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Tokyo Marui M4 PMC Limited Edition


Sturmjager

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Can't we get something new from one of these airsoft manufacturers? Why is it they have no problem releasing dozens of cosmetic variants of the most basic guns, yet when it comes to producing different models of guns they just... die?

 

I can answer that one- It's called rationalized design and lean manufacturing... You pick a design which allows the maximum design life by having a modular construction around the central basic core.

 

Essentially, TM can produce this 'new' PMC M4 using about 75% of the components it already makes for the rest of it's M4 range, as well as still being able to produce the earlier M4s... They only need to knock out mould/dies for the 'extra' bits, which is much cheaper than retooling for a totally new design (like the P90 or AUG or Thompson)...One single plastic injection moulding tool for something like the body is a major investment to buy and maintain- your talking £25,000 minimum for typical airsoft parts...

 

It makes sense because if the PMC model doesn't sell as well as they want it to, then they don't have dead stock in stores- they can simple get the assembly line building M4a1s..or S-Systems...Or SR16s...Or M4RIS....

 

Even better, since the PMC parts will interchange with their already existing M4/M16 model range, the design department can cook up some 'limited edition' parts-bin-specials to sell, without having to set up new production lines or assembly lines...

 

What's not to like? From a business accounting and stock management point of view it's sensible....from the jaded consumers point of view it's not so great- but flip back to my previous comment: TM have a captive audience and the poor old Japanese public WILL rush to buy the new M4 PMC simply because it's new and easier to obtain than an import.

 

While we think of TM as being "The Big Manufacturer", compared to people like Yamaha, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi and others they are TINY....TM can't afford to knock out a model that few buy and even worse, TM itself can't iteratively change to bring out new models- Look at the P90 and AUG: there are basically 2 models- one with a scope, one with a rail....short of the colour of the stock, that's pretty much it.... Compare that to the MP5 range and M4 range: the oppurtunity to copy each new iteration allows you to evolve you product portfolio without the risk of dead stock sat in your warehouse, costing you rent on the space...

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I can answer that one- It's called rationalized design and lean manufacturing... You pick a design which allows the maximum design life by having a modular construction around the central basic core.

 

Essentially, TM can produce this 'new' PMC M4 using about 75% of the components it already makes for the rest of it's M4 range, as well as still being able to produce the earlier M4s... They only need to knock out mould/dies for the 'extra' bits, which is much cheaper than retooling for a totally new design (like the P90 or AUG or Thompson)...One single plastic injection moulding tool for something like the body is a major investment to buy and maintain- your talking £25,000 minimum for typical airsoft parts...

 

It makes sense because if the PMC model doesn't sell as well as they want it to, then they don't have dead stock in stores- they can simple get the assembly line building M4a1s..or S-Systems...Or SR16s...Or M4RIS....

 

Even better, since the PMC parts will interchange with their already existing M4/M16 model range, the design department can cook up some 'limited edition' parts-bin-specials to sell, without having to set up new production lines or assembly lines...

 

What's not to like? From a business accounting and stock management point of view it's sensible....from the jaded consumers point of view it's not so great- but flip back to my previous comment: TM have a captive audience and the poor old Japanese public WILL rush to buy the new M4 PMC simply because it's new and easier to obtain than an import.

 

While we think of TM as being "The Big Manufacturer", compared to people like Yamaha, Kawasaki Heavy Industries, Mitsubishi and others they are TINY....TM can't afford to knock out a model that few buy and even worse, TM itself can't iteratively change to bring out new models- Look at the P90 and AUG: there are basically 2 models- one with a scope, one with a rail....short of the colour of the stock, that's pretty much it.... Compare that to the MP5 range and M4 range: the oppurtunity to copy each new iteration allows you to evolve you product portfolio without the risk of dead stock sat in your warehouse, costing you rent on the space...

 

This is a very good point. I guess they though that the MEU and 74U would be fine for now and do more interesting things later.

 

TM do have many reasons for making yet another M4, as do the rest of the companies out there.

 

They sell.

