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Gazza.M

Most accurate Gas Blowback?

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I was about to go on a tirade about how recoil has nothing to do with how accurate a gun is for its first shot, but then I started thinking about the relatively low velocities a GBB fires at and that a bb might not have time to clear the barrel before the recoil cycle begins. On a real firearm, more recoil just means you are going to be more afraid of the BANG and more likely to flinch, but the bullet is long gone before you feel the gun jump.

 

Follow up shots are a different matter...

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Given the way airsoft guns function i doubt that is a concern, as the gas feeds to the shot and then changes to feed to the recoil. and at 250+fps, in a 4" barrel thats a tiny proportion of a second (given time to accelerate 1/400(ish) of a second)

 

 

And if it did, the BB would contact the side of the barrel, and the shot would be very inaccurate, and the TM DE in question is just not that bad.

 

 

 

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Find yourself a WA SVI (used they're a bargain) - Nothing beats them for accuracy at the ranges you want (10-15 doesn't need - or want - hop-up).

 

Only thing better is a Tanaka Luger (can't speak for the WE copy) with the 8" barrel (guess the 6" is close), as virtually nothing moves and tight groupings are easy.

 

Pretty much all TM GBB pistols can put BBs into a 60-70 mm circle from 10 meters.

 

Pretty much ALL GBBs can...

 

Cheers.

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QUOTE (BigAl @ Aug 15 2008, 04:34 PM) *

As for the Desert Eagle it does have a fixed barrel but it also has recoil comparable to a .22 Rimfire. While this is great fun to shoot ( I've got three of the buggers ) it is not condusive to accurate shooting.

 

 

that still does not prevent it from being first shot accurate... smile.gif

 

Actually it does to some extent. People know it's gonna kick and often flinch as they sqeeze the trigger, it's know as magnum flinch. Also as he want's a GBB it kind of suggest he want's multi shot capability.

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OK, so what factors determine accuracy... I guess as the whole barrel, slide mechanism moves around with each shot that will be one of the fundamental issues. Next perhaps the barrel / bb fit? Then projectile mass?

 

Am I correct?

 

 

 

 

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It's difficult with handguns especially.

 

Unless you're going to bolt the thing down to determine its accuracy (a totally academic exercise in my view, since you'll NEVER use it in that way), the ergonomics, light, smooth trigger and sight clarity/alignment are the biggest factors.

 

A consistent hop-up (including none at all) is important too, as is a consistent gas system, delivering consistent shot to shot fps.

 

In my experience, the guns with the least kick tend to deliver the best accuracy (which is why people believe the TM Hi-Capa is pretty good, it kicks like a kitten) because you tend to keep the gun on target from shot to shot more reliably.

 

The only guns delivering under an inch 5 from 6 groupings at 5m (shot offhand) that I've tested are listed below (final figure is group diameter in MM)

 

Western Arms Colt Delta Elite SCW GBB 14

Airsoft Surgeon Colt DumboRAT special Infinity based GBB 15

Tanaka Works Luger P08 Artillery 8" GBB 15

Tokyo Marui Hi Capa 5.0 Boland from Elite (4.3") GBB 15

Western Arms Colt 1911 Series 70 SCW GBB 17

Western Arms Beretta Cougar Warrior GBB 17.5

Western Arms Beretta M92FS Competiton GBB 17.5

Tanaka Works Luger P08 Artillery 8" GBB 17.5

Western Arms Beretta Elite CQB GBB 20

Tokyo Marui Hi Capa 4.3 Tactical Custom GBB 20

Tokyo Marui Glock 17 GBB 23

Western Arms Beretta Elite 2 GBB 25

Western Arms Para Ordnance SCW HRT (Black) GBB 25

Tokyo Marui Steyr GB NBB 25

KSC STI 5.5 Hybrid Limited GBB 25

Western Arms Colt 1911 US Army GBB 25

 

I don't think it's any coincidence that most are WA guns (only custom guns are in amongst them and Tanaka's Magna system powered Luger which little moving mass), although TM's guns are getting better and the 4.3 Hi-Capa and Glock are perfectly good perfomers (The accuracy of the Steyr's amazing, too, considering it's an ancient NBB design with a heavy trigger)

 

 

Cheers.

