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Western Arms M4 CQB-R


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This guy has alot of fun with it, and I have alot of fun watching him:

 

Is that the new tracer unit he was using by TM or was it just ambient light hitting the bbs?

 

On a side note the reviews all of you gave definitely makes me want to get one but I'll be waiting for maybe the 2nd or 3rd gen. guns probably in a year maybe. Good stuff :P Anyone willing to let me fire it a couple of times in the socal area?

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Oh don't start darin LOL! All my comments about SP guns are directed at the stock gun as I pointed out in the foreword. Besides, [ignorant]ZOMG HOSE!!![/ignorant] :P

 

I have made no secret that I love this gun. The problem is that it isn't built durably enough to withstand the pounding that a reciprocating bolt creates. Bababooey pointed this out early on in the news thread. I am seeing it for myself first hand.

 

As much as I like the gun, it would be a disservice to the readers if I left the review as a snapshot in time and did not follow up with subsequent developments. At some point the as m4 will be a really doable option for a skirmishable weapon. 3 weeks after its release, however, it is most definitely not. I guess on the Internet people are all experts on everything. Let them say I told ya so. Who cares. Why do you think there are so many aeg m4s on the market? Because they're 'safe.' All the wannabe airsoft pundits are perched to crucify the shortcomings of an innovative product. What smart business would bother to do anything new?

 

Word of mouth matters in this hobby as with any other. If users burn anything new at the stake, expect to see an endless supply of the same old.

 

I eagerly await the availability of parts that will let this gun do its thing as it did when it came out of the box...and KEEP doing it over time.

 

As for replacement parts, captain hat, lemme know what you find out please.

 

Love you, Wup. :P

 

But you know that I'm watching with keen interest, as getting the product to where it needs to be would be pure cake, icing, AND ice cream!

Still haven't resolved myself to the issue of powering it over the course of a long op though.

 

Noone threw away a BMW because of tiny scratch on bumper.

Poor attempt at an analogy.

and i think most of discussion that WA M4 unskirmishable comes from that you have one and the only mag to play with.

Uhhh, and that the mag will only fire 30-40 rounds before cooldown occurs? And that even if you had a full mag loadout of 12 mags (rumored to be $900 before shipping.....so $1400 before shipping for the gun and 12 mags.....which costs more than a fully-upgraded SP....or more than Escort HK416....), that there has been no skirmish durability proof yet, and that you need to gas up the magazine after shooting through it so that means carrying gas with you on the field anyway.......

 

The WA M4 product is an awesome undertaking, and I want to see it succeed. It isn't there yet and is a niche product with limited applications until some of those issues are addressed.

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Do any of you guys think that WA will go over/reinforce the gun a little more? After all it did just come out and there just recieving customer input.

One would hope so.

 

Regardless, that is rather ######-poor product development and validation. But it worked for CA, so why not let consumers take the brunt of being validation/reliability engineers, eh?

 

;)

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Right now I see this as more of a CQB rifle (doh, as the name suggests :D:P )I don't see this being intended for any woodland work, and certainly not for sustained operations.

 

As far as WA going back to the drawing board, I'd be very surprised if we see another interation of this rifle....call it gut instinct, but I just can't see it. I see WA as one of those companies that puts a weapon out, if it sells great...keep making more of them....if they don't sell, bummer...lets phase them out and move onto something else....

 

I hope they prove me wrong....<_<

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Right now I see this as more of a CQB rifle (doh, as the name suggests :D:P )I don't see this being intended for any woodland work, and certainly not for sustained operations.

 

As far as WA going back to the drawing board, I'd be very surprised if we see another interation of this rifle....call it gut instinct, but I just can't see it. I see WA as one of those companies that puts a weapon out, if it sells great...keep making more of them....if they don't sell, bummer...lets phase them out and move onto something else....

 

I hope they prove me wrong....<_<

 

 

I seriously doubt based on the parts that are failing that WA will come out with reinforced parts.

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It's usually the HK and some japanese partmakers like Sheriff that pick up where WA left. Like poison, I'm bit sceptic from seeing WA coming up anything better than hfc134a withstanding parts. I want the gun, but as AW said, not with that pricetag AND thats not even including the bling I first mentioned..But this is good anyway, the other makers get inspired and more to come I hope, thumbs up!

