Celcius PTW

[sheptr]

Well, to those who have already purchased a PTW, surely the fun you got out of it until now was worth the price difference?

 

For example, new video game comes out, retailing at $60. I buy the game when it comes out. 2 years later the cost is down to $20. Was having the game 2 years earlier worth the extra $40 I paid?

 

I'm sure it's a flawed example because it is off by a scale of 25, but I think the argument still holds.

[slo_one]

welcome to capitalism, hope you enjoy your stay.....

must say, watching all the crowing PTW owners cry thier eyes out and curse themseles is amusing... hey, at the end of the day, its not systema's market by right.... they have a competitor now... lets see if they compete or throw a tizzy ala Colt...

 

No competition implies doing your own r & d. As I've always believed clones are like bootleg cds and dvds you buy at the swap meet. They are theft of someone's intellectual property.

Of course this makes me a hypocrite because damn I want that JG poseidon rifle.

[Shinden]

Well the price isn't the fact why I am uncomfortable. In fact any PTW users would've wished the base MSRP was much cheaper. The fact remains that the PTW clone pictures looks pretty iffy and who knows if it will work just as great or has more faults. And if they were to sell more magazines, Systema will likely halt productions again due to them losing money to Celcius and loosing potential customers (I'm sure they did already in the past). However another point remains that many of the people who are likely to jump on the bandwagon believe it is some holygrail because they expect it to be near performance and feel of the Systema PTW. In reality, even the Systema PTW still lacks in some areas so who knows what else the Celsius will lack and people start complaining again. Bottom line, this is a clone. There will be a good chance of lemons.

[Mosati]

I'm sure there will be build quality discrepancies, and hopefully this means systema will improve their product and lower prices.

 

Cant ignore more plentiful mags either.

[tome]

Tome whats to stop them buying loads of cheap ptw clone mags.....

 

Nothing really (except hard earned cash), but you would still have to reload three times as often and carry three time the amount of mags. Not to mention you have to buy three times the number of mags to begin with. Somehow as the AEG itself is 500 usd i don't imagine the mags will be cheap compared to existing high-caps.

 

What you're saying is what was said when the M249 clones came out. "OMGzzzorss N00bzoor all over the shop with all equiped with m249zzzors"....... hasn't happen yet because the m249 is still "expensive" and also it's just impractical. Much like paying 500usd for a clone and carrying more than 20 mags

[sturgis]

apologies for tearing the house down comment wich seems to have stirred up something... there should have been a " " after that

 

stealth, thing is, this is just what happens in a competitive market, like guzzi said, it happen to cars, it happened electronics, the list goes on... tis the way it is...

Don't get me wrong, it's not that i'm sympathetic, i'm in the same boat with the upcoming clone 556, it's just that in todays airsoftmarket, i was expecting this to happen when i bought mine... was just matter of time.

We just have to accept that unfortunatly.

[Glenn]

How was it like when CA started making their own AEGs? Was it all crazy like this?

 

It wasn't nearly so bad. CA was making flat out bad guns when they started, and people really just seemed overjoyed at being able to buy a metal stock gun.

 

 

As for these PTWs, I sure hope they're nice. If they are, I may find myself going over the the darkside and building a ARFCOMed, HSLD type M4.

[Shinden]

lol about the car things, in fact at least Japan don't clone American cars, they make cars and improve cars. Compared to China, they do have many knockoff copies of many American and European cars too so technically, Japan is not cloning cars compared to how China is cloning cars. They can't even bring thier cars to America due to poor safety standards and materials too. Same concept applies for airsoft too.

[Stealthbomber]

stealth, thing is, this is just what happens in a competitive market, like guzzi said, it happen to cars, it happened electronics, the list goes on... tis the way it is...

Do you drive a chinese car?

 

Beyond that, Japanese cars were terrible through the 60's, 70's and most of the 80's.