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If I talk good about Western Arms I can only refer to my experiences with my Wilson Combat SDS, the Kimber Warrior and an 6" Infinity I had lately the chance to test for some shots.

 

As the discussion reached factors for accurracy, I for myself have the impression, that 60-80 % is up to the shooter (if you use proper and comparable equipment). Your technique and trigger handling effect way more than the fine precission differences of good GBBs.

 

But if you can handle the low profile sight of the Marui 1911, it is a very nice GBB. Only lacking the gas capacity (naturally, if you look at the slim magazines).

 

I'll definitely get me a MEU, hope it is identical or even a bit better than the 1911A1.

But I wouldn't miss my WAs eighter. So … a lot of good GBBs out there.

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Hey, great post! Thanks! 

 

It's difficult with handguns especially.

 

Unless you're going to bolt the thing down to determine its accuracy (a totally academic exercise in my view, since you'll NEVER use it in that way), the ergonomics, light, smooth trigger and sight clarity/alignment are the biggest factors.

 

A consistent hop-up (including none at all) is important too, as is a consistent gas system, delivering consistent shot to shot fps.

 

In my experience, the guns with the least kick tend to deliver the best accuracy (which is why people believe the TM Hi-Capa is pretty good, it kicks like a kitten) because you tend to keep the gun on target from shot to shot more reliably.

 

The only guns delivering under an inch 5 from 6 groupings at 5m (shot offhand) that I've tested are listed below (final figure is group diameter in MM)

 

Western Arms Colt Delta Elite SCW GBB 14

Airsoft Surgeon Colt DumboRAT special Infinity based GBB 15

Tanaka Works Luger P08 Artillery 8" GBB 15

Tokyo Marui Hi Capa 5.0 Boland from Elite (4.3") GBB 15

Western Arms Colt 1911 Series 70 SCW GBB 17

Western Arms Beretta Cougar Warrior GBB 17.5

Western Arms Beretta M92FS Competiton GBB 17.5

Tanaka Works Luger P08 Artillery 8" GBB 17.5

Western Arms Beretta Elite CQB GBB 20

Tokyo Marui Hi Capa 4.3 Tactical Custom GBB 20

Tokyo Marui Glock 17 GBB 23

Western Arms Beretta Elite 2 GBB 25

Western Arms Para Ordnance SCW HRT (Black) GBB 25

Tokyo Marui Steyr GB NBB 25

KSC STI 5.5 Hybrid Limited GBB 25

Western Arms Colt 1911 US Army GBB 25

 

I don't think it's any coincidence that most are WA guns (only custom guns are in amongst them and Tanaka's Magna system powered Luger which little moving mass), although TM's guns are getting better and the 4.3 Hi-Capa and Glock are perfectly good perfomers (The accuracy of the Steyr's amazing, too, considering it's an ancient NBB design with a heavy trigger)

 

 

Cheers.

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The other thing of to possibly note-

 

No one person is alike, and that the groups that Snowman may achieve may not be what you achieve is certainly not what I achieve (I got better groups on a KSC G17 that a lot of his list, but then I had mega sucky groupings on the Steyr GB that he also has on his list)

 

You also (tend) achieve better and better groupings by practicing over and over again with the gbb of your choice, in my experience.

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I think the latter point is definitely true, but my groupings tend to fall (Broadly) in line with other reviews - I've had old and worn KSC G17s mainly so that might account for less than stellar performance there (although I've not seen other old, worn guns perform significantly worse than newer examples of the same thing) and I was surprised by the effectiveness of the Steyr given it's really low price, perhaps I was just lucky...

