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TK hop twist barrels, are they worth it?


my_plague_666

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Now who's being pedantic? :P ... I qualified my 'backdoor' by stating that the whole thing is a complex fluid dynamics issue ...

The imaginary vacuum is an acceptable backdoor when you say that a lighter BB would reach a longer distance in the same time, when the muzzle energy was the same. I never argued against that. I mentioned the AEG because at some point we need to apply these things to the real world, and the vacuum has to go quite quickly when we do that. With actual airsoft guns in our atmosphere and gravity we've found that heavier BBs reach a longer distance compared to light ones, and at long ranges they do it faster as well.

 

The Twist Barrels and LRBs and whatnot may or may not involve complex fluid dynamics. Whatever the theories are, it doesn't matter when we talk about range, because the flight path involves simple physics: When the BB leaves the barrel, it has a direction, velocity and spin. The spin is the most complicated matter, but also the easiest to observe. The velocity we can measure, as well as the consistency of all of these values combined (groupings downrange).

 

The only way to make the BB (of a fixed weight mass) fly further, is to increase the velocity and/or spin, or change the direction (point the weapon higher). The velocity can be measured and the spin can be observed.

 

I'm still missing an explanation from anyone as to how the TK barrel is supposed to increase range. (And I don't mean effective range as a result of improved accuracy.) Even just a solid empirical test would do.

 

-Sale

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I've had great experiences with the twist barrels. My 310 Fps AK length could outrange 400 fps m16s with KM and Prometheus inner barrels. The biggest improvement came in the mp5ks where I was able to hit ranges found on much larger guns at higher fps limits. For Marui gbbs, twist barrels didn't really do much for range, but the "impact" seemed to sting alot more than a regular 9ball,KM, or PDI barrel. For KSC series guns such as the glock series , it helped with range alot.

 

I'm not going to argue the physics of it. It works, as long as you keep in the recomended 330 fps and below range. Ask any tuning shop in Hawaii on the performance and given the low velocity tuning, they will say hop twist is the way to go for maximizing range.

 

Further proof? The forefront of airsoft tuning, Japan, use TK. Shops like Echigoya use the twist barrels in their custom house-tuned guns.

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Further proof? The forefront of airsoft tuning, Japan, use TK. Shops like Echigoya use the twist barrels in their custom house-tuned guns.

 

 

Because the airsoft proletariat attributes magical properties to them. If I had a box of range increasing bolts, I stick them in everything I made and watch the uninformed queu up to buy them.

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If I had a box of range increasing bolts, I stick them in everything I made and watch the uninformed queu up to buy them.

I think I got some screws from the same place.

I fully upgraded a gun and, with these screws fitted, the performance was better than I expected. Obviously, the screws were responsible for this.

 

I'm also considering painting a red stripe along the side of my M14 since it clearly made the A-Team van much more powerful.

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lolerskates.

 

On another topic

 

just because modern physics can not explain something dosen't mean it's not possible. Quantum physics is redefining modern physics on a daily basis.

 

Like when Einstein theorized black holes. Conventional science was like "OMG no wai can there be a black hole in space where gravity is so strong it eats light for breakfast! Lolercat is angry!"

 

For the record, I have had great success with Koba barrels. I can't say I have had magical increases in range or heat seeking bb abilities, but it allowed me to rail on folks from close distance and not feel guilty while not be outgunned from longer distances.

 

Koba twist barrels is one of the most talked about subject, being up there with "what gun am bestest"

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But do you really think TK barrels allow BBs to tap into the misunderstood minutia of existence? This isn't some cutting edge new physics, this is high school. At least, it should be.

 

Einstein also proved his new theory. The 'theory' of BB flight presented up and down this thread is proven...grab a high school physics book. If the TK barrel crowd wants to further physics with the proof of Koba Magic, then I recommend they buy a lab coat and hit their nearest research facility.

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I've had great experiences with the twist barrels. My 310 Fps AK length could outrange 400 fps m16s with KM and Prometheus inner barrels. The biggest improvement came in the mp5ks where I was able to hit ranges found on much larger guns at higher fps limits.

What you're saying is like a ton of feathers weighs more than a ton of bricks. There is no way a 0.9 J gun shoots the same BB further than a 1.5 J gun, when the barrels are level and the hop-up is set to optimum spin on both. It's just physically impossible.