Even so, they managed to wipe out most of the british car industry and create a situation where, as a whole, car companies produce mass-market generic junk designed to appeal to the largest demographic.

Vast numbers of small, niche-market, cars have closed down because they simply lack the ability to achieve the same market penetration as the giants producing generic junk.

 

Or, to put it in airsoft terms, how long will companies like Shooters Design last once the chinese start copying their stuff?

 

Let's face it, a lot of us talk the talk but, when it comes down to it, very few of us walk the walk. Go check out the WGC website. It's always the cheap stuff they sell out of first.

[sheptr]

Or, to put it in airsoft terms, how long will companies like Shooters Design last once the chinese start copying their stuff?

 

 

If the Chinese can produce products that are the same quality as the Shooters Design products, and continue to innovate, as they have shown flashes of, why does it matter who makes it?

 

Doesn't matter to me.

 

 

If anything, this might help force the traditional companies to produce better products. Might help Systema realize they have to come up with something really groundbreaking once again, as the PTW was when it was released.

[Shinden]

sheptr,

 

If a Chinese company clones an item and that cloned item sells too well, the original company will lose it's customers, which means money to them. Thus no money means they can't afford to fund in R&D to make new products to compete with the clone companies unless they are going to take a risk *(a risk that won't last anyways resulting in the company going bankrupt) , so the ideal of having a clone company to put competition to the major companies won't necessarly benefit them, as instead it will just slowly eat them away. You have to understand this, it's not like you have your own company.

 

Think of it in your own position, pretend you only like have $10,000.00 to spend on materials, R&D, molds, machinery, and workers and you develop your own product, but a new chinese company clones your product without hesistant and that sells more better. In the end you are forced to think of another product to combat the cloned product to help get your own clients back into buying your product. Then the clone company copies that new product and you cannot even sell your own product. So what do you do with a company that cannot even sell his own products? You end up shutting down the company. Thus a lot of clone companies lack a R&D section as they only know how to mostly clone products so they look onto other companies making parts or guns that they can manage to copy and produce until they start becoming a larger company. Then again Airsoft is illegal in China as it's underground so that's not going to happen.

 

So why does it matter to buy a clone product if they are the same quality as the original companies products as you say? What I can say is mostly is that it is because the original companies can still produce more new items rather recycling products made by other companies in China. So it's also a form of support.

[The Crunchy Bunny]

The only good I could see coming out of this would be cheap mags.

[sturgis]

Actually, i drive a Volvo...

 

I'm not claiming to walk any walk, hell i got chinese airsoft stuff here, if it fits the purpose for what i need/want it for, and i can get it cheaper,why not, right? doesn't mean i automaticly go for the cheapest stuff though... (edit: actually me buying a 556 kit, is directly helping GWS with the cost of R&D for a Sig 550 sniper, or something, or so they claim, so whathave you done for the airsoftcommunity, in terms of new guns, lately j/k )

 

though i aggree with you on the shooters design example, however i believe they will survive just fine because of their quality vs the cheap stuff... i have 3 SD slides on my WAs, and i would never contemplate getting a chinese slide for a WA if they would ever make one... i believe they cater to different crowds anyways.

 

Not saying that it won't affect the big boys, or that i won't happen down the line, i don't know, and we'll have to see how it will turn out in the end. imho, it's to far gone to try and "stop it" anyways...

 

[/bACK ON TOPIC]

It will be intresting to see how truly compatible it is with the PTW though....

[Chris North]

I hate to be the one that points this out this time, but we go through this every time something really different looks like it might be cloned.

 

Most of the people who are "hating" are being hypocritical, using the same argument that's been used over and over, while others defend the whole cloning thing with the same counter argument that has been since the very first clones argument began.

 

And yes, I'm probably only mentioning this because subconsciously I feel I'm doing DarkLite a favor.

[Sonny]

Im hoping the same thing that happened with Classic Army's m249 price when A&K released a clone of it will occur. Maybe Systema will lower their price to appeal to some of us who rather have the PTW instead of a clone.