 

As a validation, DumboRAT's groupings were not a million miles away from mine in similar test conditions with similar guns.

 

That said, it's always possible to be able to beat my groupings or get worse ones - Different people will interact with any given gun's ergonomics differently - and I would never claim to be an excellent shot.

 

Another aspect is that I tend to take my target shots without too much practice with a GBB, deliberately to avoid the familiarity effect.

 

Cheers.

 

PS Just looked at the results from your G17 review you did for my site and your 5 round diameter's is a little bigger (30mm vs 20mm) than my best 4, with an outlier on my behalf, so I suspect that was ###### shooting on my behalf :)

 

Just goes to prove that bare numbers rarely tell the whole story :)

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The TM1911 arrived today. A quick gas up and 10 shots across the office into a paper target surprised me. It is actually more accurate than I had expected. It really put the shots exactly where I pointed. Previous experience is with a KSC USP45 and the WA S&W 1911. The TM is well ahead on accuracy.

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Ive owned a few TM Gas blowbacks over the years, but I have had the most experience with Marui's 1911 series. Both M1911a1's Ive owned shot very accurately out of the box. I am now the proud owner of an MEU, and the raised sights make it so much easier to line up on a target than the a1 government sights. I have yet to skirmish with it just yet, but I would def go for the MEU. I am very happy with mine so far.

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well, gosh, doesn't the memory play tricks.

Sorry Snowman.. Don't I feel like a futz (I do remember doing some real good groups for it, but it must have been done post-review. Oh well, it don't count :) )

 

Hmm. Mayhaps I should do another review. But what of. Hmm.

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I suggest a look on Western Arms. Their models are the reference on AIPSC. Very high priced of cause.

WA being the norm in practical shooting is a bit of old information. I'm a member of Hong Kong SDU and I've been shooting with these people for two years now, and the Tokyo Marui Hi-Capa has taken over and become the norm. The Western Arms that are still in use ( by a small number of maniacs :D ) are Open division guns with parts that are not available for TM, and the hop-up is disabled because the old WA hop-up was that bad. Shooters avoid the SCW because it provides a hard kick, whereas in a competition you want less kick.

 

I was about to go on a tirade about how recoil has nothing to do with how accurate a gun is for its first shot, but then I started thinking about the relatively low velocities a GBB fires at and that a bb might not have time to clear the barrel before the recoil cycle begins. On a real firearm, more recoil just means you are going to be more afraid of the BANG and more likely to flinch, but the bullet is long gone before you feel the gun jump.

There are some slow motion videos of a TM Hi-Capa cycling, and the BB does make it out of the barrel quickly enough for recoil not to disturb accuracy. Even if the slide does move a little bit, it moves the same amount every time so the POI should not shift because of that.

 

In old JAC and MGC pistols the slide would blow back first and the exhaust gas was used to propel the BB. In those pistols the front of the pistol would "dive" before the BB was shot out, so you had to aim high to get the BB to fly straight, but even that was quite consistent.

 

Snowman: I agree that the ergonomics, trigger pull and that kind of things affect the practical accuracy of a pistol quite a lot. So if you have a pistol that's mechanically accurate from a rest but has really bad other characteristics, it may be difficult to shoot it accurately in an actual situation. But on the flipside if the pistol is not accurate even from a rest, it's not going to be any more accurate even if it fits the hand perfectly and has a crisp trigger pull. The ideal pistol has good handling characteristics but it should also be mechanically accurate. Neither can be overlooked in favor of the other criteria.

 

On the topic, here's a comparison between a couple of 1911 models: The Tokyo Marui M.E.U. Pistol vs. the Socom Gear (WE) Wilson Combat CQB Elite: http://redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airsoft/...il?reviewID=195

 

-Sale

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Snowman: I agree that the ergonomics, trigger pull and that kind of things affect the practical accuracy of a pistol quite a lot. So if you have a pistol that's mechanically accurate from a rest but has really bad other characteristics, it may be difficult to shoot it accurately in an actual situation. But on the flipside if the pistol is not accurate even from a rest, it's not going to be any more accurate even if it fits the hand perfectly and has a crisp trigger pull. The ideal pistol has good handling characteristics but it should also be mechanically accurate. Neither can be overlooked in favor of the other criteria.

