Harder BBs damages materials more.

[Smoke]

Wouldn't that technically require an implant?

 

[/pedantry]

 

LOL, that too!

 

Although like others, I'm not overly keen on having bb's implanted in me.

 

Freak accidents can happen (a team mate of mine got a .43 lodged really quite deep in his jaw on his first skirmish), I think anyone who has skirmished for a long time has seen their fair share of horror stories.

 

My initial reaction to this story was "if you don't want to see them used, make sure your site knows". But the more I read, and think about it - I can't see any particular advantage to them in terms of range and accuracy (someone please correct me if I'm wrong there), and if anything they seem to chew up your AEGs internals.

 

Taking the impact results aside for a minute, can anyone actually comment on whether they indeed offer a significant improvement versus standard bb's, ie a blaster .28 at sensible (yes I know that's subjective) engagement ranges?

 

I'm struggling to see the point in them really - other than possibly for target shooting/BBIPSC where penetration (fnar) can help identify shots on/in a paper target.

[Panzergraf]

The advantage is that these are, AFAIK, the only bio BB's in that weight class.

 

Also, they're transparent.

[Marlowe]

I'm posting this on here short term until I figure out how to get the attached literature displaying on the front page (daddy's's never let me go loose with the crayons before!)

 

Bioval have contacted us and ask that we present the following response:

 

In the interest of player safety and the safeguard of property I hope you will post our response.

 

We do not recommend shooting 0.27g bbs at 560fps or 3 footpounds (170m/s or

4 joules) against car windows since high velocity projectiles will tend to shatter the target into small bits and pieces.

 

The author of the post states that they fired the 0.27g BBBMAX at 170m/s (560 fps) this is equal to approx. 4 joules of energy. Most EU countries have a 1 joule limit and in most game fields there are very strict rules regarding AEG velocities.

 

Evidently, the persons involved in this incident have not read the WARNINGS and MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET that should have been provided to them.

Safety has always been a Bioval priority. Please find attached the WARNING and MATERIAL SAFETY DATA SHEET regarding our products. Please READ THEM and pass them on.

 

The vital points here are:

 

(1) The EU (EN Standard) and USA (ASTM ) standards and laws upon which they are based prohibit the sale and marketing of bbs that shatter upon impact.

The test parameters are very strict but enforcement is very difficult and as you can imagine very few producers respect this norm. The Bioval BBBMAX is over and above the minimum test parameters needed to achieve certification.

 

(2) The BBBMAX was specifically designed for use by Military and Law Enforcement (MILPOL) training centres in the US, Australia and Europe. The specifications are far superior to normal bbs and so are the ballistic properties. Breaking windshields and windows was one of the many requirements. In this respect the BBBMAX has performed to specifications.

 

(3) WE DO NOT RECOMMEND modifying your AEG to fire at over 1 joule. Shooting the 0.27g BBBMAX at 170m/s is extremely dangerous and WILL cause damage on your target.

 

(4) Please use certified full face protection. We suggest you evaluate the same full face protection used by Military and Law Enforcement agencies rated to stop shotgun blasts and other high velocity projectiles and shrapnel.

 

Thanks for your support in our effort to improve the standards and quality of the bb in the sport of Airsoft. It is thanks to this support that we will continue to innovate and bring to you high performance products.

 

Stay cool and play safe!

 

Absolute Best,

Bioval Technologies Switzerland

 

Attached materials discussed are below. I'll just play with live writer and try and get it to load stuff on here.

WARNING.pdf

BBB_MSDS_AA.pdf

BBBMAX_MSDS_AA.pdf

[Smoke]

The advantage is that these are, AFAIK, the only bio BB's in that weight class.

 

Also, they're transparent.

 

Ahhh, of course. Fair point!

 

My apologies, I had honestly failed to take into account the 'bio' factor. So they're safer for the environment.. just not for the players.

 

Funny old world ain't it?

 

EDIT - Marlowe's post seems to make a lot more sense of the situation... So they're not actually designed for 'normal' skirmishing at all then?

