Western Arms M4 CQB-R

[IronWolf]

Well, I'll tell you what....if anyone is interested (worldwide offer ) then PM me or let me know, and I'll find a workshop willing to do those parts. If enough people are interested I'll even post the quote on this thread...who knows, if its not to bad then surely its better than waiting for G&P to do something.....

 

 

If you're looking for someone to make you parts, you should check out a user called "DaytonaGun" over at classicairsoft.net. He's been supplying SP/Escort users over there with an array of custom machined parts and upgrades, and has been looking for idea's on what else to do.

[Captain Hat]

Alternatively, my team's treasurer works for a metal machining company. I was gonna get some parts done for my gun by his in-house guys, but if enough of you are interested he can price out a full run of a few bits. Metal parts would be mainly mild steel, but I figure you probably don't need any more than that for airsoft.

 

Let me know if you're interested.

[Wupjak]

Mine is on its way to me. I'd be interested too.

 

Quick question for those who've done some dissassembly/reassembly to their WA M4s... I just received my Ambi-selector for autos... how hard is it to get the current selector out and a new one back in? Will have to take the entire trigger group out? Or can I simply open up the receiver, lift a detent spring pull out the old selector and push in the new one? The latter suggestion was told to me by a Ranger buddy... but that seems to apply to RS M4s and I don't know how it relates to the WA.

 

Remove pistol grip, remove hex screw in bottom of lower, remove bulkhead that holds buffer latch and selector detent, remove selector lever, reverse.

[Wupjak]

Great news! The machine work required to turn a stock AEG barrel into an M4 length WA barrel was worth it!

 

Outside temp is 79 degrees F a moment ago. Gun does 411-417 fps on Propane (mag was fairly chilly, too) with black AE .25s. These were the same BBs with which I obtained the chrono readings in the initial review. No other changes to the gun.

 

The partially jacked up hop up unit apparently does not interfere with the velocity imparted to the BB. Or, if it does, it does not detract substantially from the gain I am seeing with the longer barrel. Accuracy appears to be left intact, as well.

 

The jammed BB issue resulting in a broken hop up unit is definitely related to the amount of hop up applied to the gun. Be VERY judicious in trying to squeeze 'a bit more' range out of this gun for the time being by cranking in more hop up. Once I dialed the hop up out to 5/8 or below from max, no more jams.

 

Another neat feature is that you can turn the bolt stop function on or off at your leisure! The top of each magazine has a little spring steel loop sticking up out of it. Pushing the loop forward disengages the magazine follower cam that bumps the bolt stop. Note that the follower has to be in a position other than 'empty' to change the setting.

 

This will make your WA function like an SP16 where, after the last shot is fired, the gun will continue to cycle rather than locking the bolt open. This will serve users to minimize wear on their bolt carriers and bolt stops until such time as reinforced parts are available.

 

 

 

 

[poison123]

Wupjack....if you want to get some more of those barrels made please let me know because I'll buy one off you

 

[Wupjak]

Called Mark, the gunsmith (real gunsmith, not pretend like me) who did the lathe/mill work to report the findings over the chrono. I could hear him rolling his eyes at the velocity pickup. I think he said, 'that thing better be as accurate as you say, looks like you've got yourself another damned DM gun!'

 

He told me $50 bucks labor/machine time plus actual shipping. Customer sends the barrel to him, he'll do the work, return the barrel. PM me if you're interested and I'll provide bona fides and so on if a custom barrel is something you have to have before they start storming out of Prometheus' and everyone else's workshops.

 

Ironwolf, great idea! I PM'd Justin/Daytonagun over at CA.org. He's a good man and I've done business with him before. Directed him to this thread and told him where the gun was in terms of the need for reinforced parts that he's set up to produce. We'll see!

Edited May 9, 2008 by Wupjak

[Inq Eisenhorn]

Alternatively, my team's treasurer works for a metal machining company. I was gonna get some parts done for my gun by his in-house guys, but if enough of you are interested he can price out a full run of a few bits. Metal parts would be mainly mild steel, but I figure you probably don't need any more than that for airsoft.

 

Let me know if you're interested.

 

Daytonagun is a great idea, but I think (in true business fashion) it would be good to get a cost comparrison!

 

Captain Hat, if you don't mind contacting your friend and getting a price estimate, that would be great idea....so far it looks like we'd be looking at about 3 or 4 sets! at a minimum. I agree with Mild Steel, for the forces used in airsoft that should be sufficient.....the only issue would be rust, but I can get parts E-coated if the project takes off!

 

I'm guessing either Daytonagun or Captain Hats contact woudl need samples to work from. Anywone got a spare WA that can be used as a guage?

 

[Bangla_Black]

Wupjak, with the G&P ris front end, do both rails line up?