 

-Sale

 

Absolutely, BUT few GBBs are really that bad these days in terms of mechanical accuracy (possibly Marushin's LD2 guns?), so the handling takes on an increased importance as the gaps narrow between the various brands.

 

Not so long ago it was said that if a GBB could put 5 shots in a 50mm diameter at 5m it was 'accurate' (I presume this originates from practical shooting?) - As an indication, I have 112 entries in my accuracy results spreadsheet for different guns (a couple of repeats, admittedly, but not many) which are 50mm or less, all sorts of makes, so the truth is probably that MOST current GBBs are OK for the kind of use the OP requires, although the 5m test doesn't address the issue of range and trying to make hits at 25m (a whole different case, where the hop-up becomes the most important factor and where TM seem to excel).

 

Cheers

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Absolutely, BUT few GBBs are really that bad these days in terms of mechanical accuracy (possibly Marushin's LD2 guns?), so the handling takes on an increased importance as the gaps narrow between the various brands.

Depends on the subjective need for accuracy. Some are more demanding than others. I'm not saying some guns are unacceptable in their lack of mechanical accuracy... Just that there's an advantage in using a gun that's mechanically more accurate.

 

Main point being: For me it makes sense to check the mechanical accuracy of a pistol from a rest. Even if I don't do anything about it, I want to know the capability of the pistol with the human error minimized. It's part of a process where I isolate things that could affect how I hit.

 

If the pistol produces good accuracy from a bench (or just static off-hand shooting), I know I don't have to worry about mechanical accuracy upgrades. If I don't get good results, I can then blame a gritty trigger pull or bad sights. ;) If the pistol is not accurate, it leaves far less margin for shooter error - even if the error stems from a bad trigger pull.

 

Not so long ago it was said that if a GBB could put 5 shots in a 50mm diameter at 5m it was 'accurate' (I presume this originates from practical shooting?) - As an indication, I have 112 entries in my accuracy results spreadsheet for different guns (a couple of repeats, admittedly, but not many) which are 50mm or less, all sorts of makes, so the truth is probably that MOST current GBBs are OK for the kind of use the OP requires, although the 5m test doesn't address the issue of range and trying to make hits at 25m (a whole different case, where the hop-up becomes the most important factor and where TM seem to excel).

I've thought of 50mm@10m as the threshold of "accurate airsoft pistol". At 5 meters the differences are half the size, and the exact entry holes are always so hard to measure... Come to think of it I've never test-shot a pistol from 5 meters.

 

The OP asked for "the most accurate I can buy". I believe my input should weigh something, because I have quite a high demand for accuracy from an Airsoft pistol. I admit to be much more picky about that than most.

 

For example the TM M.E.U. vs. the SG CQB Elite reviewed at Redwolf. The groupings presented are 25mm and 45mm respectively, from 8 meters. Now, for most skirmishers I admit that the CQB Elite would suffice. But if someone asks for the best accuracy, I'd recommend the M.E.U. in a heartbeat.

 

-Sale

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I had another go at thinking about this subject. I can't edit so I'll just make another one.

 

Basically there are two sets of features that we are discussing here: Mechanical accuracy, and practical accuracy.

 

Mechanical accuracy should be compared with the human factor eliminated as far as possible.

Practical accuracy should be compared by letting an expert shooter fire the weapon off-hand.

 

These are independent of each other, so we can combine four different weapon types out of these:

 

Type A: Good handling and mechanical accuracy

Type B: Poor handling, good mechanical accuracy

Type C: Good handling, poor mechanical accuracy

Type D: Poor handling, poor mechanical accuracy

 

Our question is whether type B or C is preferable, if you can't have A.