[Marlowe]

They certainly seem to be implying that the BBBMax range of ammo isn't designed for the high velocities seen in some European / Asian / American countries. It does also suggest that they're really not suitable for use on live targets with most upgraded single-action rifles (eg bolt-actions, etc).

 

Again, apologies for the hackneyed manner of displaying this for now - I'm not Arnie and would never claim to be the genius he is when it comes to presenting this stuff on the front page effectively.

[Jenkem]

I'm just too broke right now to spend $27 at airsoftNW for the Bioval BBBMax .27 bbs, AND buy a seperate bag of .27 plastic bbs to compare against. Plus paying for a doctor visit to get the x-rays is another $25 with my insurance. That's a $75 test, and I don't really have the money to blow on that. This test may have to wait until I have money again, since I don't see anyone jumping at the offer. If somebody wants to mail a bag of like 100rnds to me, I'll do tests and take pics, but otherwise this is going to have to wait for payday.

 

haha sucks to be you kiddo.

why don't you use that big old brain of yours you've been talking about for the last 8 pages and get a decent job

haha I had to do that, it was too easy.

anyways Biovals are safe because they don't break safety glasses which are the one required piece of gear when playing airsoft.

otherwise when you play a game involving 400fps fully automatic BB guns things like teeth, skin, scopes etc. are all fair game.

its why I wear a shemagh to cover my face, BDU's to cover my arms and gloves to cover my hands.

chipped teeth and broken scopes were a part of airsoft long before Biovals came around and they'll still be a part of airsoft as long as people continues to chase each other around with BB guns.

[Punkypink]

black BBs are just as invisible.

 

As for needing face protection thats rated to stop shotgun blasts... well its plenty obvious they weren't meant to be used in airsoft skirmishing. How well is a Sansei mesh going to stop one of these things I wonder?

 

Now that Bioval themselves have actually officially stated that these things ARE designed and meant to cause more damage, well.... so much for all those who claim its not more damaging than normal BBs.

[Aitch]

So Bioval say they are not safe for use in high powered weapons, I take it you (jenkem) were too busy trying to mock a fellow forum user than to read the info submitted by them 'the manufacturer' the ones who appear to have done the tests so yearned for in this thread.

[Punkypink]

haha sucks to be you kiddo.

why don't you use that big old brain of yours you've been talking about for the last 8 pages and get a decent job

haha I had to do that, it was too easy.

I wouldn't be name calling when my "flawless" logic consists of declaring a projectile ok because ESS ICEs can take hits from them. Why don't you ask someone else to shoot you with .22s?

 

Never really looked highly on people adopt a "im superior" attitude in internet arguments to stoke their sorry ego, esp when their common sense is lacking to begin with.

 

I take it you (jenkem) were too busy trying to mock a fellow forum user than to read the info submitted by them 'the manufacturer' the ones who appear to have done the tests so yearned for in this thread.

Of course. Thats rather obvious really. Between people on both opposing sides we were able to hold a fairly civilized disussion (eg tome, expvideo, hiro). Only Jenkem is continually trying to show how "superior" he is(and failing miserably might I add, the "my safety glasses could take it" bit was utterly hilarious). He might have a decent, or even fantastic job as he claims(with no evidence, more yakkety yak) but you sense that he's trying so hard to show his delusional "superiority" that one wonders if he's dissatisfied with his lot despite a seemingly stable financial situation. We can probably hazard a few guesses, but lets just ignore him and continue the discussion(or what's left of it after the Bioval communique) amongst the people who're actually civilized.

[expvideo]

haha sucks to be you kiddo.

why don't you use that big old brain of yours you've been talking about for the last 8 pages and get a decent job

haha I had to do that, it was too easy.

anyways Biovals are safe because they don't break safety glasses which are the one required piece of gear when playing airsoft.

otherwise when you play a game involving 400fps fully automatic BB guns things like teeth, skin, scopes etc. are all fair game.

its why I wear a shemagh to cover my face, BDU's to cover my arms and gloves to cover my hands.

chipped teeth and broken scopes were a part of airsoft long before Biovals came around and they'll still be a part of airsoft as long as people continues to chase each other around with BB guns.

