Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

raito

Celcius PTW

Recommended Posts

Of course its bad. Me buying a Dboys RK02 could put VFC in a tougher position. If Dboys started to copy all of VFC's line, I don't think VFC will be that motivated to do much more for much less than their expected profits. Of course this is a different issue because people still buy VFC more than they do Dboys... for now.

 

But yea... shame on me and my cheapsoft. :(

 

 

But whatever, hooray for cheap PTWs, and we'll get even more posts in news threads for high end or limited edition airsoft guns that read something like this: "Looks awesome, I'll wait until it's cloned." <_<

 

The WA M4 looks awesome with its intense recoil. I think I'll wait for it to be released and then wait for a clone. ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Stealth, you're right. There is no way the higher end companies aren't affected by cloners. Look at CA. They came out with their Sportsline to try and combat the clones. While I can imagine Systema fixing current flaws in their M4 PTWs, I can't imagine them dropping the price. Doing so would be a slap in the face of all the current PTW owners out there. And going the Sportsline route for the PTW is highly unlikely as they've been touting their product as a "Professional Training Weapon"... not a toy. Systema fixing the flaws ... maybe. Systema lowering the price ... unlikely.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lets face it if opening up a PTW VFC or Guarder package presented you with perfection in details materials finish and the precision of a swiss watch then a top dollar price tag would be justified and their high end niche section of the market would be pretty much maintainable, given the low end cheap stuff would be penetrating a market segment they never had any aspiration of selling into.

 

The chickens only come home to roost when that high price tag isn't fully justified by whats in the box, and when their desired market segment starts deciding that the compromises that come with clones are outweighed and sufficiently sweetened by the difference in price.

 

The chinese have production facilities that the high end japanese manufacs cant compete with and are showing a much more aggressive appetite for churning out a variety of guns. The only saving grace for the japanese manufacs at the moment is that by and large they're content with concentrating on churning out relatively low end cheap n cheerful stuff. If and when they decide to start tackling the 300 dollar segment then its game over for the Japanese as far as Im concerned - real sword shows what the chinese can produce when they put their mind to it and give themselves a meaningful RRP further moves into that segment of the market are going to leave the japanese without the quality card they've been able to waive in the face of the current clones.

 

in saying that as far as the current systema clone goes we're all presuposing two things

 

1 that it does exist and isnt just a localised april fool that got announced a week or so ago and has now slipped over into international attention

2 that systemas patents are as Japanese centric and shortsighted vis a vis international sales as maruis ones were

 

either of those could make a clone PTW academic outside of mainland china and some backstreet markets

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Stealth, you're right. There is no way the higher end companies aren't affected by cloners. Look at CA. They came out with their Sportsline to try and combat the clones.

 

except CA are cloners..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeah, I've never really understood the notion that just because CA charges the same price as Marui that they're somehow less guilty of cloning compared to other companies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Yeah, I've never really understood the notion that just because CA charges the same price as Marui that they're somehow less guilty of cloning compared to other companies.

They're not.

 

However, by selling guns with apparently superior specification, for a price slightly higher than the gun they copied, an economic status quo is maintained.

 

Surely you can understand how that is different?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I understand how they get away with selling their product, but I commonly see people acting as if they're somehow above the other clone companies. They're not. The fact is that they took another company's design, copied it and slightly tweaked it, threw their name on it, and started making money. Which is the exact same thing companies like DBOY, JG, or CYMA or doing. I'm just saying it's somewhat hypocritical to be okay with Classic Army but not other clones simply because CA charges as much as the guns they copied.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Badger's interested to see where this leads, IF companies like SYSTEMA and TM go out of business, then another company will be forced to pay the R&D costs to make new models. This company will make money for a while until its cloned. He can see this cycle going on for a while. But yeah, PTW clones FTW!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
They're not.

 

However, by selling guns with apparently superior specification, for a price slightly higher than the gun they copied, an economic status quo is maintained.

 

Surely you can understand how that is different?

 

 

by eventually getting round to selling guns with an apparently higher spec for a slightly higher price.. their original efforts were ###### poor. The only real difference is where in their development cycle each sector is at while folks do their comparisons.

