Initial Impressions of the TM SOPMOD M4 AEG

[sacairsoftsn00py]

Probably the same as stock ... Mechanical

 

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[Richard Y]

 

Prometheus...

 

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Sexy stuff, I've not had the issue with any sets but it could be wear or even an off spec set. At the end of the day the shs is only meant to be a budget alternative.

 

You could put a blob of resin glue on the tip of the cut off. The part that lifts the trigger blade , make up the last mm or so missing. It's easierly removed and you can sand it back if you go to far.

[sacairsoftsn00py]

Another thing is that the triggers are different on the 416...contact point may be a hair taller than the stock sopmod/m4 trigger?

 

Again my issue arises when I set up the condition for burst/full auto fire...that is...by very very very very slowly pulling the trigger. Even then, the issue rarely pops up. Normal firing...committing to the trigger pull quickly results in perfect semi auto functioning.

 

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[Rob15]

Thats all normal, the issue is your piston head, its tm and non vented which means your o ring will not widen when the piston is released.  Its soley reliant on the o ring being wide enough in the first place.

Have you actually tested a stock TM piston head against the same piston head with vent holes added to it to see if there is any difference in the fps? The theory that the vents push the o-ring out is an old an established one, but one I also think is ######.

 

Doing the 'compression test' any piston head with a good o-ring should seal immediately without any real speed or force applied, I know for sure my own airbrake piston heads do and all other brands I've tried over the years, there has never been any real room for forward air pressure to actually improve the seal.

 

From what I recall of stock TM piston heads the reason they seal well is the o-ring groove is moulded so that it's activly pushing the o-ring against the cylinder, unlike on aftermarket vented ones where the o-ring has space on the inside and room to shift forward and backwards, the vents are actually there to allow air to flow back into the cylinder more efficiently.

[SixtyNiner]

Again my issue arises when I set up the condition for burst/full auto fire...that is...by very very very very slowly pulling the trigger.

After reading the post about your problem on the previous page I tested my gun and the same thing happens. I have to very deliberately pull the trigger as slowly as I can - it would be a extremely rare occurrence under normal skirmish use - and there is a sweet (sour?) spot where I can get a short two or three round burst when the gun selector is set to semi.

 

My gear set is Prometheus, standard TM trigger and cut-off lever with a Gate PicoAB mosfet, 11.1v lipo.

 

I'm not too worried about it, I never noticed it before. And I'm guessing a Spectre mosfet will solve the problem completely.

[sacairsoftsn00py]

What kind of motor are you running? Fps of your gun? Tried spreading the contacts apart so the switch moves farther in (more contact area for the cut off lever to trip)?

 

 

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[Richard Y]

Have you actually tested a stock TM piston head against the same piston head with vent holes added to it to see if there is any difference in the fps? The theory that the vents push the o-ring out is an old an established one, but one I also think is ######.

 

Doing the 'compression test' any piston head with a good o-ring should seal immediately without any real speed or force applied, I know for sure my own airbrake piston heads do and all other brands I've tried over the years, there has never been any real room for forward air pressure to actually improve the seal.

 

From what I recall of stock TM piston heads the reason they seal well is the o-ring groove is moulded so that it's activly pushing the o-ring against the cylinder, unlike on aftermarket vented ones where the o-ring has space on the inside and room to shift forward and backwards, the vents are actually there to allow air to flow back into the cylinder more efficiently.

I put another post further down explaining vented piston heads and how they work, yes I have tried it which is why I suggested it, only about 50 times haha. I did say to try expanding the piston ring first, it's reliant soley on the o ring filling the gap, if the o ring no longer does that it doesn't seal, and rubber contracts over time. The issue with non vented is longevity and consistency, how long till a tiny gap appears or more gap then more, ever decreasing fps. The venting works, the air goes in the holes and expands it, enough to form a "more consistent" seal. I've seen more consistency doing this mod in the long term. Then again I have seen after market vented piston heads with a poor air seal if that o ring has shrunk it could have dart ford tunnel drilled into the front of it and still not form a decent seal, which is why the expanding o ring trick and the compression test are a gun techs first tools out the bag when fault finding low fps, I'm simply saying there's one more..

 

If you don't think there's enough force to at least slightly expand the o ring enough to at least form a marginally better seal , cut a hole in the front of a gearbox pop your finger in, pull the trigger and prove me wrong.

 

The proofs there if you do enough guns, I can slap a promy piston head straight in , quick compression test and instantly see an fps gain, and I know it's going to be more consistent for longer.

 

But we are back on the subject of marginal gains again but they all add up.

[SixtyNiner]

Motor is an Echigoya Torque Up

http://eagle6.co.uk/shop/upgrade-part-s/upgrades-aeg/motors-parts/echigoya-kobayashi-torque-up-motor-long-type.html

 

FPS is around 300. A little low for the M100 spring I'm using, possibly because of the piston head, as discussed a page or two ago.

 

I haven't looked into the causes or a fix. The only reason I discovered the burst shot was because you posted your observations and I thought, 'I wonder if mine does the same?' I hadn't spotted it before with normal use.

