Western Arms M4 CQB-R

[Lupus78]

From what I understood from researching the MTW was that you could swap between c02 and regular mags? Or is the c02 gun mechanically different from the GG/Propane gun?

Nothing has been confirmed yet as far as I know... I'd say that depends on how major changes they've had to make to the nozzle & feeding system for the new co2-version. If they think the gun operates better with some drastic changes, then it really might not be possible to swap the gas mags for it - at least without changing the bolt and spring too. I suppose that the next weekend we might hear some new information, since Inokatsu is showing off the MTW for the audience at the Taipei hooha-show (wha'ever).

 

I'm thinking of buying the co2 M4A1 MTW (if it proves successful) and also the XM177 later next year (if I'm happy with the M4). Man, I've been waiting for a "gas in a mag" rifle for ages... The WA M4 has tempted me, but the problems with green gas and the fact that its has plastic body has kept me from buying it. Also the co2 might be the answer for me. In my experience co2 guns work a lot better in colder environment than HFC134a/Green Gas, at least on pistols & smg's. And one capsule (less than 1€ each) per mag (~30rnd?) sounds a lot better than just four 50rnd mags per 17€ bottle.

[Jimisin73]

Heya guys, I'm not sure if anyone else has posed this yet but:

 

LEDPOCKET AND I THINK WE DISCOVERED THE DESIGN FLAW THAT IS CAUSING ALL THE HOP UP UNIT FAILURES ON THIS GUN (the Western Arms to be clear, since this topic seems to have branched into discussion about the upcomming offering from Inokatsu):

 

You shouldn't fire partial magazines! When the blow back cycles, a round is re-chambered at the end of the process. If you drop the mag, this round stays chambered in the hop up (because unlike the Real Steel, there is no extractor), and when you put in a new mag and cycle the charging handle, a second round is double fed into the chamber. The two rounds stack and crush the hop up when the bolt slams forward... the type of gas used is irrelevent (the force with which the bolt slams forward is generated by the Recoil spring, not the gas... that said the backward motion of the bolt on propane may eventualy cause additional wear and tear, but this hop up failure seems inevitable even if duster or other low powered gas is used). If you don't fire a full mag, it is imperetive that you use a loading rod to clear the chamber so this doesn't occur. The only other option is to continue to fire until the bolt locks back... then you can check the chamber and safley load a new mag. Hit the bolt release and you are ready to fire.

 

I hope this saves you from some of the heartache Jay and I have gone through...

 

BTW mine is back up and running reliably on propane (for now) and chronoing at 341 fps with .28s (Killer B bio .28s to be exact)

 

I will stress test it at Norther Wind and try and keep track of rounds fired, so that I can report mean time between failures.

Edited August 5, 2008 by Jimisin73

[GBB Nut]

IMHO I'd imagine that it's pretty tough to design a working extractor for a round BB so it's not really a design flaw per se.

 

Personally I never had this problem with my WA M4. Just think of it like a real rifle. If your bolt isn't locked to the rear then you've probably got a round chambered (unless you disabled the bolt stop function). So just insert new mag and go. The nice part about the WA M4 is you'll either fire a BB or dry fire (no BB in the chamber). Either way the bolt will cycle back, automatically loading and chambering a new BB for you. There should be no need to operate the charging handle once you've put rounds down range unless you're performing immediate action to clear a malfunction. Even then you should visually inspect the chamber for any obstructions (is there a BB inside the hopup?) before inserting a new magazine.

 

Btw I used my WA M4 outdoors this past weekend in about 100 degree weather and it worked just fine. Fired 900 rounds with green gas. No leaks, no malfunctions.

[Arion]

I'm bamboozled. People haven't stopped complaining about the fact that the WA M4 couldn't take Green Gas without parts breaking and you two here are telling me you've gotten your M4's running on Green without failure?

[D.O.C.]

I'm bamboozled. People haven't stopped complaining about the fact that the WA M4 couldn't take Green Gas without parts breaking and you two here are telling me you've gotten your M4's running on Green without failure?

 

I use green with the WA now for about 1k rounds in different games in stock configuration and I had no single jam or faillure until now...

it works just like on the first day!

 

BUT, I use only 0,2g with it, have dissabled the bolt catch for known reasons and all my mags are leaking of course.