 

Real sword is a chinese clone company - even if most folks wont refer to them as such for no other reason than they're products meet or exceed the quality of their competitors in the mainstream end of the market and their prices are at that end too. So if we want to point out a non FN2000 mechbox then type 97's gearbox is a unique in house produced chinese clone gearbox too

 

Granted the chinese might content themselves with the stuff they're putting out at the moment (andmight even move over to producing musical toilet seats instead) but I honestly dont think so. I see it more of a confidence issue where the learning curve is more related to getting a handle on the size of the market, its longevity and what higher price points will be tolerated, rather than the engineering and QC requirements of making the things.

 

as far as chinese manufacs are concerned we've had them go thru springers, plastic gearboxed AEGs (where most of the metal was the screws holding them together) plastic bodied guns like the 028 and the latest moves onto pot metal and steel based guns. Each development has been a couple of times the speed of the former.

 

Yes by and large these have been clones of existing designs but we shouldnt read too much into that - when you're playing catch up you may as well clone, particularly when you're dealing with a market where theres a big advantage in retaining parts compatibility with the established players, never mind one where the major manufacs have already covered most of the common variants you'ld be looking to produce and roll out the door first.

 

Simply because you take that approach of cloning whats out there to get up to speed in terms of model line up, doesn't equate to a lack of ability - the skillset and tooling requirements of creating a clone are a lot closer to making your own unique items than a lot of folks tend to give credit for. There is no oompaloompa duplicating machine you can just drop existing airsoft guns into. Even with a marui sat in front of you you still have to calculate shrinkage etc to ensure that the mould you make produces a part of X dimensions based on the materials your casting etc. All the marui provides you with is the final dimensions you need to hit once your part comes out of the mould or press tooling. It tells you bugger all in and of itself about the dimensions of the moulds etc you have to produce in order to make it.

 

Truth is very few companies start off making high quality products unless theres a particular reason to do so - Real sword and VFC both have relatively small production facilities for airsoft stuff which meant aiming for higher end products was the best approach for them.

 

Other chinese cloners have a mass production background which means the initial aproach is going to lean towards volume over quality. However as they mature and gain that confidence in the market I'm pretty sure dboys cyma etc will begin to implement higher QC and be a bit more fussy over fit and finish - especially if they feel the market will compensate them for that effort in allowing a slightly higher product price to absorb it.

 

Same goes for inovation - the issue isnt skill or capability given that airsoft guns arent rocket science. The issue is simply perceived need. If the chinese feel that they can shift enough units of X to be worth their while, theres nothing from a tech point of view that would prevent them doing so. You don't need access to the real steel within china to do it either - send a few bods over to a third party country and measure up an example over there (eg VFC had no access to the AKSU when they originally produced it in Taiwan due to the Taiwanese gun laws - instead the designers were flown out to where the gun was in order to do the dimensioning and detail research)

 

Personally if it came down to an either or, then I'd be keener to see the QC levels go up first and the inovation follow on afterwards; otherwise its got the potential to be more of a distraction (ie where QC remains at current levels and they just do a horizontal market expansion into those other models, rather than go a level higher and adress QC first)

 

Just look at BMW, VW Sony et al. Start with cheap and cheerful (often positively crude) products, get a grasp on the market to point you have a decent handle on what segments and price points there are for creating future products, establish your distributorship, build a bit of confidence at that level (ie that you arent going to suddenly disappear tomorrow or be months behind on schedules) and then diversify, improve quality on your later products. Eventually folks will forget you ever produced anything as god awful as the Isetta or a pocket radio that needed shirts made with oversized pockets to fit it into :D

 

Making tat can either be an end in itself or a means to an end, most of the curent crop of chinese companies strike me as being ones quite happy to put up wih the 'shame' of associating with cheap n cheerful with their eye on the longer term.

 

Western companies and the japanese having been there done that 40 and 50 years ago, and no keen to bury that past embarresment, are now far too snobby to be seen roughing it at that end of the market.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I see a helical sector gear. Kinda cool that they are trying helicals. Hop up looks sort of goofy from what I can see. I guess that is what a PTW hop up unit looks like. Grub screw near feeding tube I guess is how you adjust hop or something. 4th picture with the outer barrel looks funny, must be a prototype or something. IDK why people are complaining about clones. A lot of people cloned TM since they are the innovators of the AEG's and did all the R&D. China should just make clones of the PTW mag, they would make a killing since PTW owners only have probably 4 mags tops unless there wallet can take a huge hit.