As the gun works okay, and the Spectre will hopefully be available imminently, I'm going to leave the gun as it is for now and fit a Prommy piston head and Spectre at the same time.

[Richard Y]

Another thing is that the triggers are different on the 416...contact point may be a hair taller than the stock sopmod/m4 trigger?

 

Again my issue arises when I set up the condition for burst/full auto fire...that is...by very very very very slowly pulling the trigger. Even then, the issue rarely pops up. Normal firing...committing to the trigger pull quickly results in perfect semi auto functioning.

 

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I think your just pulling it to slowly as sixtyniner says , a bit like when players spam the trigger and release to soon potentially causing a lock up, trigger disciplines a big part since it needs that full trigger pull to properly disconnect the blade. If the blade never gets there it's gunna miss the first few bounces of the cut off lever.

 

Ive sat the hk416 and m4 triggers side by side they are identical, I thought at the very least cosmetically they would be different, as are all the other gearbox parts apart from the selector plate which has an extra bit on to fill the void of the wider receiver.

 

I ve still got a few m4 and hk416 triggers I think I will double check in the morning.

[Rob15]

I put another post further down explaining vented piston heads and how they work, yes I have tried it which is why I suggested it, only about 50 times haha.

 

If you don't think there's enough force to at least slightly expand the o ring enough to at least form a marginally better seal , cut a hole in the front of a gearbox pop your finger in, pull the trigger and prove me wrong.

Yes I know the theory behind them, but I'm not convinced that in practice it works and I've never seen any actual evidence to say it does, in the 50 times you've done it have you not changed anything else in the gearbox at all other than adding the venting? If you have then I'd not consider it proper evidence that venting works, that's the problem, anyone who fits vented piston heads has usually changed something else at the same time, even if it's just adding bearings so you can't attribute any fps gain directly to the vents.

 

I know there is a lot of force pushing against the o-ring, but if it already seals perfectly with nothing more than a tiny bit of force being applied by hand I doubt any additional force is going to improve the fps, the one thing it will do is improve the seal between the o-ring and the piston head itself, I suppose if the o-ring has less than optimal dimensions then it might help the airseal to a point, but if the o-ring doesn't seal perfectly when doing the compression test I just bin it anyway, I'm not into trying to trying to expand worn o-rings or soak them in oil, I always think that's just fitting an o-ring on borrowed time and not worth it.

 

This is one of these theories I'd like to test for myself properly, and since I'm probably going to be doing production runs of new piston heads soon and doing them entirely 'in house' this time I may keep a few unvented so I can do a proper comparison of identical setups with the only difference being vents.

[sacairsoftsn00py]

I've always been a fan of non ported piston heads. I actually prefer it over the ported ones.

 

The double torque prommy gears significantly dropped my rof..

 

 

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[Aod]

Yes I know the theory behind them, but I'm not convinced that in practice it works and I've never seen any actual evidence to say it does, in the 50 times you've done it have you not changed anything else in the gearbox at all other than adding the venting? If you have then I'd not consider it proper evidence that venting works, that's the problem, anyone who fits vented piston heads has usually changed something else at the same time, even if it's just adding bearings so you can't attribute any fps gain directly to the vents.

 

I know there is a lot of force pushing against the o-ring, but if it already seals perfectly with nothing more than a tiny bit of force being applied by hand I doubt any additional force is going to improve the fps, the one thing it will do is improve the seal between the o-ring and the piston head itself, I suppose if the o-ring has less than optimal dimensions then it might help the airseal to a point, but if the o-ring doesn't seal perfectly when doing the compression test I just bin it anyway, I'm not into trying to trying to expand worn o-rings or soak them in oil, I always think that's just fitting an o-ring on borrowed time and not worth it.

 

This is one of these theories I'd like to test for myself properly, and since I'm probably going to be doing production runs of new piston heads soon and doing them entirely 'in house' this time I may keep a few unvented so I can do a proper comparison of identical setups with the only difference being vents.

I've done a little bit of testing in this regard with upgraded Marui guns for customers who elected to keep the stock pistonheads, I found a fairly consistent 10FPS increase every time I vented the pistonhead, keeping all other components the same and just modifying the stock Marui pistonhead. In one case, a rather antiquated Marui G36 which had seen a couple hundred thousand rounds, venting the pistonhead saw the FPS jump by 40, which I ascribe to the worn o-ring.

 

Marui pistonheads are just as loose behind the o-ring as most others, if not more than others. On a marui pistonhead you can slide the o-ring so deep into the channel that there's a gap on the other side, making it nice and easy to remove the o-ring

 

As an aside, I emailed LPE about potentially modding a barrel for me and you guys never got back to me

[Richard Y]

I've always been a fan of non ported piston heads. I actually prefer it over the ported ones.

 

The double torque prommy gears significantly dropped my rof..

 

 

 

 

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Ut oh, what's it clocking in at ? How did the gears sound when you tested them manually without cylinder set nice and smooth ?

 

What about other things like trigger response does it feel snappier with the higher torque, I always felt like single shots where faster in response after fitting the gears.