 

In TM's case, this was pretty much released for the Jap market if you ask me. I'm no clone lover, in fact I'm a huge fan high quality.

 

But I'm talking Real Sword/VFC quality. Like a real gun quality. Not "high quality ABS plastic". Really, if I had this gun, I would swap out the body, stock, and front end. And upgrade the ###### out of the gearbox. Not much TM would be left.

 

And in the US, a 280 FPS gun is going to have problems with hitting people even at half way decent range. The opfor will hear the gun go off, duck, and the BB will miss. While most other guns are shooting 400 FPS and nailing the guy with the 280 FPS TM.

 

I'm sorry, I am really tired about hearing how cool TM was, they are not cool any more. They do not impress me, VFC does, G&G does, real sword really does. Heck even JG impresses me sometimes.

 

 

 

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A CAR-15 re-release its not, its just another M4

 

What, are you retarded? Have you ever SEEN a CAR 15? This is exactly the same, different flash hider, added R.I.S., but the same.

 

http://k43.pbase.com/o6/20/13420/1/7136229...hVs.tmcar15.jpg

 

Also, for people saying TM aren't the innovators anymore... Why do you think the ACM guns are called *clones*?

 

:rolleyes:

 

Fair enough, they might bring out different models that TM don't do, but they haven't innovated anything; they've taken an existing system, CLONED FROM A TM, and stick it in a new body shell.

 

On the odd occasion something original comes out, it inevitably has major flaws that wouldn't have been there had a company like TM made the product first.

 

Ben.

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Sorry to say Labyrinth but I am finding your 'this is a CAR-15 re release' hard to accept and I think you are taking the defense of TM a little bit too seriously.

 

The upper receiver on the PMC is clearly wrong, the barrel looks the wrong length, the CAR-15 stock had a limited telestock capability (which is what makes the CAR-15 the CAR-15) while the stock on the PMC is just the stubby type that H+K developed iirc. As far as I am aware the slip ring and foregrips - other defining features of the CAR-15 are not available on the market anymore so this gun simply isn't in any real way a CAR-15 not can it be easily converted into one.

 

TM aren't as innovative as they used to be, sure they've made every gearbox type out there but why are we still using open trigger switches after 17 years? Even JG have started shipping their AUGs with Extreme Fire style AB mosfets (as the design is open source) - I'm sure (to play a stereotype) the Japanese would be able to knock out mosfet/microswitched guns with much higher QC than a clone manufacturer. Sure it would cost more but thats the sort of innovation from a manufacturer I would gladly pay for.

 

However, because TM has a somewhat xenophobic business attitude (I hear it generally goes with the territory) their own development is being stunted by the relatively weak domestic demands put on their hardware even when compared to the UK where we have anything from 425fps semi auto snipers to guns running at 30+ rounds a second on lipols - a power source with battery chemistry that TM never anticipated being used considering their manuals still advertise the use of NiCad!

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Also, for people saying TM aren't the innovators anymore... Why do you think the ACM guns are called *clones*?

 

:Zzz: not that old chestnut......look, yay yay for TM they invented the AEG gearbox....fanfare, street parade and fizzy pop for everyone.....now, can we move on?

 

The TM type gearbox is an industry standard, no one is disputing that fact.....but "putting it in a different body" as you so casually put it, seems to be something that TM can't do, or won't do....so they lose the crown.

 

Not to mention the innovations that have taken the TM gearbox and made it into a better performing beast than what TM knocks out.

 

However, I have a feeling that you will argue this point till the cows come home, going in circles mentioning the same old tired excuses that seem to keep this company on tick over outside the island they seem to love so dear.

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Sorry to say Labyrinth but I am finding your 'this is a CAR-15 re release' hard to accept and I think you are taking the defense of TM a little bit too seriously.

 

The upper receiver on the PMC is clearly wrong, the barrel looks the wrong length, the CAR-15 stock had a limited telestock capability (which is what makes the CAR-15 the CAR-15) while the stock on the PMC is just the stubby type that H+K developed iirc. As far as I am aware the slip ring and foregrips - other defining features of the CAR-15 are not available on the market anymore so this gun simply isn't in any real way a CAR-15 not can it be easily converted into one.

