GBB Shootout: Cold Weather

[Utty]

Cold Weather GBB Shootout

 

Now that it's getting a little cold here in Denmark, and as it's been a while since I had to oppertunity to go for a skirmish, I decided to find out which of my GBB pistols would be most suitable as a cold weather sidearm for my next skirmish.

 

The setup:

 

 

Outdoors, overcast, windy, 10C/50F.

 

Gas: Top Gas propane

 

Ammo: G&G .20g BIO

 

Chrono: Chrony Beta

 

 

Subjects (stock condition unless otherwise stated):

 

- Marui P226 (various internal aftermarket parts)

- KSC M9 FMV

- Marui Hi-Capa 4.3

- Western Arms 1911 Magna-Tech

- Western Arms Beretta M1934

- Marui Detonics

 

 

The pistols and the gas were left outside for several hours before the testing commenced.

Magazines were not allowed to warm up in the hand or pocket during these tests.

 

 

Test 1: Chrono Results, FPS (low/high/avg)

 

- Marui P226.......(235/249/243)

- KSC M9 FMV.....(263/282/273)

- Marui 4.3..........(241/252/246)

- WA 1911 M-T....(250/276/259)

- WA M1934........(202/214/207)

- Marui Detonics..(212/220/217)

 

Comments: unsurprising results. The KSC M9 scored highest FPS, and the Marui Detonics scored best consistency. The WA M1934 scored lowest FPS, of course.

 

 

Test 2: Rapid Fire

 

Procedure: each gun's magazine was topped up with gas and BBs, after which the guns were fired in turn at a target, using rapid trigger pulls.

 

- Marui P226: fired 14 out of 24 BBs, after which blowback stroke was too short to load any more BBs. Cooldown and venting of liquid gas present. Weak blowback.

 

- KSC M9 FMV: fired all 24 BBs, slide locked back after last BB fired. Cooldown and venting of liquid gas present. Weak blowback.

 

- Marui 4.3: fired all 31 BBs, but slide did not lock back after last BB fired. Cooldown and venting of liquid gas present. Weak blowback.

 

- Western Arms 1911 Magna-Tech: fired all 21 BBs, slide locked back after last BB fired. No noticable cooldown or liquid gas venting. Strong blowback.

 

- Western Arms M1934: fired 3 out of 20 BBs, after which the remaining gas vented explosively. FAIL

 

- Marui Detonics: fired all 18 BBs, slide locked back after last BB fired. No noticable cooldown or liquid gas venting. Strong blowback.

 

 

Comments:

The WA Magna-Tech and the Marui Detonics get the Grade A stamp of approval after this test. The low temperature had little effect on the performance of these two guns, aside from the FPS output.

The KSC M9 FMV and the Marui 4.3 get a Passed stamp. They work, but the low temperature has obvious effects on their performance.

The last two guns get the FAIL stamp of FAILure. The P226 is an example of how an upgraded GBB is not necessarily the sum of it's upgrade parts. The M1934 simply isn't cut out for rapid firing, let alone cold weather rapid firing.

 

 

Conclusion

 

To my surprise, my sidearms for cold weather skirmishing will be:

 

 

The Western Arms 1911 Magna-Tech and the Marui Detonics. These seem perfectly comfortable in the cold.

 

Final test: can they hit stuff?

 

I did some target shooting at 20 metres range with the Magna-Tech and the Detonics.

 

Magna-Tech: the BBs reach the target quickly, but the aggressive fixed hop and the less than stellar FPS output consistency make the ranged accuracy not so great with .20g BBs, which at 10 degrees C seem just the right BB weight for the fixed hop. Still, easily hits inside a man-sized target.

 

Detonics: the BBs take a while to reach the target compared to the Magna-Tech, but the accuracy is much better. This is one impressive GBB, especially when you consider the barrel length and the size of the gas tank.

[tome]

Thanks for this I've been looking for a good winter GBB and was thinking of getting a marui p226!!

 

Maybe others can add their experiences if you don't mind?

[bjorn]

Best GBB in cold weather IMHO is TM 4.3 without a doubt. Though I have not tried the Detonics in cold yet. Gotta see this!