[birchm]

I'm always surprised seeing threads like these with people defending cloning by bringing up capitalism. One of the most important aspects of capitalism, and indeed an aspect instrumental in its development, is well maintained property rights.

 

As to the Japan argument, perhaps you guys should point out that Japan was probably coming off of a world war that decimated its production capabilities and their industries were allowed to play catch-up by copying western designs in part to strengthen the country and have it act as an anti-communist stepping stone for the West in Asia. It is hardly an appropriate analogy for a niche toy industry in a country that has questionable intellectual property enforcement.

 

But whatever, hooray for cheap PTWs, and we'll get even more posts in news threads for high end or limited edition airsoft guns that read something like this: "Looks awesome, I'll wait until it's cloned."

[QQexDERA]

Lets hope they havent copied it *too* well....

 

Out of 5 PTW owners I personally know, four of them have $1000 paperweights at the moment (yes, its the motor problem!). Oh well, if they did copy it *exactly* at least you can have two paperweights for the same money

[UrPeaceKeeper]

I'm just going to use an example that is very broad and I hope I dont offend anyone.

 

Take for instance Walmart. In the US Walmart is not exactly what I would consider the greatest place to shop for products like clothing and threads and yarn and what not. The only time I'd ever be caught dead in Walmart is if I knew what I wanted and it was a name brand (like OldSpice for instance). Basically what I'm saying is those who want Quality will go buy Quality, those who want cheap will go to Walmart, get what they get, when it breaks/burns/ w/e they will go and get another because chances are it will last a decent amount of time.

 

Similiarly in Airsoft, those of us who have played pre cloning understand that there is a tree of a manufacturer's quality of guns. So we recognize that an Echo1/JG G36C, while a good performer and good for the value, does not necessarily hold up as well as a CA, Star or TM versions of the gun in terms of build quality etc. Those who do buy them as their first gun are obviously not going to be bothered by it because they dont know the better quality per se and if it breaks they can buy another and it will still be under the cost of the CA/Star/TM. That is how I see clones anyways, if I want something cheap to work on I get a clone, or if I want a rental I get a clone, if I want a gun I'll actually use often I'll go with quality. (besides no gun comes through me without getting some form of upgrade which normally involves gutting the gun, so that only leaves build quality left!)

 

As for this, this is interesting, I more or less want to see if their gear system could be modified to fit into our airsoft guns (either by scaling or w/e) because Planetary gearsets show some signifigant improvements over spur cut gears like we have. The electronics dont intrest me at all, I've played around with an SW-Comp before, it's practically teh same thing bar the anti dry firing thing but meh I'll live

[Stealthbomber]

If the Chinese can produce products that are the same quality as the Shooters Design products, and continue to innovate, as they have shown flashes of, why does it matter who makes it?

You're gonna have to clarify just what innovating the chines companies have done.

AFAIK, the ONLYT innovating a chinese company has done is the F2000 gearbox.

Please tell me if you are aware of any other examples of chinese innovation.

[yubbermax]

The inaccurate JLS SCAR.

[uscmCorps]

On the plus side, at least Systema have other products to lean on like their MP5 PTW, and Revolution Gear box.

 

As for cheaper mags for the M4 PTW... that has been in the works for a while. Can't say more beyond that. But it'll happen.

 

[sheptr]

Shinden:

 

I will agree that if the clones outsell the original product, it is bad for the company that originally designed the product.

 

I think the key is what UrPeaceKeeper's mentioned, the quality of said product.

 

I own both Chinese airsoft and Marui guns. I'm all about bang for my buck. I cut corners where I can; on my limited budget I have to. As it stands, my chinese AEG just melted its battery and probably most of its electrical system, so I've fallen victim to it. But that is the risk I take buying a lesser quality product.

 

My TM DE is still shooting wonderfully, and I expect it to. It is a quality product, and I'm very happy with it.