 

This doesn't change anything for me. I still prefer a Aftermarket body with a TM base to this even though the price is comparable. I wonder what they are talking about when it comes to FPS limits in the US...Especially if they have different cylinders.

 

http://www.made-in-china.com/import-export...Technology.html

 

Found that with a google search of "celcius technology airsoft". IDK if that means much.

 

Kind of sketched out since there is also this.

 

http://www.celciustech.com/portfolio.asp

 

Nothing about the military, and came up when I was googling "Celcius Technologies India". So yeah...

 

Edit: I see it was Indonesia. But still, I think it is just a HK company that is trying to differentiate itself from other clone manufacturers.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Hah, I'm a PTW owner and I think this is awesome. If anything this may force Systema to finally pull the stick out of its *albatross*, improve the gun, and make it cheaper.

 

Time to finally realize that price doesn't make a gun awesome, i.e being expensive. Time to improve. If PTW users feel shell shocked by the news, it's just reality finally crashing down on their heads.

 

ZING!

 

Excuse me sir, but you have won the internet.

 

You're gonna have to clarify just what innovating the chines companies have done.

AFAIK, the ONLYT innovating a chinese company has done is the F2000 gearbox.

Please tell me if you are aware of any other examples of chinese innovation.

 

JLS F200

JLS SCAR-L

GALAXY MP5-K RIS

CYMA AKM

CYMA AKS74u

ELEMENT PBS-1

AGM MP40

JG HK416

 

And the fact that CYMA puts metal bushings and tightbores in thier Gearboxes. Better than the TM for less cost.

 

I realize that cloning affects the original makers. But in most cases it's only a problem if the original is overpriced, a la the SYSTEMA PTW.

 

Most of the players I know will still buy TM and CA over clones, unless it's a model that only the Cloners do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
except CA are cloners..

That's a really good point. Same goes for G&P, STAR, KingArms... those companies kinda fall into the grey area of mid-end cloners turned high end cloners who have started creating their own variations. Who knows maybe we'll be saying the same thing with Celcius some day. That said, I'm sure if you asked TM if they felt the pinch when G&P and CA first came out they'd say that their sales were definitely affected.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Excuse me sir, but you have won the internet.

 

CYMA AKS74u

 

 

ELEMENT PBS-1

 

Lulz?

 

Neither of these are particularly innovative, especially in the case of the latter where a lot of replicas were hand made in small runs by people who were really dedicated to the hobby.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i found that this thread is amazingly educating!

 

many people are giving their own words about any possibilities based on their own experience.

 

this is such a good thread where i could learn so much thing about business itself. on how important is self development, being competitive and learn from our competitors. another important issue is maintaining the relationship with current customers. it looks like systema will have a competing product much much lower than the price they offer. but somehow, we would still have question mark in our head: will it be close to the leading product?

 

3 answers remain, ends up with 1 conclusion. either celcius product is close to ptw, worse than ptw or even better than ptw. it still remains a mystery until the whole world get their hands on it.

 

but, should celcius is close to ptw if not better, i'm sure systema as a cutting edge company would simply re-act to such situation to maintain their leadership if they don't want to lose their pie. of course at this point, only time will tell.

 

again, this is such a great thread. i never knew that it will go much better. started from raito's curiosity. :) and the rapid goes far beyond.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there is no such product which could be copied.

there is no such copy which can be sold twice cheaper and 4 times worse than the original.

 

Systema PTW wasn't aimed to airsoftplayers market - basic target was government agencies. in these customer segment cost of gun intself doesn't really matters. what matters is 3-5 years TCO.

 

If PTW cost is 1500 USD but it can fire 1 000 000 rounds with beyound forum limits power - than it would be bought for 1500 USD by a government agency for traning porposes.

 

IF clone of PTW will cost 500$ but to shoot 1 000 000 rounds it should be upgraded to systema parts - well - this is the way TM, CA, GB-Tech and other non-PTW toys going right now. Yes - it's still interesting for members of a low-ARPU market such as beginner and average airsoftplayers are. But it not interesting for high-ARPU market on which Systema was aimed with their PTW.