 

Bjorn

[Wege]

I know why the A+ Pass for the 1911 and Detonics - they were both black with 'wooden' grips

 

Seriously aside... Utty.. you said that the magazines were left out for 'hours' - was that hours between rounds? Or was Rd2 conducted immediately after Rd1? How long was Rd2 left to stabilise the magazines?

I thought that the M1934 has a NLS magazine or is that for the bigger one?

And, I am pleased to see you have your M9 'alive' again after that dismal disappointment earlier

 

Btw.. interesting test

Edited November 10, 2008 by Wege

[Utty]

Thanks for this I've been looking for a good winter GBB and was thinking of getting a marui p226!!

 

Maybe others can add their experiences if you don't mind?

 

Keep in mind my P226 is "upgraded": dyna piston head, SD POM cylinder set, PDI barrel. There is obviously something wrong with this combination, maybe it's the POM floating valve screwing things up.

Back when I bought the P226 years ago, I did some low temperature testing too: I left the stock gun in the freezer for half an hour, then took it out and promptly rapid fired the whole magazine, without any malfunction.

 

Of course, people should feel free to post their cold weather GBB (or NBB for that matter) experiences here.

 

 

@ Wege: Yes, plastic wood ftw.

 

No, I put the guns and gas outside, did other stuff for 2-3 hours, then went out and started testing. Test 1 was without much time allowed for magazine stabilizing after gas charging. Test 2 was conducted right after Test 1, but the magazines were allowed about 5 minutes rest each after charging with gas.

Yes, the M1934 should have that magazine system too, but a frozen, stuck valve will release all the gas in one go all the same. I think it used to be more stable, maybe something's worn out in the magazine valve.

The KSC M9 is alive, but I still hate it.

 

Best GBB in cold weather IMHO is TM 4.3 without a doubt.

Which was exactly what I was expecting from my 4.3 too, I was surprised that this was not the case. Maybe with a different piston head?

Edited November 10, 2008 by Utty

[Romulus]

I think that the one thing to remember with the 4.3 is that it is almost the same system as the Detonics but that the 4.3 is trying to fire off 31 rounds where the Detonics only has to get through 18 (that's almost twice the number of shots to be cooling the gun down).

 

I would say that the above helps to account for the greater spread in the 4.3's FPS readings and why it didn't finish off as well as the Detonics.

 

I would be curious to know what results you got if you short loaded the 4.3 with 18 rounds and then compared it to Detonics.

____________

 

Fun test though. I'm from Alaska so I am used to using GBB's in temps around 35F-50F but I normally pre-warm things and such so my experiences are not really relevant here.

Edited November 10, 2008 by Romulus

[renegadecow]

I was thinking a gun with a larger magazine (4.3 dual stack) would hold better against cold compared to ones with smaller mags (detonics single stack) since objects of greater mass would have a higher capacity in containing energy. I have to stress another point though that in the Detonics manual, Marui brags about some new system put into their mags for better efficiency (not found in government 1911 but implemented in the MEU). If this is true, the MEU should hold better than everything else.

 

On the topic of cold mags, anyone try a Zippo pocket warmer to heat mags?

[Frakk2k]

My bell 1911 fires off about 2/3s of the magazine before the gas fizzles. (In freezing Norway :/ )

[(V)atrix]

The pistols and the gas were left outside for several hours before the testing commenced.

Magazines were not allowed to warm up in the hand or pocket during these tests.

 

 

Test 1: Chrono Results, FPS (low/high/avg)

 

- Marui P226.......(235/249/243)

- KSC M9 FMV.....(263/282/273)

- Marui 4.3..........(241/252/246)

- WA 1911 M-T....(250/276/259)

- WA M1934........(202/214/207)

- Marui Detonics..(212/220/217)

 

Just a couple small observations from a statistical stand-point...

 

1) you should list how many shots these test numbers are based on.

 

2) since I don't know how many shots the averages were based on, I need to reiterate... When comparing guns with different mag capacities, it would be good to conduct the test with a set number of rounds per gun (eg. 10 shots per pistol) - to better determine the actual variations in efficiency.

 

Eg. Gun X (mag = 10 rounds) vs. Gun Y (mag = 30 rounds)

 

Comparing full mags (10-rounds vs. 30-rounds)...

Gun X - 10 FPS variation; Gun Y - 20 FPS

But when comparing only 10 rounds...

Gun X - 10 FPS variation; Gun Y - 5 FPS variation

 

3) when working with small samples - as most chrono tests involve - it would be good to include both mean, mode and median data.