 

 

As it stands, I'm looking at buying a higher quality AEG, from a reputable company. I want the kind of quality that a brand name will give me. I don't feel like spending 30 hours trying to work all the bugs out of a new rifle.

 

But I wouldn't have even come into the game without a Chinese AEG for my first gun, depriving the original Japanese companies the cash I've spent already, and will be spending with them in the future.

 

Basically, as long as the original companies retain their high quality, people (including el cheapo me!) will pay a premium for their products. But if they turn out overpriced, low quality stuff, they will suffer in the end.

 

 

Stealth: IIRC they've also had another AEP out before its Marui counterpart hit market. Also, while not a big one, they've produced umpteen metal bodies with assorted trademarks, I'm willing to bet didn't exist, and the two aforementioned JLS AEGs. Point is, they have done it before.

[snorkelman]

sorry but unless we want a market strictly marui (and to an extent systema) then the rest are no better

 

when it comes to AEGs and AEPs I couldnt give a hoot if its CA ICS VFC G&G they've all diped their toe in copying and developing marui core internal designs too (which themselves rip of real steel manufacs in terms of the externals) even companies putting out tight bore barrels and metal kits are doing so on the back of marui R&D (hell systemas PTW itself was partially borne of their own treading too close to marui designs and marui toes in the past and the need to develop somethign that didnt run afoul of marui patents in the japanese home market as much as any desire to go one better)

 

cry me a river I dont owe anyone a living Thats particularly true when it comes to inward looking japanese companies Folks can bang on about intellectual property rights all they like (and chinese lack of enforcement) but truth of the matter is most of this stuff would be perfectly legal to duplicate anywhere outside of Japan (real steel aspects aside) as marui never bothered their *albartroth* getting international patents in the first place.

 

course those who only own marui kit and are typing their forum messages on *IBM* PCs with IBM licenced BIOSes (rather than clones) can feel free to continue to stay on their high horses - they at least could be said to have walked the walk and talked the talk The rest of us arent in any sort of position to start creating a pecking order of acceptable cloning.

[tweaked_tim]

Know I do not know what to spend 500 on now, a SAW or one of these.

[Stealthbomber]

course those who only own marui kit and are typing their forum messages on *IBM* PCs with IBM licenced BIOSes (rather than clones) can feel free to continue to stay on their high horses - they at least could be said to have walked the walk and talked the talk The rest of us arent in any sort of position to start creating a pecking order of acceptable cloning.

The point I was addressing was to do with the "Companies like Systema will be OK as long as they continue to make high quality products".

No they won't.

As you say, most people don't care where an item originated. As a rule, if we have the choice of a cheap item and an expensive one, we'll buy the cheap one first and, if it's junk, we'll then buy the expensive one.

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm just as bad. I'm currently looking for a particular hicapa frame and the only one suitable is made by Shooters Design for $250. If there was a chinese copy available for $20, I'd have ordered it already.

Get the 2 parts in the same room together and I'm sure anybody could see how the SD item is superior.

Do I care? Nope. As long as the chinese one goes on my gun, looks okay and works okay, I'm sold.

 

I think the same applies to stuff like AEGs.

I think there are some people who don't know any better and there are some people who do know better but buy a chinese gun and think "okay, it aint great but it's good enough".

These people aren't buying chinese guns and then saying "Gosh, this isn't the same quality as a G&P or VFC gun so I'd better buy that gun as well!".

 

I know I always seem to find myself defending japanese guns and, TBH, that is NOT my POV. As I say, I'm the same as anybody. If there's a cheap chinese part that does what I need, I'll buy it.

It just seems that a lot of people seem to assume buying chinese parts is a "victimless crime" and that companies like Systema will continue to thrive even though a chinese company is stealing a large lump of their market.

 

Like I say, I don't particularly have a problem with people buying the chinese stuff. I just think it's a bit silly for people to deny that buying these items IS harming the jap' companies.