 

Exactly, good post mate

 

Labyrinth, how about you do your research before you gob off at others and call them retarded? :waggle:

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But I'm talking Real Sword/VFC quality. Like a real gun quality. Not "high quality ABS plastic". Really, if I had this gun, I would swap out the body, stock, and front end. And upgrade the ###### out of the gearbox. Not much TM would be left.

 

And in the US, a 280 FPS gun is going to have problems with hitting people even at half way decent range. The opfor will hear the gun go off, duck, and the BB will miss. While most other guns are shooting 400 FPS and nailing the guy with the 280 FPS TM.

 

Ironically I've seen more guns broken that were metal then I have that are ABS. Also, how is it that players in the UK, which have the same engagement distences that we do, not have problems with 280fps TM guns? Our local site has a 1 joule rule yet when I go to any other op around the country I don't have a problem engaging high fps players. Weird. Learn to rely on skill not on the gun.

 

Also TM aren't innovaters? You guys realize that this PMC is a limited edition. IE it won't be around that long. I don't see why people are complaining, I remember back in the day when you had one choice of M4, one M16, one AK, ect... You don't see people complaining when CA brings out millions of armalite variants that are all going to fail within a week. BUT THEY ARE METAL!

 

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This is hardly limited edition by the way. JBU makes that fore end and is a replica of a uni produced by Olympic Arms - you can build this yourself from any other armalite with the right stock and barrel.

 

Hell, just buy a clone stubby killer, the JBU fore-end, a noveske and the right flip up sights and bam, same thing.

 

http://www.redwolfairsoft.com/redwolf/airs...il?prodID=21927

 

 

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Guys, I think you will find this has much more in common with the CAR 15 than the Stubby Killer. I never said it was EXACTLY the CAR 15... If you want to pick over details such as the slip ring and foregrip (even though I already acknowledged the added R.I.S. in an earlier post ;)), go ahead.

 

My point was, it's an updated CAR 15, a great little gun that hasn't been seen for a long time. It looks nothing like a Stubby Killer, or a clone of one.

 

I think you'll find TM have had a few more breakthrough innovations than the 'AEG gearbox'.

 

I'm not even a TM fanboy. I mainly use gas guns, actually. Just don't like to see all the clone-lovers bashing a company who continue to lead the market. Fair enough, their target demographic may be the Japanese community, but the guns they release are still better quality than most of the stuff we get over here.

 

Ben.

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Apart from the fact its an Armalite and that it has a thick flash hider...there are no even basic resemblances to the CAR-15! The CAR-15s 'schtick' was that it was basically an M16A1 with a scale-shortened foregrip, and an extending full-stock. It was a mini-me to the VN/A1.

 

This has no resemblance to the A4. Your analogy is total fail.

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Having actually met the owners of Tokyo Marui I can tell you something that is fact.

 

Tokyo Marui do not care about the international market, they release weapons based somewhat on Japanese customer needs. Marui have no real stratergy in regards to models released as its basically the owners choice, if he sees a gun he likes thats the next one they make, period and its all about cash cows.....why make a model that won't be a huge seller here in Japan?

 

Japans market is basically a closed market, we pay about the same price here for a Marui as you guys do for a clone, however we pay premium for Hong Kong or Taiwanese based manufacturers....if you can get them at your local shop.

 

As an international player with access to the international market I think the M4-PMC is exactly what others have stated it as ...a clone of what was already a hit on the international market. Looking internally to the Japan Market it will sell like hot cakes as its giving the Japanese player exactly what they want, but can't get.

 

 

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this is nothing like the CAR15. at all. its just short.

can we move on? its just another stubby little M4 that wound probably never work in reality, but airsofters are for some reason obsessed with tiny little AEGs.

ANYWAY... are there any other pics of it released yet?