 

Eg. 10 shot sample:

155

230

230

230

230

230

230

230

230

280

 

The mean ("average" as commonly used) is 204.5 FPS... But that's because of two very anomolous readings (155 and 280). The median and mode are both 230, indicating that 230 FPS would be a much more realistic expectation of how the gun will perform.

 

These aren't criticisms... Merely a few points intended to illustrate how you can improve the (very useful) data you've been kind enough to collect and share.

Edited November 11, 2008 by (V)atrix

[ancorp]

Thanks for the outstanding article, Utty!

 

Any chance of doing one at say... 0 or even -5 C?

[Wege]

I think at that rate that you will seriously start the risk of destroying your precious..

He may as well stick it in the fridge and fire it in a freezer, or you could just walk outside in about what.. 2 months?

 

As stupid and annoying as it may sound (to utty) I think a fair test, too, may be to use the gas that each was designed to use : HFC134a rather than the TOP he has there.

 

On 134a I am sure that the 4.3 magazine (at 20-23deg C) is capable of 80-100shots and I KNOW that the Marui M1911A1 magazine is capable of far more than 'just' one magazine (I think I counted it out at 2mags?)

Aw ######.. I could just be dribbling on, while watching morning cartoons and coffeeing though.

 

I spose they don't call Top gas a 'winter' gas for nothing?

 

[Utty]

I think that the one thing to remember with the 4.3 is that it is almost the same system as the Detonics but that the 4.3 is trying to fire off 31 rounds where the Detonics only has to get through 18 (that's almost twice the number of shots to be cooling the gun down).

Sorry, forgot to mention that in the FPS test:

10 shots were fired from each gun.

 

I was thinking a gun with a larger magazine (4.3 dual stack) would hold better against cold compared to ones with smaller mags (detonics single stack) since objects of greater mass would have a higher capacity in containing energy. I have to stress another point though that in the Detonics manual, Marui brags about some new system put into their mags for better efficiency (not found in government 1911 but implemented in the MEU). If this is true, the MEU should hold better than everything else.

The 4.3 was clearly suffering from the cold, venting liquid gas and having really weak blowback, while the Detonics seemed magically unaffected. This surprised me a lot.

So the MEU should be like the Detonics in that regard? Oh boy, I know what my next pistol will be.

 

These aren't criticisms... Merely a few points intended to illustrate how you can improve the (very useful) data you've been kind enough to collect and share.

Yeah I know, I forgot to mention all guns fired 10 shots in the FPS test. I was tired, or something.

 

 

Thanks for the outstanding article, Utty!

 

Any chance of doing one at say... 0 or even -5 C?

My pleasure. Oh I will, when it gets colder.

 

As stupid and annoying as it may sound (to utty) I think a fair test, too, may be to use the gas that each was designed to use : HFC134a rather than the TOP he has there.

Good idea, but the thought of pumping 134a in my poor guns makes me sick to my stomach.

[Utty]

UPDATE

 

I decided to see if something could be done to improve the cold weather performances of the 4.3 and the P226.

 

The setup:

 

 

Outdoors, overcast, very windy, 8C/46F

 

Gas: Top Gas propane

 

Ammo: G&G .20g BIO

 

Chrono: Chrony Beta

 

 

Subjects (stock condition unless otherwise stated):

 

- Marui P226 (various internal aftermarket parts, now with thicker O-ring on the piston head)

- Marui Hi-Capa 4.3 (now with PDI winter piston head)

- Western Arms 1911 Magna-Tech

- Marui Detonics

 

 

The pistols and the gas were left outside for several hours before the testing commenced.

Magazines were not allowed to warm up in the hand or pocket during these tests.

 

 

Test 1: Chrono Results, FPS, 10 shots fired from each gun (low/high/avg)

 

- Marui P226.......(209/238/221)

- Marui 4.3..........(238/248/242)

- WA 1911 M-T....(234/258/247)

- Marui Detonics..(203/214/208)

 

Comments: Something good has happened to the 4.3's performance, its FPS average is only 4 lower than the 10 degree C test, while the other guns included in this test have taken a bigger FPS hit. The P226 is especially pathetic, despite having a better sealing O-ring this time. The WA Magna-Tech still has pretty poor FPS consistency, while the 4.3 now seems more consistent than the Detonics.