 

For Marui gbbs, twist barrels didn't really do much for range, but the "impact" seemed to sting alot more than a regular 9ball,KM, or PDI barrel. For KSC series guns such as the glock series , it helped with range alot.

A TK barrel provides around stock velocity from a GBB in my experience. The 5.1 Hi-Capa I tried shot 290 fps stock and 290 fps with the TK barrel. But it should sting more than the 6.04-6.01 mm barrels that make the pistol shoot between 310-330 fps? What am I missing here?

 

I'm not going to argue the physics of it. It works, as long as you keep in the recomended 330 fps and below range.

Given that a lot of people have reported actual problems above 1J and I have seen it work properly below 1J, I can't argue against this. It certainly seems to improve accuracy, as long as you stay below 1J.

 

Ask any tuning shop in Hawaii on the performance and given the low velocity tuning, they will say hop twist is the way to go for maximizing range.

"Authority-argument" if I ever saw one. Just like that school teacher who said a kilometer is longer than a mile and expected his pupils to respect his authority.

 

Further proof? The forefront of airsoft tuning, Japan, use TK. Shops like Echigoya use the twist barrels in their custom house-tuned guns.

Another authority-argument. These have no weight in a proper debate.

 

just because modern physics can not explain something dosen't mean it's not possible. Quantum physics is redefining modern physics on a daily basis.

I'm a very practical person, since I'm not academically educated. A gram of empirical evidence is worth more than a kilogram of theory and a ton of authority. In that sense I agree.

 

My "problem" is that I haven't seen a properly made comparison between regular barrels and the twist. The only test I've conducted myself was with pistols from 10 and 20 meters ranges, and I only tested velocity and groupings. Estimates of experiences in the field aren't reliable.

 

-Sale

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Well here's what a former co-worker had to say about it on another board regarding TK barrels. Probably the easiest way to explain it.

 

The rifling in the tanio koba barrel doesn't serve the same purpose as rifling in a real gun. The koba barrel works by spinning the air behind the bb, not by imparting spin on the bb itself. By spinning the air behind the bb, it makes a "pocket" so to speak around the bb, which floats it out to further ranges. And as evo has already said, when properly tuned the tanio koba barrel will out range most 400+ fps guns by a good margin.

 

And TK barrels don't put out the fps like conventional tightbores do. FPS will always be lower when using TK barrels but FPS isn't everything.

 

I'd like to add from personal experience that the effect of a TK barrel in a pistol is different from a TK barrel in an aeg. TK in aeg has the increase in range. TK barrel in gbbs didn't do so much for range as it did for accuracy or "punch".

 

edit:

 

And for all those smart-*albatross* comments responded from my previous post, I was trying to make a point that the leading tuners in the world, Japan, use the TK barrel. It would be wise to copy a similar setup and application if you wanted to utilize the TK barrel to the fullest potential. But if you guys don't want to use it, fine. It's your choices.

 

Some of you have to realize that tuning is better elsewhere in the world and that just because a part doesn't work for you in your application or setup, doesn't meant it won't work for other people. There might be a small chance that you are doing something wrong (if you can see past your egos)

 

TK barrels, like any other part, have varying degrees of success when used in conjunction to other parts. Take in to account the sealing of the gearbox, packing used, FPS, length of the barrel, etc.

 

For me personally, i've seen too many people use TK barrels and have a positive result. All the nay sayers that i've met face to face weren't that great in tuning.

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You realise what you just posted belongs about a third of the way down page 1 of this thread, right?

 

I don't really understand what you mean.

 

As in it was previously discussed? Seems like a never ending arguement to me. Just adding my input.

 

If you're talking about me posting similar results to what you got, I got an all positive. I not any TK gun built that i've seen have witnessed any stray shots.

 

If you mean I shouldn't post, well then, i'm still adding my input regardless.

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Well here's what a former co-worker had to say about it on another board regarding TK barrels. Probably the easiest way to explain it.

 

The rifling in the tanio koba barrel doesn't serve the same purpose as rifling in a real gun. The koba barrel works by spinning the air behind the bb, not by imparting spin on the bb itself. By spinning the air behind the bb, it makes a "pocket" so to speak around the bb, which floats it out to further ranges. And as evo has already said, when properly tuned the tanio koba barrel will out range most 400+ fps guns by a good margin.