I have a good full time job, but thanks for that belittling comment. I also live on my own and pay all of my own bills in one of the highest cost of living states in the US, so I have to stick to my budget, and spending an extra $75 recklessly is not responsible. Could I do it? Sure. But it wouldn't be a wise decision.

 

As for the rest of your post, you obviously have no respect for anyone else's safety. Your attitude shows it. We aren't out there to hurt each other, and expecting people to plan on having broken teeth and scopes is not sportsmanly. Sure, these things happen, but they are avoided and considered freak accidents, not considered to be an expectation when walking out on the field. Hell, we could shoot lead pellets at each other and we'd probably be fine, but that doesn't mean that it's ok to do so. The point of airsoft is to have a milsim kind of game while causing minimal pain and damage. Intentionally loading bbs that you know cause more pain and damage is very unsportsmanly.

 

And back to the job thing, go *fruitcage* yourself. My job is my business.

[Marlowe]

Please don't feed the trolls. They'll have their fangs trimmed if they keep biting regardless.

 

I'd really like to keep this debate open, especially seeing as Bioval have shown that they are paying attention to such comments and conscientous enough to respond to concerns about product safety. It'd be a crying shame to have to lock this down just because we allow things to spiral into childish abuse.

 

Can we all agree at least on the fact that we will always have differing opinions, and that what is important is how we express and respect the opinions both of ourselves and others?

[Punkypink]

Please don't feed the trolls. They'll have their fangs trimmed if they keep biting regardless.

 

I'd really like to keep this debate open, especially seeing as Bioval have shown that they are paying attention to such comments and conscientous enough to respond to concerns about product safety. It'd be a crying shame to have to lock this down just because we allow things to spiral into childish abuse.

 

Can we all agree at least on the fact that we will always have differing opinions, and that what is important is how we express and respect the opinions both of ourselves and others?

Hear hear Marlowe.

 

I am glad that Bioval decided to respond. Certainly in light of what and WHO they were designed for, BBBmax are very good at doing what it says on the box. Perhaps there is an advantage when used in a sniping capacity within airsoft, and I'd like to imagine that everyone completely obeys the minimal engagement rule, but we're all human sadly, and know that sometimes instinct rather than maliciousness takes over. I've pesonally witnessed a guy taking a 500fps bolty shot in the forehead... from maybe 5 or 6 ft away. It was a genuine accident during a skirmish, but it was enough to cause quite a bit of bleeding and a massive bump with normal BBs. I'd dare not say with any certainty at all that there would be no damage to the skull if BBBmaxes were used.

[expvideo]

A very simple way to put this into perspective, rather than wood bat vs metal bat, is to take your fist for an example. Let's say you do some experiments with what breaks with your fist. Will flesh break? No. Will glass break? Probably, but it will damage your fist. Will a tooth break? Maybe. Will a scope break? Maybe.

 

Now pretend that your fist is the same size and weight, but made of titanium. Now it is a lot harder. Not heavier. Not faster. Just harder. Let's do the same tests (in our heads of course). Will flesh break? No, but it might bruise more. Will glass break? Yes, easily. Will a tooth break? Yes, easily. Will a scope break? Yes, easily.

 

Hardness matters. That is a very good example of two extremes. A fist is very soft. A titanium fist is very hard. Thus the titanium fist transfers more energy and causes other HARD things to break, but does only marginally different damage to soft tissue. It still carries the same amount of kinetic energy as the flesh fist, but being harder, it transfers more of that energy into the target and less back into the fist.

[Punkypink]

Unfortunately humans aren't just flesh alone, and have many areas where bone is directly underneath skin.

 

Now I am NOT saying it will cause the same sort of damage comparable to my next example, but even with a bullet proof vest without a trauma plate, you can suffer fractured ribs from no penetration of the projectile. I'd love someone to show evidence that firing the BBBmax at close range from at a 1J AEG will not cause any fracture to your average knuckle bone or skull, before I'd accept that as evidence that clothing is adequate protection against unnecessary trauma to the human flesh.

[expvideo]

Unfortunately humans aren't just flesh alone, and have many areas where bone is directly underneath skin.