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Uhhh, and that the mag will only fire 30-40 rounds before cooldown occurs? And that even if you had a full mag loadout of 12 mags (rumored to be $900 before shipping.....so $1400 before shipping for the gun and 12 mags.....which costs more than a fully-upgraded SP....or more than Escort HK416....), that there has been no skirmish durability proof yet, and that you need to gas up the magazine after shooting through it so that means carrying gas with you on the field anyway.......

 

The WA M4 product is an awesome undertaking, and I want to see it succeed. It isn't there yet and is a niche product with limited applications until some of those issues are addressed.

 

AW... I agree that on this stage upgraded SP is better than stock WA.

 

But...honestly - it's pain in the ... to get SP and upgrade it. i mean if smthng would happen to spiggy and daytonagun - basta...

Escort... well - i'm done with it. They do produce great products (not the open-and-go, but good one) but customer care - there is NO customer care - i don't want to pre-pay another $1500 and recieve welcome 'flick-off' when i ask after 8 month about status of my gun.

 

What i'm trying to say that at current period of time SP and WA are equal in terms of troubles they gonna make to average airsofter. Both need to be upgraded. For me it sounds like i should contact daytonagun in case of SP and in case of WA.

 

They differs however ithat we know in case of SP it can be upgraded to the level where it live fine thru 3000 round burst.. and we don't know if it's possible with WA.

 

But i think it wouldn't cost over $1000 to make all WA M4 internals from steel (it's of course insane - but who's 100% sane ? :D )

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...

OR they can go back to the drawingboard, sack their current materials selection staff, and put out a version 2 of the rifle that can actually be used for more than a couple of games.

 

Won't happen.

 

WA is like Top... They consider their guns collectibles and show-pieces - that just happen to also fire BBs. In their mind, if your gun broke, then you must be firing it too much.

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But...honestly - it's pain in the ... to get SP and upgrade it. i mean if smthng would happen to spiggy and daytonagun - basta...

Escort... well - i'm done with it. They do produce great products (not the open-and-go, but good one) but customer care - there is NO customer care - i don't want to pre-pay another $1500 and recieve welcome 'flick-off' when i ask after 8 month about status of my gun.

 

What i'm trying to say that at current period of time SP and WA are equal in terms of troubles they gonna make to average airsofter. Both need to be upgraded. For me it sounds like i should contact daytonagun in case of SP and in case of WA.

 

That's why when people ask, I advise that the best route is to be patient and wait for an used, pre-upgraded SP is the most reliable method to get one, assuming the buyer takes the time to ensure the upgrades weren't hackjobs. :D

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But i think it wouldn't cost over $1000 to make all WA M4 internals from steel (it's of course insane - but who's 100% sane ? :D )

 

 

If you were going to replicate the full internals of the WA, and bearing in mind G&P has brought out a metal body, you can use a real stock tube, and of course you now have the G&P front ends......

 

Whats the point in buying a WA? it seems to me you can scratch build a better weapon from the get go!

 

The only thing you'd need from WA would be the magazine.

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If you were going to replicate the full internals of the WA, and bearing in mind G&P has brought out a metal body, you can use a real stock tube, and of course you now have the G&P front ends......

 

Whats the point in buying a WA? it seems to me you can scratch build a better weapon from the get go!

 

The only thing you'd need from WA would be the magazine.

 

It's cheaper to object-copy than to scratch built. and what for WA only parts that should be build from steel are

 

1. bolt-stop

2. Whole trigger group

3. inner bolt

4. recieving end of bolt

5. longer inner-barrel

 

hopup, blowback chamber etc - will remain stock - it's no need to rebuild them.

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Sigh.

 

So theres really only two parts in the rifle I think at this junction that need better steel parts:

 

1.) The bit on the Bolt Stop.

2.) The bit that fits around the barrel and acts as a loading ramp for the bb.

 

Thats it...those are the two pieces I see that take the most damage from the bolt slamming forward. The body, barrel etc are all pretty damn tough....they took a beating the other day in some cqb play and took it like a champ.