It's true that the rifling doesn't engage the BB. You can drop BBs and watch them fall freely through the barrel. I don't think that was the question here.

 

It may spin the air behind the BB in the barrel, but how exactly does this "air pocket" extend over a hundred feet in front of the gun? Because you can barely feel the gush of air 1-2 feet away from the barrel, but the "pocket" would have to follow the BB downrange to protect it from the laws of physics. Namely: Air resistance.

 

And for all those smart-*albatross* comments responded from my previous post,

Calling me a smart-*albatross* now?

 

I was trying to make a point that the leading tuners in the world, Japan, use the TK barrel. It would be wise to copy a similar setup and application if you wanted to utilize the TK barrel to the fullest potential. But if you guys don't want to use it, fine. It's your choices.

Another authority-argument.

 

You're forgetting that we've already tried it, and found that it doesn't provide an advantage over regular tightbore barrels. It's just another precision barrel you can use.

 

Some of you have to realize that tuning is better elsewhere in the world

Quite respected AEG tuning guides were talking about "gear timing" ten years ago. Didn't stop the myth from getting debunked. People also used to swear by long barrels. We're getting somewhere with that.

 

All due respect to Tanio Kobayashi and other pioneers of Airsoft development, but you have to make a difference between bowing and bending over.

 

and that just because a part doesn't work for you in your application or setup, doesn't meant it won't work for other people. There might be a small chance that you are doing something wrong

Of course the AEG and any airsoft gun works as a whole. The problem isn't that we are getting poor results: The FPS is consistent and the accuracy was good for me. Not better or worse than with other precision barrels I tried.

 

The only thing I'm questioning is this magical increase in range, which to my current understanding is utter nonsense without empirical or theoretical proof. As far as I can tell, it's just a placebo effect of people believing in "Koba Magic".

 

(if you can see past your egos)

So I'm a smart-*albatross* with an ego now? Have you been talking to my boss or girlfriend? :D

 

TK barrels, like any other part, have varying degrees of success when used in conjunction to other parts. Take in to account the sealing of the gearbox, packing used, FPS, length of the barrel, etc.

Goes for any upgrade part.

 

For me personally, i've seen too many people use TK barrels and have a positive result. All the nay sayers that i've met face to face weren't that great in tuning.

So you have to be a top tuner with special skills and just the right parts and tuning to achieve good results, yet you've seen lots of people pull that off simply by using a TK barrel? I've only been told that the AEG should be below 1J to achieve good results. Are there other parts do you need to use to invoke the Koba Magic Spirit to carry the BB further?

 

I really must suck in tuning. :(

 

Seems like a never ending arguement to me. Just adding my input.

 

If you mean I shouldn't post, well then, i'm still adding my input regardless.

Your input consists of things we already know, misinterpretations of what we said, some authority arguments and an argumentum ad hominem in every other paragraph. And you wonder why the argument won't end?

 

You are free to write here, but this smart-*albatross* with a big ego and no skill in tuning will continue to tear this kind of posts apart. Apart from being a smart-*albatross*, I'm also very stubborn.

 

-Sale

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So you have to be a top tuner with special skills and just the right parts and tuning to achieve good results, yet you've seen lots of people pull that off simply by using a TK barrel? I've only been told that the AEG should be below 1J to achieve good results. Are there other parts do you need to use to invoke the Koba Magic Spirit to carry the BB further?

 

I really must suck in tuning. sad.gif

 

I'm saying that top tuners and people who dropped in TK barrels alike have had great success with it. If the nay sayers can't get it to work and yet so many other people can, then obviously they are doing something wrong.

 

Calling me a smart-*albatross* now?

 

Yes, along with anyone else who says putting magical screws and a red stripe will increase performance.

 

The only thing I'm questioning is this magical increase in range, which to my current understanding is utter nonsense without empirical or theoretical proof. As far as I can tell, it's just a placebo effect of people believing in "Koba Magic".

 

I say if it works, then keep it. If you find something better, then go with it. You should email Koba himself to get an answer. Or maybe ask an expert. Other than that, why are you asking the average joes on a forum? Who cares really how it works if it works for you.