 

PS

It's like hurricane Eotech copy. While you can say it's great - it sucks comparing with eotech itself. yes - it's 2 times cheaper but sucks and can't be used with realsteel - so it's 4 times worse than Eotech.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lulz?

 

Neither of these are particularly innovative, especially in the case of the latter where a lot of replicas were hand made in small runs by people who were really dedicated to the hobby.

 

CYMA AKs74u uses a TM style AKs74 body, something that no one else makes or has made.

 

The ELEMENT PBS-1, fair enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Much like paying 500usd for a clone and carrying more than 20 mags :)

 

How many rounds DO you go through between reloads? 20 PTW mags!? You're dumping eight hicaps every game? Is the tint too dark on your goggles to find a target before holding the trigger? Can you not hear your opponents' screams for mercy over the whine of your motor as you pour rounds out at them? I don't see how repeating this argument about magazine size is contributing to the discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well if anycase a clone will have some errors and imperfections involved. I'm sure that even most Chinese based companies can't get a TM switch right, so I'm also assuming the electronics used in the CTW is just as bogus. Not to mention we'll have kids trying to replace the FETs more often in the CTWs. And also because it is literally 500.00USD, I'm sure lots of sacrifice in material is going to be involved. So maybe it could be made with way more lead content and much more brittle than the already brittle diecast body the Systema uses. I doubt the Celcius CTW uses CNC. And if the electronic parts, FETs break then I don't think Celsius will even make spare parts and at the end customers who bought it will cry to Systema asking for parts or else for those are completely new to PTWs will just have a 500.00USD clone paperweight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Pwnage to Systema, it better come out after the end of june though,

 

and it's a decent fps stock,

 

And does the celcius come with two cylinders? cos then it's an absolute bargain!

 

I really feel sorry for those clone fanboys, cos they're gonna go 'OMG that is so expensive'

 

and then every one else has one and they put 550fps cylinders in just to shoot him for being a complete uber-poor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It'll certainly be an interesting time for Systema.....who you could argue has rested on its laurels for far too long. However, saying that, I don't know how Systema and Sytema owners can be too worried. If it is in fact a clone (ala Dolly the sheep) then everything down to the last screw to the material specs would have to be copied! If they do that, then we'll see one of two possible truths emerging:

 

1) That Systema PTWs are so expensive to manufacture that they justify the retail price, or

 

2) Sellers and perhaps Systema themselves, are making a huge profit on the back of a potentially cheap product.

 

There is a third possiblity, and that is that the "clone", in order to acheive the significantly reduced price, isn't in fact a direct copy.....they may have had to cut corners on the electronics, or the materials, etc etc...which means that the clone will not be as good (or as bad depending on your point of view) as the Systema original.

 

If the outcome proves truth number 2 is correct, then Systema and the retailers deserve everything they get....they've had their free dinner, and now its time to wash the dishes.....in terms of R&D, Systema would have, long ago, made their investment money back and are probably now enjoying the profit after break - even.

 

If the outcome of this proves either truth 1 and 3 to be correct, then the status quo is maintained, and we now have a mid range "PTW" to play with....so punters can pay their money and take their choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Well if anycase a clone will have some errors and imperfections involved. I'm sure that even most Chinese based companies can't get a TM switch right, so I'm also assuming the electronics used in the CTW is just as bogus. Not to mention we'll have kids trying to replace the FETs more often in the CTWs. And also because it is literally 500.00USD, I'm sure lots of sacrifice in material is going to be involved. So maybe it could be made with way more lead content and much more brittle than the already brittle diecast body the Systema uses. I doubt the Celcius CTW uses CNC. And if the electronic parts, FETs break then I don't think Celsius will even make spare parts and at the end customers who bought it will cry to Systema asking for parts or else for those are completely new to PTWs will just have a 500.00USD clone paperweight.

 

From what I've read, the PTW already has a *suitcasey* body, so thats one thing the cloners could improve on.

 

I doubt there are gonna be alot of kids with it, because its 500 USD and they would prefer to buy another cheap or 2, or just loads of accessories.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use and the use of session cookies.