[Bangla_Black]

@#!%@^ double post...

Edited May 9, 2008 by Bangla_Black

[uscmCorps]

Thanks for the selector info Wupjak! Will definitely try it out when it gets here next week.

 

I'm pretty interested in the re-cut inner barrel. Which one did you send him? Would you recommend a Prometheus M4 tightbore?

[Lt.Fenix]

Maybe someone can talk to some people at Airsoft Innovations.

 

They make the flow restrictors for WA pistols so you can use green gas with 134a-ish blowback power to decrease wear. I think the portion of the gas used to propel the bb's is kept the same, so it would only affect the blowback. I bet that would help reduce cool-down also, while at the same time increasing the bb's/fill.

 

Downsides would be weaker blowback and possibly slower ROF.

 

Just a thought.

[vtb]

Well..i don't see why you need to invent bicycle.

 

There are tons of info about upgrading GBB Western Arms Pistols with Magna-R blowback.

Honestly i don't know why you think these rules couldn't be applied to WA M4 Magna-R GBB

 

As far as i see existing problems they are the same as with 1911 pistols - the mechanical pairs made from warious materials are etaing each other under the shock-pressure.

 

Yes - the bolt stop is a cool feature, but unless we'll not get steel-steel pair of details (bolt-stop and part of the bolt interacting with the bolt-stop) - the strongest one will continue to kill the weakest - so the best way is like in 1911 - to count your shots and reload with BB in chamber.

 

What about all system:

 

1st way is to work about gas leaks - longer inner barrel, upper gas routes on the mags, stronger mag catch, eleminating the wobbie of the mag in the reciever. Stronger recoil spring, recoil PVC buffers - this is rather low cost way.

 

2nd way is to made all internals from T7075 and steel - this is the high-cost way.

 

It's like with 1911 WA pistol - keep it plastic - it'll live 25000-30000 shots without any significal flaws (except mag catch notch on the slide). Make it metal - you'll enter the race of swapping the wearing out internals.

 

As i see this - perfect platform for M16A3 GBB DMR rifle. i think on the longer barrel with mag pouches with electrical warmer on the chest, which will ensure the constant temperature of the mag, Sem-auto... so - it'll kill the AEG and bolt snipers mostly because of power+great trigger setup able to make double tap at long distance.

 

And (thanks God) - it would still weight about 3 kilos whith 1 mag in...

 

Anyway - i'm waiting mine to arrive to begin m16a3 build-up.

Edited May 9, 2008 by vtb

[happy.al]

Thank you very much for a great review, and thank you for all your hard work pulling this together.

 

Got to say that I’m pretty disappointed with the reports for this WA M4, I really had high hopes for it and I’d hoped that they would of solved all these problems before it was available to buy. I hope that either G&P or Daytonagun will get it sorted, but for me at the moment I can’t see it’s worth it, especially as I’ve still not seen a UK review, which I expect will show that full auto is basically a no can do in our weather.

 

I really hope you guys get all the issues sorted and once they are and parts are available I’ll look at buying one of these rifles. I still really want to like this gun, and I still have hope that these problems will be sorted soon.

 

[vtb]

The catch 22 for WA M4 is following:

 

To build aftermarket parts for M4 WA it should have popularity

M4 WA can't have popularity without aftermarket parts.

 

PS. And where the mags for 85$ ??? i can get them only for 120$ directly form Japan... it's not hte way for skirmishing...

Edited May 9, 2008 by vtb

[Trasher]

Catch 22 is a good point... A CQB rifle can't have popularity with mags over $100.

 

Hmm, a gas in the mag, semi-auto DMR/sniper would be interesting.

[IronWolf]

Indeed, was thinking of making an MK12 MOD0 SPR myself. Its been documented that most RS furniture will fit, but what about parts intended for AEG's? (railed forearms, etc)?

[Captain Hat]

Captain Hat, if you don't mind contacting your friend and getting a price estimate, that would be great idea....so far it looks like we'd be looking at about 3 or 4 sets! at a minimum. I agree with Mild Steel, for the forces used in airsoft that should be sufficient.....the only issue would be rust, but I can get parts E-coated if the project takes off!

 

I'm guessing either Daytonagun or Captain Hats contact woudl need samples to work from. Anywone got a spare WA that can be used as a guage?

I should be getting my M4 this week or next, and I can get prices fairly quickly after that as long as I have some idea what kind of numbers we're talking about. I'll be happy to send parts of my own gun as examples, as I don't plan on using it much until I can get the new bits made and installed. In terms of rust protection, I can get the parts zinc-plated as well, though I'll ask for prices both ways beforehand.

 

I would also need to know which bits we'd be looking at getting done- though obviously that will be more help to me once I've actually got the gun in front of me to look at.