 

Now I am NOT saying it will cause the same sort of damage comparable to my next example, but even with a bullet proof vest without a trauma plate, you can suffer fractured ribs from no penetration of the projectile. I'd love someone to show evidence that firing the BBBmax at close range from at a 1J AEG will not cause any fracture to your average knuckle bone or skull, before I'd accept that as evidence that clothing is adequate protection against unnecessary trauma to the human flesh.

If I can get my hands on some of these, I would be willing to test the back of the hands and maybe a knuckle, but I'm not testing the skull. I'll also test some soft tissue (like my shoulders) for excessive buising. I have a feeling that the soft tissue won't make a big enough difference to scare people away, but the hands might suffer some minor fracturing. We'll have to see. I've still got a pretty bad welt on my hand from 2 weeks ago from a plastic bb (about 380 fps from about 20 feet) that I'm pretty sure would have done some very minor damage to the bone if it was a harder material.

 

Of course I could always just put a piece of leather over an animal bone, but that wouldn't be as realistic of a test as actually shooting a real hand. Safer sure, but not as much fun.

[Dragon24]

I just wanted to say hi and add my two cents on this post about high speed bbs.

 

An Excel .25g bb shot from a 500fps Systema PTW MAX produces 2.89J of energy at muzzle and over 2.12 foot pounds of force; this is more than enough energy to break bones in the finger, penetrate exposed skin and break airsoft scopes at the (5 -6)Ft distances described by PunkyPink. If we use the BBBMAX in the same 500fps Systema PTW MAX we will only achieve 2.64J of energy at muzzle and less than 1.95 foot pounds of force(the heavier bb will have a lower muzzle fps due to the heavier weight). This calculation proves are concerns should not be with the bb's; we should be concerned about the AEG's FPS and what are acceptable safe minimum engagement distance.

 

PunkyPink: I have personally played airsoft for over 7yrs and I personally have never seen some one "accidently" shot at 6 Ft with a 500fps gun. In the USA, if a person ever shot some one closer than the minimum 100Ft safety buffer with a 500fps gun they would never be allowed on the field again with a sniper class gun and may be banned from the Field For Life!!!

 

I think the real discussion and questions should be: what are Safe Airsoft FPS? and what engagement distances should be allowed?

 

In response to the breaking glass, unfortunately (by accident) I have personally cracked a PC monitor with a TM M9 shooting an excel .20g @ 280fps at a 5ft distance( not a cheap lesson to learn). I have also broken bottles at 10f with a custom M4 shooting .29g at 550fps. So once again its not the bb’s it’s the FPS of the gun and the distance we engage targets at.

 

 

 

[Punkypink]

Good luck to you expvideo. We'll await any results from you eagerly.

 

Dragon24: This was seriously a freak accident. The sniper was inside a building shooting out of an open window about 5ft away from him at very distant targets. I was also inside the same room. One of the enemy team brilliantly sneaked right up to the building without either of us knowing he was there. He suddenly popped up right at the window like a pop up target. Both me and the sniper were caught completely by surprise and actually jumped and squeezed the trigger out of instinct before we could consciously stop. Thankfully, I missed because I was at a bad angle. Unfortunately the sniper was exactly directly opposite the window and his instinctive shot didn't miss. Whats more he had his rifle shouldered and was shooting at someone well in the distance when the other guy popped right up at the window, thus he didn't even need to consciously make an effort to raise the front of the barrel. I guess you could almost say the guy popped up right into his sights. The sniper was very very sorry and stopped play immediately to escort the other fella back to the safe zone for medical attention.

[Smoke]

PunkyPink: I have personally played airsoft for over 7yrs and I personally have never seen some one "accidently" shot at 6 Ft with a 500fps gun. In the USA, if a person ever shot some one closer than the minimum 100Ft safety buffer with a 500fps gun they would never be allowed on the field again with a sniper class gun and may be banned from the Field For Life!!!

 

[/size]

 

I think the real discussion and questions should be: what are Safe Airsoft FPS? and what engagement distances should be allowed?

 

Hate to burst your bubble mate, but I've been shot at 500fps at less than 5ft square in the face with a .43 (was so close that the backspin shot the bb up my nose). Where I skirmish has no MED.