 

The differences in mechanical accuracy between various reputable models are quite small, but I insist that the difference is there. No matter who holds the weapon, they can never help the mechanical accuracy by changing their shooting style.

 

The fluctiation of practical accuracy depends a lot on the shooter: While some models may have worse handling and ergonomics than others, a good shooter is able to adapt to those and still produce a good accuracy. If the shooter is an expert, chances are the difference in practical performance becomes very narrow. It is also a somewhat subjective matter, so it's hard to make objective observations of the "shootability" of any given pistol.

 

I have shot Airsoft Practical shooting with a TM Glock 17 for quite some time now, with very good success. It is not quite as accurate as my tuned Hi-Capa, but I get consistently better hit factors (score divided by time) with the G17, so using that is a no-brainer in skirmishes and practical shooting. Can I say the Hi-Capa has inferior handling because of this? I don't think I can. However, for static precision shooting I would definitely choose the Hi-Capa instead.

 

Enter the TM P226: I started using this pistol six weeks ago, and there was an immediate a big drop-off in my hit factor. The grip angle is different (not inferior, but I'm just not used to it yet), the reset is longer and the trigger pull is different. It is mechanically just as accurate as the Glock 17, but I just don't get the hit factors I used to. I don't want to think that the P226 is inferior because of this. It's just that I'm not adapted to it yet.

 

If the difference in mechanical accuracy is small but I think the issues with practical accuracy stem from the shooter rather than the pistol, where does that lead us?

 

Step 1: Pick a pistol

Step 2: Learn how to shoot it

 

Cheers,

Sale

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Good statement. Like that aproach. ;)

 

A Glock of course has some very specific handling issues. As you say, take a 1911 or a P226 compared to a Glock, you have completly different feeling.

 

I have a Glock 19, a Marui P226 and some 1911s. With my Glock I have to pull straight forward quite hard to align the sights.

With a 1911 I feel more comfortable, but I had to practice the alignemt quite some time til it worked out. I'd say, the aligning position of the Glock is easier to find.

 

Compared to Glock and 1911s, the grip on the P226 is quite low and the distance between the hand and the top of slide and rear sight is pretty high.

 

But it's all a question of practice and getting used to it.

 

I'd say, you can make nothing wrong with Marui P226, G17, Hicapas, 1911 and MEU. If you have the chance to test out some Western Arms, take the chance. And if you get one for a good price, take it. I recommend snowmans pistol review resource … very elaborated, informational and extremly helpful to me. That's where he took his infos from.

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Depends on the subjective need for accuracy. Some are more demanding than others. I'm not saying some guns are unacceptable in their lack of mechanical accuracy... Just that there's an advantage in using a gun that's mechanically more accurate.

 

...

 

The OP asked for "the most accurate I can buy". I believe my input should weigh something, because I have quite a high demand for accuracy from an Airsoft pistol. I admit to be much more picky about that than most.

 

-Sale

 

Fair point - I tend to automatically think of the usual forum requirement for 'hit a person at 20m' - But, as you say, that's not what the OP asked for and Practical Shooting does set high demands on accuracy.

 

Cheers.

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Alot of you may disagree with me on this one. But out of the pistols I have had in the past, I think the most accurate I have seen was a Magnatech 1911 using .25 bbs. It had a nice straight flat trajectory out to around 150 feet using green gas and was always consistent from shot to shot. Now this isnt the highest quality or precision airsoft pistol but the hop up was exceptionally good to me (especially for a WA).

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good points, mates.

 

with mechanical accuracy just about equal for all the quality gbbs out there. it's ergonomics and trigger pull that matter most for me. don't do idpa/ipsc so i cycle through my gbbs and take a few moments to get my grip right when i do targets. each one requires each own particular grip style, i've found, for the sights to line up right when you put the pistol up to shoot.

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