[Wupjak]

uscmCorps - I just grabbed one of my old stock barrels that's in my parts box. It's a 6.08 brass barrel. A tightbore would display even higher fps as you'd imagine.

 

He lives up the hill from me, so I just asked him if the machine shop was open (code talk for 'HELP!') and he used the stock WA barrel as a basis for the cuts. Prom makes nice inner barrels but they're steel as opposed to brass, which is obviously harder to work with. I'd go brass, but that's cause I've seen him cuss at steel parts being a PITA to work with on his setup. Remember you want an M16 length barrel to start with so there's room to chop off the AEG cut hop up.

 

Bangla, yes, level between receiver and RIS.

 

 

[poison123]

uscmCorps - I just grabbed one of my old stock barrels that's in my parts box. It's a 6.08 brass barrel. A tightbore would display even higher fps as you'd imagine.

 

He lives up the hill from me, so I just asked him if the machine shop was open (code talk for 'HELP!') and he used the stock WA barrel as a basis for the cuts. Prom makes nice inner barrels but they're steel as opposed to brass, which is obviously harder to work with. I'd go brass, but that's cause I've seen him cuss at steel parts being a PITA to work with on his setup. Remember you want an M16 length barrel to start with so there's room to chop off the AEG cut hop up.

 

Bangla, yes, level between receiver and RIS.

 

 

Here's what I'll send him once I get the details I pm'd you about wupjack:

 

Systema M16, AUG Barrel (509mm) - 10470

 

You see any problems with that one?

[Wupjak]

Here's what I'll send him once I get the details I pm'd you about wupjack:

 

Systema M16, AUG Barrel (509mm) - 10470

 

You see any problems with that one?

 

Looks good.

 

Just occured to me that most folks will be asking for a CQB length inner barrel. In that instance an M16 length inner is unnecessary - that was for guys like me that wanted an M4 length inner barrel. M4 length/363mm is plenty long for a 10.5" inner.

 

Ironwolf - with the exception of the out of spec barrel nut (workaround in the original post), the gun will take real steel forearms. The OD of the barrel is correct for my samson low profile gas block but the front sight post pin cuts are the AEG dimension as opposed to real steel. I'd say you're in good shape mounting hardware to the front end.

Edited May 9, 2008 by Wupjak

[IronWolf]

Very promising, thanks for the info

[Wupjak]

Another neat feature is that you can turn the bolt stop function on or off at your leisure! The top of each magazine has a little spring steel loop sticking up out of it. Pushing the loop forward disengages the magazine follower cam that bumps the bolt stop. Note that the follower has to be in a position other than 'empty' to change the setting.

 

This will make your WA function like an SP16 where, after the last shot is fired, the gun will continue to cycle rather than locking the bolt open. This will serve users to minimize wear on their bolt carriers and bolt stops until such time as reinforced parts are available.

 

Mine vented the mag's worth of gas on the first trigger pull twice with the loop pressed forward this morning, where it didn't yesterday. Hold off on this one, further testing needed.

[Inq Eisenhorn]

I should be getting my M4 this week or next, and I can get prices fairly quickly after that as long as I have some idea what kind of numbers we're talking about. I'll be happy to send parts of my own gun as examples, as I don't plan on using it much until I can get the new bits made and installed. In terms of rust protection, I can get the parts zinc-plated as well, though I'll ask for prices both ways beforehand.

 

I would also need to know which bits we'd be looking at getting done- though obviously that will be more help to me once I've actually got the gun in front of me to look at.

 

100% interested, perhaps it would be wise to take this to PMs in an effort to stop hijacking Wupjacks thread or perhaps start another thread on this.

 

[poison123]

And now I'm ######. My magazine has developed a rattle on the inside and is now leaking gas. Grrrrrrrrrrr a week and a half old, never dropped, maybe 20 mags worth of BBs, oiled every other mag, and the god damn thing is already screwed up.

[Wupjak]

Hehe. Way ahead of ya:

 

VENT ALL OF THE GAS. Don't ask me how I know.

 

Remove the roll pins in the front (bb channel) of the mag and in the bottom middle to free the baseplate and front channel

 

Remove the pins in the top middle of the mag and the one under the bb channel

 

Rock the magazine guts at the top of the mag forward. Watch for the spring on the right/top of the mag under the valve lock that'll jump out. That's the only little piece in there.

 

Remove the seal o-rings and wind the channel with teflon tape to build up the sealing surface.

 

The rattle is coming from the chamber divider in the magazine. After you build up underneath the gasket/o-ring, tighten the phillips screw on the bottom of the part by the downward pointing spout. That's the part that's rattling I bet.

 

Just take your time and go easy with the front edge/baseplate of the mag. The plastic is fairly strong but the tabs on the bottom of the baseplate are plastic. Mine broke off because I'm a tard.