 

Your input consists of things we already know, misinterpretations of what we said, some authority arguments and an argumentum ad hominem in every other paragraph. And you wonder why the argument won't end?

 

I will admit, I didn't read the full thread all the way. That was my mistake, but then again, I have life past this forum. Authority arguements? How can you argue that Japanese tuning isn't the best? I guess if you haven't seen it, it is hard to believe. I've seen guys in the CONUS who think they can tune but when they see Japanese or Hawaii tuned guns, they think somehow it's cheating the chrono. Somehow my TM benelli outranged alot of aegs out at Lion Claws. Hmm, must be some of that Hawaii magic. Nope, it's called great tuning.

 

If it sounds like I am kissing the *albartroth* of the Japanese, it's because they rightfully are the forefront and authority

 

As for why the arguement won't end, well see the words out of your own mouth below.

 

Apart from being a smart-*albatross*, I'm also very stubborn.

From the man himself. Yea, I understand alot of people on here are stubborn. Idiots will be idiots and if they want to use sub-par performing guns, that's fine with me. It just means that many people have the disadvantage in that area.

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It is a never ending argument.

 

Ive had great success with TK barrels but i dont really recommend them to many people simply because of the price.

 

In the end we are just shooting 6 mm bb's at each other and .00025 tighter groupings simply dont matter to me.

 

The increased price is also another turn off for many people.

 

Like i said before, its all about personal preference. Buy the god damned barrel, give it a try, see for yourself whether or not its worth it. Physics be damned, if it works well just use it.

 

Sometimes you just cant determine what is best through qualitative findings on message boards.

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It is a never ending argument.

 

Ive had great success with TK barrels but i dont really recommend them to many people simply because of the price.

 

In the end we are just shooting 6 mm bb's at each other and .00025 tighter groupings simply dont matter to me.

 

The increased price is also another turn off for many people.

 

Like i said before, its all about personal preference. Buy the god damned barrel, give it a try, see for yourself whether or not its worth it. Physics be damned, if it works well just use it.

 

Sometimes you just cant determine what is best through qualitative findings.

 

Quoted for truth.

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I stumbled across this topic and I think I've read enough bull dung already.

 

I've always wondered what caused the increased range and the increased accuracy of the hop twist barrels. I've come up with a few theories of my own.

 

Ok, I understand how the rifling of a bullet in a real gun works. The spiral tightens the bullet because it causes the pressure on the bullet to push it at all angles at the same time causing it to tighten the trajectory and follow a straight path.

 

This is a similar effect on a football (the American ones, not the "soccer" ones). As a quarterback throws the ball (assuming with his right hand), he releases the ball and puts a spin on the rear, right side of the ball. This allows the ball to cut through the air with a tighter, non wobbly trajectory. If his release isn't perfect, it causes the ball to fly through the air making small spiral wobbles instead of keeping a tight, straight line. The small spiral wobbles can cause the ball to sometimes be less accurate.

 

Now lets think about airsoft. There are two things that differ in airsoft, 1. a normal hop up works by putting pressure on the top of the bb as it rolls through the barrel causing backspin allowing distance. And 2. the projectile is a spherical object

 

So the question is, how would one go about making a spherical object have an axis of rotation with the poles on the front and back of the bb in relation to the target?

 

In airsoft, the spherical object, if put in a spiral wouldn't actually go very far. It is the backspin that is necessary also to give it distance. Enter the TK hop twist barrel.

 

My theory is that the hop twist barrel grooves causes the bb to spiral while the hop causes the bb to back tumble. The grooves in the barrel in conjunction with the hop puts the rotation axis somewhere in between that of a perfect spiral (forward and backward poles) and perfect backspin (left and right poles). i mean, think about it, how else would you put a spiral on the BB? you can't put a rubber on the sides because that would just cause the bb to have an axis of rotation that is up and down, not forward and backward.

 

What evidence do I have to think this? Well have you ever tried putting hop twist barrels in guns that are too hot? If you notice the flight of the bb, it is a really large spiral. Where it start to go up then hook up and right, then hook right and finally down and down left.

 

In koba twist barrels, the perfect balance of back spin and spiral need to be achieved or else nothing good will come of it... and this is where good tuning comes into play.