-Joe

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Guys, I think you will find this has much more in common with the CAR 15 than the Stubby Killer. I never said it was EXACTLY the CAR 15... If you want to pick over details such as the slip ring and foregrip (even though I already acknowledged the added R.I.S. in an earlier post ;)), go ahead.

 

My point was, it's an updated CAR 15, a great little gun that hasn't been seen for a long time. It looks nothing like a Stubby Killer, or a clone of one.

 

An updated CAR 15 would be the CEO of TM having a light bulb appear above his head and demanding the production of a CAR-15 with a metal body and CA type polymers - I think the phrase you are looking for is 're imaged' - however the CAR-15 is such an iconic weapon that any attempt to do this is doomed to failure.

 

I think you'll find TM have had a few more breakthrough innovations than the 'AEG gearbox'.

 

Yes. Sale already informed us of these innovations and no one has denied this.

 

I'm not even a TM fanboy. I mainly use gas guns, actually. Just don't like to see all the clone-lovers bashing a company who continue to lead the market. Fair enough, their target demographic may be the Japanese community, but the guns they release are still better quality than most of the stuff we get over here.

 

I wasn't aware that a TM in transit to the UK went through a metamorphosis in its shipping container into an inferior gun as you seem to be inferring.

 

I am far from a clone lover, I admire TM for their pistols and snipers but TM AEGs as a whole don't really do anything for me and if I don't like something because it looks as if TM stirred the front end of an M4 receiver in the parts bin cauldron and marketed whatever came out as a 'PMC' gun thats apparently limited edition its just something all the MGS and TM fan boy kiddies are going to buy.

 

Basically, I couldn't care who made it but producing something I could build myself and build better from a different manufacturer's gun to get the features I want and then trying to ride the 'we're TM, its got a cool acronym in the name and its limited edition' doesn't do much to lower my view of the company, but it does annoy me that they couldn't bring out a truly updated model of a classic - Sig 551 with metal body and mechanical 3 round burst anyone?

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"Yes. Sale already informed us of these innovations and no one has denied this."

 

Maybe, but it strikes me that a few people who've posted in here don't appreciate exactly how much TM has invested into advancing the sport. We don't have to all be fanboys, but I can't stand people who trash talk in favour of clones for nothing.

 

"I wasn't aware that a TM in transit to the UK went through a metamorphosis in its shipping container into an inferior gun as you seem to be inferring."

 

No, although I can see why you thought I meant that. I'm actually seeing less TM's on the field, and more inferior clones. But I 'spose that's down to the export prices, and TM's refusal to cater for a European or American distribution, to lower the total costs. Their choice, though.

 

Ben.

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I'm actually seeing less TM's on the field, and more inferior clones. But I 'spose that's down to the export prices, and TM's refusal to cater for a European or American distribution, to lower the total costs. Their choice, though.

 

Ben.

 

Dude, ay some point in your airsoft career you're going to realise that the "clones" are simply not inferior...but probably on a par with TM. Why?

 

Lets compare a Dboys M4 with the same type of M4 from TM.

 

The TM comes in firing around 250 -280fps....which for the UK = fail, so you start upgrading the gearbox, spring, etc so that it will do around 328 - 340fps.

 

The Dboys comes in hot firing around 400fps....which for the UK = fail, so you downgrade the spring so that it fires around 328 - 340fps....but thats just the spring mind you.

 

Going back to the TM, hmm look at all that shiny plastic....oh I know, I'll upgrade the body and grips, possibly even the stock so that the amount of black bling doesn't blind my team mates.

 

Now, I wouldn't be alone in these basic mods, would I? And taking the comparison further, you might even get a tight bore for both, change the hop unit, upgrade the wiring...the list goes on....but heres the slap for TM.....price....how much cheaper is the Dboys?

 

So saying the clones are inferior is a bit of an open statement, that seriously needs to be qualified! If you're going to run with a stock rifle and NEVER change it, yeah perhaps the TM is better, and certainly as a back up rifle you can't go wrong.....but then, if TM is only your back up rifle, what do you use as a primary....yeah, you got it, CA, G&P, ICS, STAR, G&G, VFC, Systema.....why? becasue they're BETTER!