 

 

Test 2: Rapid Fire

 

Procedure: each gun's magazine was topped up with gas and BBs, after which the guns were fired in turn at a target, using rapid trigger pulls.

 

- Marui P226: fired 9 out of 24 BBs, with weak blowback, then dumped the remaining gas. TSK TSK

 

- Marui 4.3: fired all 31 BBs, but slide did not lock back after last BB fired. Cooldown and venting of liquid gas present. Weak-ish blowback. Same as the 10C test.

 

- Western Arms 1911 Magna-Tech: fired all 21 BBs, but slide did not lock back after last BB fired. Some cooldown and slight liquid gas venting. Strong blowback that gradually weakened.

 

- Marui Detonics: fired all 18 BBs, but slide did not lock back after last BB fired. Some cooldown and slight liquid gas venting. Strong blowback that gradually weakened.

 

Comments:

All the guns are suffering from the cold now. The P226 is basically useless at this temperature. The rest are pretty much equal at this point, thanks to the PDI winter piston head in the 4.3.

 

 

Conclusion

 

The Marui Hi-Capa 4.3 with PDI winter piston head has joined the ranks of usable cold weather GBBs, though the WA Magna-Tech and the Marui Detonics still have much more confident blowback.

[taffywest]

I use my TM MK23 socom all year and find it reliable even in the winter, in summer it rocks chrono in summer at 327 fps on the nose everytime until mag is empty

[[BS]_MARS]

THATS REALLY COOL!

[howitzer]

Interesting read thanks.

[fal]

KSC M9 is not exactly a good model to represent KSC. Remember KSC has system7 varients and their hardkick varients/old system. The old system and the hardkick tends to work worse in cold weather compare to system7/glock system. If you used Glock or their P226 it would represent current/upcoming KSC models better.

 

Thanks for doing the test anyway. I'm sure it helps many curious minds.

Edited November 29, 2008 by fal

[Harmless]

My TM p226 did so poorly in the cold at Lewisham, that it would not even cycle enough to pick up the next bb. My USPc was much better and reliable. Both on green, will probably switch to the USP for my main sidearm.

[Namaan]

my Marui 1911 does very well in low temps on green gas.. my last game was earlier in november, temp was around 12 degrees C, and it was still kicking hard, and putting rounds out to a good distance...

 

no official test figures, but there was very liitle cool-down, and no venting....not too shabby.

[Marginal]

TM G17 with Guarder complete upgrade kit from which I didn't use the stronger recoil and hammer spring. Works great also with an about 6° temperature.

[Lone_Bullet]

As I actually try to use a TM P226, I'd like to see what upgrades could fix the cold weather suckage, or at least just improve it.

Other than that... I don't have any other gun and no crono yet: Could anyone try more guns / upgrades?

I am, as others I thing, also very interested in the TM MEU in cold weather condition.

 

Anyone? ^^

 

 

( Hope they make this a sticky when it grows larger )

[Lone_Bullet]

As I actually try to use a TM P226, I'd like to see what upgrades could fix the cold weather suckage, or at least just improve it.

Other than that... I don't have any other gun and no crono yet: Could anyone try more guns / upgrades?

I am, as others I thing, also very interested in the TM MEU in cold weather condition.

 

Anyone? ^^

 

 

( Hope they make this a sticky when it grows larger )

[Utty]

I bought a Marui MEU some time ago.

 

To my disappointment, I find the blowback (regardless of ambient temperature) of the MEU to be rather sluggish, and it also has a tendency to blast a bit of liquid gas on the first couple of shots on a full magazine. Hrmm! I examined the blowback engine parts, nothing seems to be defective. I also tried swapping out the piston head, didn't help.

 

So I ended up just sticking the Detonics upper on the MEU lower.

 

 

Works great in cool temps that way, but I must say I had expected more from the blowback engine of the MEU.

[snowman]

Is it any different to the Detonics?

 

I think the Detonics piston is D shaped, isn't it? But I assumed that was just to save space...

 

Cheers.

 

[Wege]

So I ended up just sticking the Detonics upper on the MEU lower.

 

http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk195/utrak/detonics3.jpg

 

 

ok.. that looks stunted.. like far too many cigarettes as a kid..

 

weird.. but stunted..