 

And along this same line of thought, I think that the reason why TK twist barrels don’t work at certain velocities is because the barrel wasn't designed to do certain things like handle a higher velocity. I think if the velocity was higher, TK would have to design a barrel with a different number of twists per given length. But why would they want to design a barrel for high velocity when most of their business is in Japan where the limit is 1J?

 

So is it worthwhile?

 

for low tuning applications, yes. Like GBBs, mp5ks, and field limit regulations.

 

For anything else, no because you can do just as good if you up the FPS because you can make up for a lack of range by increasing the power (to a certain point).

 

Power is good for only a few things, hurting people, getting your bb there faster, lack of good tuning, and showing who has a longer schlong.

 

if you don't agree with my theory, then PROVE me wrong. It's way too easy to point out that i'm wrong without Evidence.

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While I'm waiting for a glass-filled PUR casting to gel and harden...

 

Some of us just wanted a definitive answer about the TK barrels OR a consensus. Perhaps this is wishful thinking on our part.

 

What I've seen here and a on couple of other forums so far is a toss-up. Some people have seen it work pretty reliably as long as the muzzle velocity stays under 328 fps (or thereabouts). Other people felt their testing didn't produce results that make the barrel any better or worse than a nice tightbore. Then there are those who think the TK barrel is a gimmick or a sham.

 

I feel the divisive exchanges about the product amount to one thing: if the curious want to know if the TK barrel will work for them, then they should invest in one, tune their AEG accordingly, and find out on their own.

 

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I am going to do this and I will certainly post my own experiences.

 

Anyone else who wants to know and has the money to spare or a charitable friend should do the same IMHO.

 

:)

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I feel the divisive exchanges about the product amount to one thing: if the curious want to know if the TK barrel will work for them, then they should invest in one, tune their AEG accordingly, and find out on their own.

The funny thing is that both I and Stealthbomber have been there and done that. I reported an incredibly accurate GBB earlier in this thread, and there are lots of people who have seen an improvement in accuracy after installing one. I fully support the statement that it works when it's tuned properly. Here's how it goes:

 

1) Keep to 1J or below

2) Install and tune properly

3) -> It improves accuracy.

 

The only bone to pick here is the dumb-founded belief that it magically extends your range somehow. Not only would it be superior compared to other type barrels shooting at the same velocity, but that it would outrange guns with a significantly higher muzzle energy. When this belief is questioned, the sceptics are attacked with insults and other low arguments, but zero solid evidence.

 

I'm saying that top tuners and people who dropped in TK barrels alike have had great success with it. If the nay sayers can't get it to work and yet so many other people can, then obviously they are doing something wrong.

When did I say that the TK barrel doesn't work? I believe I said quite a few times that it does improve accuracy. In English: It does work.

 

What it doesn't do is make the BB fly further. This phenomena is yet to be proven even with an empirical test. Not to mention that the laws of physics are against this.

 

You should email Koba himself to get an answer. Or maybe ask an expert. Other than that, why are you asking the average joes on a forum? Who cares really how it works if it works for you.

We got the answer from Koba years ago already. His explanation was pretty much "Koba Magic". Actually, I'm fine with the lack of a proper theory, because I've seen the improvement in accuracy. I'm not questioning that.

 

I'm asking the average joes because you are the "believers" who say it not only improves accuracy, but somehow extends the range as well.

 

I will admit, I didn't read the full thread all the way. That was my mistake, but then again, I have life past this forum.

And those of us who do read the whole thread before posting don't have lives. Thank you, we all know already that you're above us.

 

Authority arguements? How can you argue that Japanese tuning isn't the best?

You seem to have trouble understanding what "authority argument" means. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_authority

 

In short, I'm not saying Japanese tuners aren't experts.

 

Has any expert from Hawaii or Japan actually even said that the Hop-Twist barrels make the BB float for a longer distance? These tuners could be using the Hop-Twist Barrels simply because they have found them to be the most accurate. Or the tune-up shops could be using Hop-Twist Barrels for commercial reasons.

 

As for why the arguement won't end, well see the words out of your own mouth below.