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Some of the companies you mentioned aren't exactly clone companies, though, are they? CA? VFC? Come on. Unless I misunderstood, that is.

 

Primary is Tanaka :P

 

Lets take a look.

 

I'm going to use the term 'Win' here to represent an excellent quality, reliable, and generally great all-round component. 'Fail' being the opposite, of course.

 

TM Motor. Win.

TM Gearbox. Win.

TM HOP Unit. Win.

TM Plastic Externals. Meh. These are ok... better quality than clone externals, but not metal.

TM Metal Externals. Meh. These are again, better than most clones, but not as nice as some brands.

 

Clone Motor. Fail.

Clone Gearbox. Meh. Upgraded, sure, but unreliable. Terrible quality inside, and too much grease on most of them.

Clone HOP Unit. Fail.

Clone Plastic Externals. Fail.

Clone Metal Externals. Meh. Not terrible. Probably made of the same pot metal everyone else uses, but there is no quality in the finish.

 

It's also (or it was) pretty much traditional to have at least one Tokyo Marui A.E.G.

 

Also, not sure what sites you play at, but a stock T.M. isn't Fail. I play at a nice open woodland site, and you don't often see guns being outranged by any other guns ('cept sniper rifles!). It's more to do with who is holding it and how they're playing.

 

Ben.

 

 

 

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Dude, ay some point in your airsoft career you're going to realise that the "clones" are simply not inferior...but probably on a par with TM. Why?

Why? Because its *fruitcage* easy to just copy a gun and make some bits metal and improve the strength of materials when you don't have to go through the whole R&D process.

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Well I can see this debate going on forever.......I guess if you guys want to support this release so bad then do so. I don't need to convince you how to spend your money....

 

Personally it doesn't rock my world, not when you have rifles like the Stubby Killer out there and the VFC PDW coming up, not to mention G&Ps TANK.....I'll spend my money on metal and UK useful Fps....but thats me and thats my choice.

 

You guys enjoy your expensive plastic now. I'll try not to shoot you too often on the playing field, especially as you won't be able to hit me back, I'll be too far out of your range :D

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You guys enjoy your expensive plastic now. I'll try not to shoot you too often on the playing field, especially as you won't be able to hit me back, I'll be too far out of your range :D

 

And that's precisely why I have a Prometheus inner barrel, a set of Systema bushings, and a Systema M90 spring installed on my TM G3SG/1. A round propelled through a tightbore with 360 FPS of power behind it is enough to reach out and touch someone... even if that someone is armed with an A&K SR-25.

 

And oh, my G3SG/1 has been externally upgraded with a CA upper/lower receiver + cocking tube set, so no worries should I hit the dirt for cover.

 

And in case the G3SG/1's battery runs out, I have a TM Glock 17 (equipped with Guarder's excellent full external enhancement kit) strapped to my side and it gives me a reasonable chance even against long arms. Anyhow, it would only have to last me for the remainder of the hour-long game...

 

... For I have my "Blood Diamond Custom" TM M733 waiting in the back of the car, which is again equipped with a new inner barrel, a set of new bushings, a new spring, and a replacement upper/lower receiver kit (this one courtesy of G&P).

 

My point is, as long as the battery remains charged and the magazine remains loaded, a TM weapon (even when it has been upgraded) will fire.

 

You can go and enjoy your cheap metal for now. I'll try not to shoot you at all in the field, especially as you won't able to return fire, for your powerful Chinese-made weapon has misfed/jammed/misfired/stripped its gears/or just generally crapped out on you in the critical situation. :D

 

No offense, but people like you remind me why I prefer TMs whenever possible.

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Utty, somewhere in this thread it says that it has a plastic body (don't blame you for not wading throught it all :rolleyes:), and for reasons already moaned about I don't really think TM could be bothered to research a new gearbox or mag type. However, anyone who knows better, feel free to surprise me! :D

 

Stu.

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