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Hiro

Harder BBs damages materials more.

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The hardness of the BB has no bearing on how well it penetrates human skin and flesh!!! I honestly can't be bothered to reiterate the reasons why. Normal BBs are just as capable as these ones.

 

All this scaremongering :( it's just like reading the tabloids.

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How about this, whoever WANTS to use these things, volunteer yourself to be shot at with these and show that they're no worse than your normal plastic BB.

 

Time to put up for people who do not wish to err on the side of safety. ;)

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glass BB's are dangerous sure, if they break and shatter you get glass shards.

Bioval BB's are hard but they aren't made of glass so they're not as dangerous.

as far as "doing more damage" it sounds like they do more damage to things like glass windshields but as been mentioned already when they come in contact with things that are relevant to airsoft like skin, camo shirts, teeth etc. you should expect the exact same result as a plastic BB that's the same weight.

Biovals are a new thing, I know, but don't be scared of them guys ;)

Tell me, why would a harder material be bad for glass, but not for teeth?

 

Glass = harder than tooth, thus tooth has to give way during colision.

Tooth = harder than plastic, thus plastic has to give way during colision.

 

This thread just goes to show that muzzle energy and weight are not the only thing to calculate when it comes to damage done. The glass (or bioval) is harder than plastic, and therefor causes more damage.

 

Imagine if you will, what causes more damage... A 3 lb hard rubber ball hitting you in the face or a 3 lb glass ball hitting you in the face. The rubber is going to deform and absorb most of the energy that is being distributed, while still hurting you a little. The glass is going to keep it's shape since it's harder than your face, and your face will absorb more of the energy that is being distributed.

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How about this, whoever WANTS to use these things, volunteer yourself to be shot at with these and show that they're no worse than your normal plastic BB.

 

Time to put up for people who do not wish to err on the side of safety. ;)

 

LOL I was about to suggest someone gets shot with these and normal bbs to say which hurts more, if any

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The hardness of the BB has no bearing on how well it penetrates human skin and flesh!!! I honestly can't be bothered to reiterate the reasons why. Normal BBs are just as capable as these ones.

 

All this scaremongering :( it's just like reading the tabloids.

 

Well, skin penetration can occur; and while rare I would argue that a glass bb the same weight would pose a more significant risk of achieving penetration. However I think it would require a "perfect storm" of circumstances to have that happen. A serious test should probably be performed on some ballistics gel or something like that...

 

 

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if these BBBMAX are strong to dent/break/go into glass; would it be an assumption it could dent the pot metal AEG bodies?? (not gana ask skin; since has been stated an know skin has "give" to it)

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The hardness of the BB has no bearing on how well it penetrates human skin and flesh!!! I honestly can't be bothered to reiterate the reasons why. Normal BBs are just as capable as these ones.

 

All this scaremongering :( it's just like reading the tabloids.

TEETH!!!

 

I hate to yell, but come on, people. How many times do I have to say it before it's going to get through that I'm not talking about skin? These will result in shattered teeth, shattered scopes, penetrated mesh goggles, fractured finger bones, and other broken equipment. They won't do anything more than usual to skin, or any other soft material for that matter, but skin isn't the only thing that ever gets shot. Sometimes hard things get shot. And when two hard things hit, energy has to be dispersed into the softer one. Your TEETH are softer than these bbs.

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What if they contact bone ?

I've had the displeasure of digging a .43 BB out of a mates arm when he ND'd into the underside of his forearm, that BB was barely visible it was so far in,

these things are dangerous, with no deflection they will keep going and all the muppets will be firing them, in this insurance claims rich time we live in I hope site owners think hard about not allowing these to be used, mad concept for use against living things.

 

How about this, whoever WANTS to use these things, volunteer yourself to be shot at with these and show that they're no worse than your normal plastic BB.

 

Time to put up for people who do not wish to err on the side of safety. ;)

 

let me put this into terms that maybe even you guys might understand..

would you rather get cracked in the head with a wooden baseball bat that weighed 5 pounds or an aluminum one that weighed 5 pounds?

don't think about what what kind of damage each type of baseball bat would do to a giant 50 foot tall teddy bear made of chocolate fudge.

just focus on my first question and give me your answer.

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let me put this into terms that maybe even you guys might understand..

would you rather get cracked in the head with a wooden baseball bat that weighed 5 pounds or an aluminum one that weighed 5 pounds?

don't think about what what kind of damage each type of baseball bat would do to a giant 50 foot tall teddy bear made of chocolate fudge.

just focus on my first question and give me your answer.

:rolleyes: Straw man arguement.