 

DOC

[ratech]

RA TECH WA Steel hammer with double bearing ,and precision inner barrel ,test film

http://tw.youtube.com/watch?v=iQXa6-lNSrg

[Jimisin73]

Let me clairify:

Mine failed... I broke the top of the hop up "chamber" like almost all the other guys have described here. All I'm saying is that it isn't really because of the Propane / green gas - it's because if you accidentally get a double feed, the resulting jam breaks the part. The force with which the bolt blows back (which is related to the higher power gas) doesn't cause the trauma to the part - the jam does.

 

Mr. Pockek actually milled a replacement for the broken part, and (after wrestling with the O-ring on the chamber end of the hop up unit) noe my gun works flawlessly. That said, I'm pretty convinced that the stock plastic part would have been fine, if I hadn't had the double feed.

 

(God I hope that makes sense )

[Pedobear]

Well my friend Epic Lulz shot about 3000 rounds through his WA running green gas, and his gun only broke because he accidentally double fed it by putting loading a new clip when a round was already in the hopup.

[amateurstuntman]

Loading a new mag into the gun when there is a round in the chamber doesn't damage the hop.

doing the above and then needlessly operating the cocking handle does.

 

If you are doing a "tactical" reload, the hammer is already cocked when there is a round in the chamber.

If the bolt locks back, there isn't a round in the chamber and you won't get a double feed.

If you run out of gas and change the mag then you need to drop the mag, cock it and then stick a new mag in and go nuts.

 

It's all about good drills.

 

 

RA tech e-mailed me today about their replacement hammer, it has bearing races and is heavier than the original...

[poison123]

Let me clairify:

Mine failed... I broke the top of the hop up "chamber" like almost all the other guys have described here. All I'm saying is that it isn't really because of the Propane / green gas - it's because if you accidentally get a double feed, the resulting jam breaks the part. The force with which the bolt blows back (which is related to the higher power gas) doesn't cause the trauma to the part - the jam does.

 

Mr. Pockek actually milled a replacement for the broken part, and (after wrestling with the O-ring on the chamber end of the hop up unit) noe my gun works flawlessly. That said, I'm pretty convinced that the stock plastic part would have been fine, if I hadn't had the double feed.

 

(God I hope that makes sense )

 

 

Wasn't a double feed that broke most of our early day ones. It was the bolt slamming into the hopup at a much faster rate than it was supposed to on GG. And yes it is gas related. GG will also cause your mags to eventually leak if you don't soak the seals in break fluid before you use it.

 

You will also get double feeds/jams because of the hopup if its dialed up too much.

Edited August 5, 2008 by poison123

[Jimisin73]

Not being argumentative, but, if I understand how the mechanism works I'm not following how the different gas is going to effect how hard the bolt returns to battery. Isn't the buffer spring what provides the force to return the bolt to battery? If so that spring will only ever create the same amount of force (it is a spring afterall), so how can the different gas change the amount of force?

The gas will effect the force that the bolt "blow back" , and I could see that causing additional wear over time...

 

I didn't see this happen to my gun (I was in the middle of an engagment after all ) but when we were testing and reassembling the gun last night, we were speculating on how the damage occured.

It happend to both our guns, and I've heard of this failure happening on guns used only with duster.

 

That said, the repair requires replacing that part of the hop up with a metal replacement anyway, so I guess the point is moot...

[poison123]

Think about it like this. Either you compress the spring at a much quicker rate which translates into a faster rate going forward, or you compress it further than it was meant to be with GG and thus it propels forward at a faster rate. The gas plays a large part in that equation.

[uscmCorps]

RA TECH WA Steel hammer with double bearing ,and precision inner barrel ,test film

What's the performance difference between the Steel Hammer with bearings and the stock WA hammer? If the hammer is heavier wouldn't it hit the valve harder thus releasing more gas and making the gas usage less efficient?

[Jimisin73]

Think about it like this. Either you compress the spring at a much quicker rate which translates into a faster rate going forward, or you compress it further than it was meant to be with GG and thus it propels forward at a faster rate. The gas plays a large part in that equation.

 

Hmmm, so m x a = Force in Neutons and what you're saying is m is the same, but a is faster

(a = "delta V" / Time) so more force... I guess I could buy that...

 

(I was an english major, so if my physics is sketchy don't blame me )

 

All that said, the ultimate fix is the replacement hop up That said, I'll try and use my WA as my primary at Northern Wind this weekend and see if holds up...