 

I've got a m4 length barrel being made, and I'll let you know the velocity change when I get it...but I'm sort of expecting a 25+ fps jump just from a standard non tight bore barrel swap.

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heh- as the man above has said, it's much easier to copy an original than to scratch-build.

 

Though if you happen to know somobody who HAS an original and a machine shop... you'd still be breaking patent laws, I think.

 

I don't know how international patent law operates, but it seems that way to me. Even so, a licensing fee to use the design would be far from unreasonable (and almost certainly work out cheaper than buying and upgrading) though I don't know how amenable WA would be to the idea. Probably not very, I would imagine. Niche producers rarely are, even though their own volumes are quite low- it doesn't make immediate sense, though I suppose they'd be worried about a second producer- particularly a low-volume second producer- making it easier for a genuinely "pirated" model to be produced.

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2.) The bit that fits around the barrel and acts as a loading ramp for the bb.

 

Thats it...those are the two pieces I see that take the most damage from the bolt slamming forward. The body, barrel etc are all pretty damn tough....they took a beating the other day in some cqb play and took it like a champ.

 

I've got a m4 length barrel being made, and I'll let you know the velocity change when I get it...but I'm sort of expecting a 25+ fps jump just from a standard non tight bore barrel swap.

 

The bit that fits around the barrel is incorporated into the hop up housing.

 

I took a few days away from the gun and will revisit it with fresh eyes today or tomorrow.

 

Mine went from 392 with .25 up to 417 with an M4 length barrel as we discussed. :) It's enough to make a big difference in range, theoretically. I'm going to do some doctoring on the hop up arm to allow me to add more hop without jamming BBs. I find with the max hop applied without causing jams, the BB doesn't hop enough to allow a flat trajectory past 120-130 feet.

 

I'm holding out hope that I can keep this thing together and functioning on my own. I think there's a burr developing on the top ridge of the steel bolt stop bit that's dragging along the bottom of the bolt. The dragging probably caused the gun to vent gas as I reported earlier, as well as caused the slower-than-normal lock up time and slower-than-usual bolt dropping forward out of the bolt-locked-back position. We shall see. :)

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Whoa....I wasn't suggesting a parts syndicate or clone rifle club :D

 

It just occurs to me that nearly everything on this gun needs updating / replacing in order for it to be "right" for most people.

 

Sure the body etc may be good enough....but who wants good enough? People who buy TM or JG rifles, will sooner or later upgrade the body to a metal one, so in WA case, that will most likely be a G&P body when it comes out! The plastic front sight and flash-hider will go as soon as you like, in fact, you'll probably replace the whole front end with a G&P kit. You'll fit a tightbore, and probably a real pistol grip....cause you can!

 

The stock will get binned, cause its basic and #yawn-tastic#, and if reports are correct you'll even swap out the stock tube for a real steel maybe?!?

 

That leaves the internals, which has been done to death.....so once you've made all these changes, whats actually left of the WA original? The mag, the hop......

 

Look at it this way, a group of say eight (8) people could get together (if they really wanted a skirmishable GBB rifle) all club in and buy a WA for data copying purposes...and basically get the parts they need made, buy the parts that are availible from G&P...and sell on the WA to get their money back....job done!

 

ideas, ideas, ideas......:D

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Daytonagun replied to my inquiry and told me that yes, he will be producing parts for the gun.

 

He has heard from friends that WA will release a non-railed version. He is waiting for that to arrive on the market to keep the cost of his sample gun down.

 

This is excellent news. The guy makes outstanding parts. I directed him to this thread but he said he wasn't registered here. Hopefully he'll register and contribute. :)

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I want to be excited about this but for some reason it's just not happening...

 

Revenge seeker, it seems like you have been with this gun from the beginning (in the news section and all through this review), please tell me why this is so awesome, is it the blowback?

 

I want to share the love :P

 

Its awesome in so many ways, it breaks down like a real M4, it has Gas Blow Back and a nice report, and it doesn't have a need for batteries or complex gearboxes......

 

But, if you read up on he subject, it has some pretty serious flaws......flaws that might mean this never gets you excited! but, like most things, it depends on what you want from your next rifle...

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