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Imagine if you will, what causes more damage... A 3 lb hard rubber ball hitting you in the face or a 3 lb glass ball hitting you in the face. The rubber is going to deform and absorb most of the energy that is being distributed, while still hurting you a little. The glass is going to keep it's shape since it's harder than your face, and your face will absorb more of the energy that is being distributed.

 

comparing rubber and glass balls to plastic BB's and Bioval BB's doesn't make sense.

you are talking about completely different materials.

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TEETH!!!

 

I hate to yell, but come on, people. How many times do I have to say it before it's going to get through that I'm not talking about skin? These will result in shattered teeth, shattered scopes, penetrated mesh goggles, fractured finger bones, and other broken equipment. They won't do anything more than usual to skin, or any other soft material for that matter, but skin isn't the only thing that ever gets shot. Sometimes hard things get shot. And when two hard things hit, energy has to be dispersed into the softer one. Your TEETH are softer than these bbs.

 

so no ones teeth have ever been shot out playing airsoft before Biovals came out?

the risk is the same, a regular BB will damage teeth just as quick.

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I'll take the 'get shot' challenge punky because frankly, alot of you in here are talking sh!t.

 

honestly what do you expect to happen?

the hard plastic .27g BB will bounce off harmlessly and the .27g Super Evil Bioval will embed itself in your skin?

think hard about this one.

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you guys just "don't get it" but its alright tho.

as long as none of you have glass skin I think you'll be OK to play airsoft with Biovals ;)

Think about it this way, since I just "don't get" what "hardness" is:

 

If you took a .20g hard rubber bb and a .20g plastic bb and fired them both at 350fps at your tooth, the hard rubber bb would do less damage to your tooth because it absorbs most of the energy of the collision. However the plastic bb would have a good chance at destroying the tooth because it absorbs a very similar amount of energy from the impact as the tooth does.

 

If you did the same test with a glass or bioval bb, the tooth would shatter because it would absorb almost all of the energy.

 

When it comes to skin, the difference doesn't matter. The skin would absorb almost all of the energy regardless of the material (rubber, plastic, glass, wood, metal, plutonium), because the skin has a much lower harness factor than any of those materials. But we aren't talking about skin. We're talking about teeth, scopes, mesh goggles, plastic parts, etc.

 

Do you understand why a BB ricochets off of a tree, plops off of you and shatters on a rock? Or do I just not understand?

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so no ones teeth have ever been shot out playing airsoft before Biovals came out?

the risk is the same, a regular BB will damage teeth just as quick.

I shattered a tooth on a plastic bb. It happens. But it will happen more with glass/bioval, because they have more HARDNESS. Look that word up. You obviously don't understand what it means.

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honestly what do you expect to happen?

the hard plastic .27g BB will bounce off harmlessly and the .27g Super Evil Bioval will embed itself in your skin?

think hard about this one.

 

I expect there to be no difference, since I agree with your points...

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Glass = harder than tooth, thus tooth has to give way during colision.

Tooth = harder than plastic, thus plastic has to give way during colision.

 

:unsure:

 

If plastic has to give way during collision with teeth, then why have so many people had teeth chipped / shot out with plastic BB's?

 

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let me put this into terms that maybe even you guys might understand..

would you rather get cracked in the head with a wooden baseball bat that weighed 5 pounds or an aluminum one that weighed 5 pounds?

 

 

Neither since I have been given the choice,

Basic physics is what matters, and the harder item is going to put a lot more energy on impact than the item which is slightly frangable, albeit most BB are pretty damn hard as is, but they break normally when they hit a hard surface, they will penetrate skin, but these things that brek into a laminated windscreen, how can you possibly say they are safe, not everyone is soft in the head like some ¬_¬ and I'd like mine unbroken, I play for fun not for injury and always prefer to play it safe, I'd rather avoid the risks and be safe rather than sorry.

 

 

Edit for reply to RAF : Imagine a plastic (brick dust) BB breaking/chipping a tooth, yes ouch, now imagine the glass (like) BB punching a hole through the teeth (possible)

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TEETH!!!

 

I hate to yell, but come on, people. How many times do I have to say it before it's going to get through that I'm not talking about skin? These will result in shattered teeth, shattered scopes, penetrated mesh goggles, fractured finger bones, and other broken equipment. They won't do anything more than usual to skin, or any other soft material for that matter, but skin isn't the only thing that ever gets shot. Sometimes hard things get shot. And when two hard things hit, energy has to be dispersed into the softer one. Your TEETH are softer than these bbs.

 

All of which have been broken due to 1J plastic BB impacts, I had to lend my chronograph to marshals when theirs died to verify the muzzle velocity of a gun that shot someone's tooth out at a woodland game - turned out they were running at 320 with .2s that were loading into the gun by the marshals.