 

 

[BaBaBooey]

It happend to both our guns, and I've heard of this failure happening on guns used only with duster.

 

Just out of curiosity, where have you seen hop-up damage (NOT as a result of the double feed) using duster? Or did I misunderstand you - the break will only occur as a result of a double feed, which can happen on both 134a and Green Gas? The majority of the failures that people are talking about in the boards in Japan are in the bolt stop. I personally have not heard of hop-up damage and/or double feeding as a result of 134a.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult...it'll help me decide to upgrade the hop-up if you have seen damage from 134a.

 

Thanks!

[Jimisin73]

Just anecdotal stuff... other boards here in the states... I think it is from double feeding.

Also it's not that it double feeds durring normal operation... it happens when you do your pre-emptive mag changes and aren't sure the barrel is clear...

[chillindrdude]

JImisin...how are you gonna be using this gun at NW with GG and stay under FPS limits? unless of course, i'm assuming you are using the stock barrel...

 

 

[Jimisin73]

Stock barrel... it's under the limits... Chronos approx. 360 with .25s (actually 341 with .28s) also, I'm not going to be a player per se - I'm one of the Role Players for the day

Edited August 6, 2008 by Jimisin73

[Lupus78]

GG will also cause your mags to eventually leak if you don't soak the seals in break fluid before you use it.

Same thing happened with my Maruzen MP5K GBB magazines. Propane/Butane without silicone dries up the seals quite fast. I used some machine grease meant for o-rings and that fixed the problem. Also one of the leaky mags stopped leaking after I filled it with duster gas that has silicone in it. The others had to be greased...

Edited August 6, 2008 by Lupus78

[GBB Nut]

Wasn't a double feed that broke most of our early day ones. It was the bolt slamming into the hopup at a much faster rate than it was supposed to on GG. And yes it is gas related. GG will also cause your mags to eventually leak if you don't soak the seals in break fluid before you use it.

 

You will also get double feeds/jams because of the hopup if its dialed up too much.

 

 

+1 This has been my experience as well. Green gas is very hard on a stock WA M4. Double feeding/other malfunctions just make the damage that much worse.

 

IMHO the hammer isn't a weak enough part that it requires replacement anytime soon. It's the bolt stop. That's part numbers 99 & 100. Just combine the two and machine it out of some decent material. Try aluminum - 6061 maybe? - just avoid steel so it doesn't cause premature wear of the bolt carrier. You'll sell thousands. Seriously.

 

All that said, the ultimate fix is the replacement hop up That said, I'll try and use my WA as my primary at Northern Wind this weekend and see if holds up...

 

When you install your hop up, remember not to screw the two halves together too tight. It's ok to leave a very slight gap (and in my experiences it's better that way). This will allow for minor variations in BB diameter and help you to avoid any serous BB jamming issues. Don't worry about losing velocity. The o-ring around the tip of the hopup will keep things nice and air tight.

 

it happens when you do your pre-emptive mag changes and aren't sure the barrel is clear...

 

This is commonly referred to as "operator error" not a design flaw. That said - Murphy rules and sometimes bad shtuff just happens.

GBBNut - please use the edit button instead of making consecutive posts.

[IronWolf]

Prime will be releasing a MUR kit for the WA M4 in August, price not yet revealed...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GBB Nut]

Nice find IronWolf. Prime makes some solid products. Btw, did anyone notice the bottom pic shows the hammer with a bearing on the top? Totally worthless fluff for a real rifle but for airsoft it could be interesting...

[WAAPURR]

Not sure if and where I missed this info, but perhaps someone can enlighten me about the hop up "bucking" this gun uses. Is it similiar design to an aeg bucking or is it a completely different animal.

[Wupjak]

Not AEG or Hi-Capa compatible. It is its own design. I don't own a WA pistol, but I've seen the barrels before and suspect that this will be similar to a pistol design.

[GBB Nut]

Not AEG or Hi-Capa compatible. It is its own design. I don't own a WA pistol, but I've seen the barrels before and suspect that this will be similar to a pistol design.

 

 

I compared the WA M4 hopup rubber to one used in a WA pistol. Very, very close. Haven't tried it to be sure if it really is or isn't compatible yet. But after placing the two side by side it's clearly not a drop-in replacement fit.