it's 1.35J, while arguably more sensible ones have said "Bring us a body and we'll tell you it was lethal"

Until one of the constabularies with a low limit tries to bring someone up on charges which are reliant on whether the gun was lethal or not, don't expect a definitative legal answer.

 

The 1.35J/381fps with a 0.2 limit is a sensible one, and you can be pretty sure if you stay on the lower side of it you're not using a lethal weapon, however where local constabularies have stated higher limits, it should be down to the site owners to decide (after all, it's their insurance policy which has to be adhered to).

 

As stealth said, paintball markers are lethal, they're self loading or pump action (I used to have a pump action - it was wank), yet the CPS has been instructed by the home office not to treat them as breach of the firearms act simply because people don't die when shot with a paintball marker (unless caught badly in the eye...)

[RSM]

Necro post but hopefully brings something constructive.

 

A team mate of mine has a PSG-1 that has only had metal bushings and a Systema 200% spring fitted as well as a custom 10.8v battery. It does 440fps +/- 1fps (Across a 10 shot string). It has a stock barrel and hop yet with digicon .3s he was able to tap me on the shoulder with it at ~60m which we paced out (this was outside at First and Only Urban at the end of the day). This is without having to aim off as the rifle was extensively set up prior to being fielded scope/hop wise. The impacts still had a fair sting to them too and my team mate was fair confident that at that range he could have hit me in the head and that with aiming off the engagement range could have probably been extended to 75m against torsos.

 

Now, this particular team mate happens to be a pretty damn good small bore target shooter so knows his stuff when estimating range, wind speeds/direction and how to take a shot and aim off and is more acquainted with putting a CD sized grouping onto a target 100m away using a .22 target rifle than crawling around in a ghillie. He personally finds it amusing that while he can't use his 440fps semi auto at Urban (despite the claim to having more chance of injury to people due to semi auto rate of fire, the gearbox locks if you try to blat rounds off at more than 1 trigger pull a second), 500fps bolt action users can use their rifles yet despite the FPS and upgrade advantages (tightbores etc) the BA users have, he finds the level of marksmanship ability in most airsoft 'snipers' incredibly lacking missing targets that he manages to engage with an M4.

 

We came to the conclusion that you can be just as effective a 'sniper' with an AEG as you could with a bolt action but a lot of people simply lack the skill to effectively play as one whether it be the ability to 'tune' the rifle/sights (when I got my warrior 1 I think I spent three hours at an outdoor range setting it up until I was happy with it), predict environmental effects on the BB's flight, or simply just sit and wait for an opportunity target.

[CSC Maverick]

I think AEGs are great for DM roles. My TM m16 shoots 375fps with .20s, yet Im nailing targets 5-60 yards no problem(I use .30s). I think it all depends. I have a UTG l96 too. The bolt Snipers advantage is that its QUIET. Sure my Tm doesnt make much noise, but you cant hear that l96 unless your really close to it. A highly upgraded aeg generally won't be good at being quiet. Generally you get about 20 yards more range(pending upgrades), but you only got one shot, pull the bolt back, reset it, one shot. Considering bbs are not the most suitable things for going long distances extremely accurately, Id rather have an AEG, on semi, about to engage at medium to long range, rather than long to extremely long. All depends on what you like really. My 2 cents.

[Trasher]

It does 440fps +/- 1fps (Across a 10 shot string). It has a stock barrel and hop yet with digicon .3s he was able to tap me on the shoulder with it at ~60m which we paced out... could have probably been extended to 75m against torsos.

We have a 430fps limit for full-auto AEGs here and their effective range ends at 60 meters (and I speak about accurately measured distances, not paced). Stock AEG hopups don't handle heavy BBs well, IMO.... For 550-600fps bolt action rifles, effective range is pretty much over at 70-80 meters, mainly because of the BB quality/weight (and wind) factor.

[RSM]

I'm not going to disagree that when aiming for what you intend to hit at 430fps your effective range is 60m but when I use the approximation symbol I'm talking to within 3m. As the only outdoor range I have access to is at the far end of this country it may be some time before I report back but I bet that with a combination of shooter skill and weapon performance I can get this guy to hit a torso sized target at 70m and we'll keep pushing the target back till the ability to effectively hit a torso is lost.

[Hedganian]

As many people seem to forget - the most important part of any shooting equation is the shooter, not the rifle. A top marksman can make shots with a crummy rifle that a poor marksman couldn't make with an expensive, top-of-the-line sniper's rifle.

 

As for semi-auto sniping - there's a reason for it, and a place for it in airsoft, just as in the real world. H&K didn't invent the PSG1 because they thought it looked nice, they did it because there was a call for a semi-automatic sniper's rifle. Bolt-action isn't always the way to go, but in general a bolt-action rifle will be more accurate and less detectable for that single shot than a semi-automatic will.

 

With regard to converting a standard assault rifle to a semi-auto sniper role, well, you could do that. But I'm not sure why you'd want to. It's not going to be as good as the purpose-built sniper-rifles. For example, the Marui PSG1 discharges the BB on squeezing the trigger, then recycles the action to prepare another shot (ie it stores a compressed spring ready to fire), whereas a standard AEG stores an uncompressed spring and when you press the trigger it cycles the piston then discharges. Hence the slight delay in firing an AEG, and the motor noise *could* alert the target. The PSG1 eliminates that possible problem.

 

I'm sure that someone with enough know-how could convert a standard mechbox in order to change the action from cycling then firing to firing first then cycling on trigger-press, but it seems like a lot of effort to go to. With suitable work and upgrades, I'm sure any AEG could achieve performance not much less, if not the same or better, than any bolt-action or semi-automatic airsoft sniper rifle.

 

If you're going for the Designated Marksman role within your squad, then a weapon along the lines of an L86A2 LSW wouldn't be amiss at all. I can't really see another reason why anyone would want a "sniper" version of an assault rifle, though.

 

But each to their own.

[Trasher]

As many people seem to forget - the most important part of any shooting equation is the shooter, not the rifle.

Problem is, in airsoft most rifles are shooting so poorly (compared to low-mid end .177 air rifles), and most BBs are so inconsistent that they're very important part of that equation.

 

I shot 1000 yard rifle (among other things), before started airsofting. There you can shoot decent groups with a slightly modded cheap rifle (like Remington 722), with a cheap scope (like Hakko) but not with cheap ammunition - regardless of the shooter's skills.

 

In airsoft we've crappy ammo, toylike rifles, rubber based hopup systems optimized for anything, but shooting heavy BBs accurately >35m.