 

However, on the flip side of things, although I understand the physics behind muzzle velocity, momentum and all the rest of it, I am not particularly well versed in materials science bar the fact that as you say, when too hard objects collide the weaker of the two will suffer. When you factor in the quirkier nature of physics in airsoft I would like to see someone acquire a bag of these and fire them at 5m from a UK spec AEG into a number of materials and then from the same range fire some plastic BBs (.28s as they are the closest in weight) and report what difference in damage is caused if any.

 

I imagine only then will the hoo-ha die down.

 

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I expect there to be no difference, since I agree with your points...

Then prove it.

 

As people here are fond of saying, put up or shut up. ;)

 

I personally am not making any claims either way, other than "err on the side of safety"

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All of which have been broken due to 1J plastic BB impacts, I had to lend my chronograph to marshals when theirs died to verify the muzzle velocity of a gun that shot someone's tooth out at a woodland game - turned out they were running at 320 with .2s that were loading into the gun by the marshals.

 

However, on the flip side of things, although I understand the physics behind muzzle velocity, momentum and all the rest of it, I am not particularly well versed in materials science bar the fact that as you say, when too hard objects collide the weaker of the two will suffer. When you factor in the quirkier nature of physics in airsoft I would like to see someone acquire a bag of these and fire them at 5m from a UK spec AEG into a number of materials and then from the same range fire some plastic BBs (.28s as they are the closest in weight) and report what difference in damage is caused if any.

 

I imagine only then will the hoo-ha die down.

No because that's what just happened with the glass pictures in the first post of this thread, and there is still hoo-ha.

 

Anyway, yes, plastic bbs break teeth. They also don't break teeth. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. Bioval/glass will break them more often.

 

The point is that when a bb has 1j of energy, and it hits something of equal hardness, .5j of energy is distributed into both the bb and the target. If the target is harder than the bb, more energy is distributed into the bb. If the target is softer than the bb, more energy is absorbed into the target. The question is how much energy something like a tooth can withstand. Sure it may be about as hard as the bb, but how many joules can it handle before shattering? Probably about .5. If the bb is fired from farther away and only has .8j of energy when it hits the tooth and the tooth only absorbs .4j of energy, then the tooth won't shatter. Now if the a glass bb hits with (making up numbers to make a point) 1j, and is twice as hard as the tooth, the softer tooth will absorb .75j, while the bb absorbs .25j. At 1j, this isn't going to matter, because the tooth is broken either way. But if the bb is fired from further away and hits with .8j, the tooth will absorb .6j and the bb will absorb .2. That means that while the plastic BB would have bounced off of the tooth, the glass one still shattered it, and with more force than the plastic bb had 1j.

 

Does that make any sense to anyone? Please?

 

Also, if you take the same idea and figure that a plastic bb distributes .9j to skin keeping .1, a bioval will distribute .95j and keep .05. Not a big deal on skin. Much bigger deal on teeth.

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expvideo - good point about the teeth. i wear full face mostly so i wasn't thinking of that. I'd agree with you there that these might have a higher probability of breaking teeth.

 

A lot of people just aren't thinking hard enough or don't understand materials enough and are reacting too harshly to the sight of bb embedded in glass.

 

See it like this. If a normal bb hits an wall and dents/breaks up or otherwise deforms then some of it's kinetic energy has been used up in the breaking of the bb. The same impact with a bb that doesn't deform (ie BBBmax) means that all the energy that went into deforming the normal bb has to be dissapated into other things, such as into the target or the rebound of the BBBmax.

 

In most airsoft scenarios where a normal bb hits a person's flesh, the bb is not visibly deformed. This shows that none (or very very little) of the energy has gone into deforming the bb and all of it has been transferred into the target and the rebound. Given these situations a BBBmax would not transfer any more energy into the target than a normal bb.

 

The issues come when an impact that does deform the normal bb, usually making a flat spot on the bb. These correspond to all the little round marks on out optics and gear. I agree with the opinion above that a lot of gear might get damaged by these bbs, starting with reddots and scopes :(

 

I think the big issue here isn't the safety aspect (as they failed to penetrate shooting glasses/goggles-can't rememeber which) it's more an issue of whether other players are happy expose their precious optics and other gear to a higher probablity of damage :-S

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Edit for reply to RAF : Imagine a plastic (brick dust) BB breaking/chipping a tooth, yes ouch, now imagine the glass (like) BB punching a hole through the teeth (possible)

 

Ah, then I am wrong. :)

 

I shall continue to poke my nose in for a good read though. :D

 

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