 

Sure it bled a bit, but meh. No harm done.

 

Let's not open the whole fps/MED discussion up again... it's irrelevant to the topic for a start, and has been done to death so often that it just turns into flaming.

 

How about we accept that sites are able to put what rules in place they see fit? We as consumers have a choice of whether we accept these rules, and frequent the site. Or would rather play somewhere where the rules are more to our liking.

 

From what the manufacturers say, these bbs are designed for Military/law enforcement requirements - and behave exactly as requested by those customers. In light of that information, I don't see them being a 'bad' product - just open to misuse.

[expvideo]

I just wanted to say hi and add my two cents on this post about high speed bbs.

 

An Excel .25g bb shot from a 500fps Systema PTW MAX produces 2.89J of energy at muzzle and over 2.12 foot pounds of force; this is more than enough energy to break bones in the finger, penetrate exposed skin and break airsoft scopes at the 5’-6’ distances described by PunkyPink. If we use the BBBMAX in the same 500fps Systema PTW MAX we will only achieve 2.64J of energy at muzzle and less than 1.95 foot pounds of force(the heavier bb will have a lower muzzle fps due to the heavier weight). This calculation proves are concerns should not be with the bb’s; we should be concerned about the AEG’s FPS and what are acceptable safe minimum engagement distance.

 

PunkyPink: I have personally played airsoft for over 7yrs and I personally have never seen some one “accidently” shot at 6’ with a 500fps gun. In the USA, if a person ever shot some one closer than the minimum 100’ safety buffer with a 500fps gun they would never be allowed on the field again with a sniper class gun and may be banned from the Field For Life!!!

 

 

I think the real discussion and questions should be: what are Safe Airsoft FPS? and what engagement distances should be allowed?

 

 

In response to the breaking glass, unfortunately (by accident) I have personally cracked a PC monitor with a TM M9 shooting an excel .20g @ 280fps at a 5ft distance( not a cheap lesson to learn). I have also broken bottles at 10f with a custom M4 shooting .29g at 550fps. So once again its not the bb’s it’s the FPS of the gun and the distance we engage targets at.

Welcome to the forums! I would like to suggest that you read the rest of this thread, because we have proven several times that the hardness of the bb can also be taken into account, as the amount of energy (ft/lbs, joules, etc.) in the bb is transfered into the target or back into the bb based on the hardness of both. We also are not talking about 500fps guns. We are talking about 1j guns. FPS can definitely cause damage, as can different weight bbs, but the factor that we are concerned about in this thread is hardness of materials. Please read through the thread and you will see what I am talking about.

[expvideo]

From what the manufacturers say, these bbs are designed for Military/law enforcement requirements - and behave exactly as requested by those customers. In light of that information, I don't see them being a 'bad' product - just open to misuse.

Agreed, and according to the manufacturer's warnings, shooting at a person that is not wearing full face and head protection IS misuse.

 

If you have a full facemask field, this could be fine. But if you are shooting at people wearing only goggles and maybe a shemagh, you are misusing the bbs, and you can be held legally liable for any damage to that person's face/teeth. It's called negligence.

[HC Airsoft]

I was pretty sure when I read this thread, it said the person using the PTW who cracked the window was using an M130 cylinder.

 

On the front page, bioval's response says he was using an m170 spring.

 

so my question is simple - which was it?

[Aitch]

I was pretty sure when I read this thread, it said the person using the PTW who cracked the window was using an M130 cylinder.

 

On the front page, bioval's response says he was using an m170 spring.

 

so my question is simple - which was it?

 

 

All of the above and a PTW with a 150 cylinder in it, read it again

[HC Airsoft]

OK got it, they did the retest with an m130 and it still did the damage.

 

pretty impressive on the whole.

 

 

If these bbs were more dangerous to use against people wouldnt there have been some reports from berget about people being injured by them?

[benben]

Shame this thread has been derailed, but my first reaction at seeing those photos in the original post was disbelief BB's could have done that. Ouch!!

[Pablo]

Okay, thread edited to remove yet more argumentative twaddle. Now I've asked nice, and Marlowe's asked nice. This time I ain't asking, k? Be nice folks.