 

Yea, I understand alot of people on here are stubborn. Idiots will be idiots and if they want to use sub-par performing guns, that's fine with me. It just means that many people have the disadvantage in that area.

This reminds more and more of an argument with a religious person: I refuse to believe something you can't prove, so you start calling names and hide behind a higher authority. The final touch is the horror-story of having a sub-par performing gun, just like fundies tell me I'm going to hell.

 

Quite hilarious actually.

 

-Sale

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The other thing is that very few people have the funds or motivation to deliberately buy 3 or more barrels for the same gun and compare then directly.

 

This whole "fit a TK barrel and tune your gun properly and you'll see an improvement" strikes me as similar to saying "take this pill then go to bed for two days and the pill will cure your cold".

How do you know the same amount of tuning wouldn't have yielded better results if you'd fitted a Prom' 6.03 instead?

 

I dunno about Sale but I was kinda lucky because I've been asked to build 2 G3s identical to my own. As a result I took the opportunity to buy different barrels for each gun. One got a Systema 6.04, the other got a TK twist barrel and mine got a Prom' 6.03. Added to that there was, of course, the original TM barrel originally in each gun.

 

I carried out a bunch of tests using these barrels a while back (there's a post here somewhere about it) and, I gotta say, I wasn't at all impressed by the TK barrel.

 

At the time I wouldn't have EVER recommended the use of a TK barrel.

 

After that I saw the G17 pistol which DEFINITELY seemed to be able to hit things at greater range than mine, despite mine having 15fps greater velocity and a standard barrel.

 

If there IS any "Koba magic" I think it's in the ability of the barrel to create greater accuracy in shorter barrels.

 

Pure speculation but I wonder if a TK barrel is better suited to short-barreled guns such as pistols, MP5s and P90s and, once you get to longer barrels, the BB starts to bounce along the grooves inside the barrel rather than remaining in the middle?

 

Anyway, I have a project under way and my plan IS to buy a chinese 6.04 barrel, a Prom' 6.03 and a TK barrel for the same gun and make a direct comparison between all of them.

 

Ultimately, of course, what you'd need to do would be to to obtain an MP5k, P90, MC51, AK47, M14, AUG and PSG1 then tune each one to 1J, test fire it, fit a TK barrel, test fire it again, fit a Prom' barrel, test fire it again and see if there were any trends showing 1) whether the TK barrel is better than the stock one, 2) whether the performance of the TK barrel changed dependent on barrel length and 3) which of the 3 barrels was ultimately better in each gun.

 

Frankly, unless a shop wants to supply me with the guns & barrels and pay me a weeks wages, life's too short to think about this.

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Worse than that is the fact that the different barrels may give different fps's on the same gun. To make a fair 'barrel test' the fps would have to be adjusted to ensure consistency!

That's what Stealthbomber did.

 

What I did was I swapped a Prometheus 6.03, PDI 6.01 and a TK 6.04 mm inner barrel in a box stock 5.1 Hi-Capa, and also recorded velocities and groupings with all four setups. If the pistol is shooting 290 or 300 or 310 fps, I think it's fair enough for the grouping test that each barrel is shooting consistently.

 

It never even crossed my mind to test the flight path of the BB, because theory dictates that the barrel can not affect it. I just might do the test anyways, as it seems that there's a myth waiting to be debunked.

 

In the meantime, here's some solid scientific data about the flight path of BBs: http://www.cybersloth.org/airsoft/trajectory/

 

I'm trying to imagine this guy having to rewrite everything to match the belief that a Hop-Twist barrel extends the trajectory of a BB. In theory it doesn't, and I haven't seen a practical test to show the difference either. Just the word of the believers is what I'm expected to accept. Because I question things, I'm a smart-*albatross* with an ego, blasphemer of Japanese tuning-gods, and an idiot whose 400 fps AEG is doomed to have a shorter range than the 310 fps AEG of someone who is pure in heart.

 

For an atheist/agnostic I'm very tolerant about various religions and superstitious beliefs, but I draw the line somewhere.

 

-Sale

 

P.S. Stealthbomber, the KSC Glock series have a very finicky hop-up system, so it could very well explain why one pistol outranged the other. In your latest post you said that the one with a Hop-Twist barrel was able to hit targets at a greater range. But did you compare the trajectory, ignoring groupings?

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