Edited March 19, 2014 by Richard Y

[Richard Y]

Yes I know the theory behind them, but I'm not convinced that in practice it works and I've never seen any actual evidence to say it does, in the 50 times you've done it have you not changed anything else in the gearbox at all other than adding the venting? If you have then I'd not consider it proper evidence that venting works, that's the problem, anyone who fits vented piston heads has usually changed something else at the same time, even if it's just adding bearings so you can't attribute any fps gain directly to the vents.

 

I know there is a lot of force pushing against the o-ring, but if it already seals perfectly with nothing more than a tiny bit of force being applied by hand I doubt any additional force is going to improve the fps, the one thing it will do is improve the seal between the o-ring and the piston head itself, I suppose if the o-ring has less than optimal dimensions then it might help the airseal to a point, but if the o-ring doesn't seal perfectly when doing the compression test I just bin it anyway, I'm not into trying to trying to expand worn o-rings or soak them in oil, I always think that's just fitting an o-ring on borrowed time and not worth it.

 

This is one of these theories I'd like to test for myself properly, and since I'm probably going to be doing production runs of new piston heads soon and doing them entirely 'in house' this time I may keep a few unvented so I can do a proper comparison of identical setups with the only difference being vents.

Yeah at some point I've done just single parts for testing and comparison it's shockingly time destroying but I don't remember specific rps results just fps bumps, back in the day fps was always the bench market for a part improving a gun now we look for that rof efficiency too. It's my Infos the same as all gun techs, you just draw conclusions over time based on what ever results you see when working on guns. There's zero science or proof of anything Airsoft all we can do is change something and test and even then that could be skewed by that particular gun.

 

Like if I fit an aftermarket piston head on a poor performing tm it's going to be a large increase. So skewed results. So it seems nigh on impossible to really catalog single improvements, though if I was making piston heads I defiantly test with just that one part on a stock tm. That's what I did when making my springs just went out and brought a stock tm recoil, changed the spring and marked the result. I bet though if I did the same again on another brand new tm recoil I'd get a different result haha

 

You are right though typically if I head in I will change multiple parts, time is money and all that. The theory's sound, I just expect marginal gains from all parts, I don't imagine a Teflon coated cylinder could massively increase rps but the theory's sound, maybe individually you don't get a rps increase but maybe cumulatively you do. All we can do is look at what a products offering and given the choice on my own personal gun I would fit all upgrade parts.

[sacairsoftsn00py]

Ut oh, what's it clocking in at ? How did the gears sound when you tested them manually without cylinder set nice and smooth ?

 

What about other things like trigger response does it feel snappier with the higher torque, I always felt like single shots where faster in response after fitting the gears.

Significant drop was with the guarder infinite motor. At 380-385 fps, my 416 was shooting about 12.3 rps using the shs gear set and a 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo. After the prommy double torque gears were installed, rof dropped to a measly 10.2 rps...a loss of about 2 rps. Trigger response between the two set ups showed no real difference IMO...this may be subjective however.

 

Rof with the tm eg3000 high cycle motor was about 14.2 with the same 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo. Gun was shooting 338-343 fps. After the double torque prommy gears were installed, rof dropped to 13.3....a drop of about 1 rps. Trigger response wise....I actually don't remember as I didn't have the shs, 340, eg3000 setup for long.

 

It was more for comparison with the guarder infinite motor, shs, 340 which at that time had a very snappy response. Rof however was not much better than the 380, guarder motor , shs combination..so I ran the 380 setup with the guarder motor...

 

Then I got better trigger response on semi, and same rof as stock, and higher velocity.

 

So...

 

With a fully charged 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo in a 416 DEVGRU

 

Shs gears, 380+, guarder infinite motor, 12.3 rps

Shs gears, 340+, eg3000 motor, 14.2 rps

 

Prommy dt gears, 380+, guarder infinite motor, 10.2 rps

Prommy dt gears, 340+, eg3000 motor, 13.3 rps

Prommy dt gears, 340+, guarder infinite motor, 11.7

 

 

Not really thorough as I didn't intend to compare the set ups by taking numerical figures while figuring out the odd burst firing on semi issue (solved).

 

One thing I can say is that the guarder infinite motor does a pretty good job improving the trigger response without sucking up your battery.

 

My final setup may be the dt gears, infinite motor, 340 fps....11.7 rps is better than 10.2...can't really give up the trigger response in favor of a 40+ fps increase. I can give up a lil bit of rof in favor of a more crisp semi auto trigger response. Who knows though...

 

My m4 socom/mk18 is pretty dialed in. 395 fps at 17rps with a 7.4v 1300mah 25c lipo using a g&p m170 motor....motor doesn't suck up the battery. Trigger response is excellent. You can spam the trigger pretty much however fast you want without lock ups.

 

I am curious to see if the mk18s performance is due to the motor. If it is..then I may need to buy another g&p m170 motor....stick the 380+ spring back, get that near instantaneous trigger response and have another hard hitting gun.

 

I'll see...

Edited March 19, 2014 by sacairsoftsn00py

[arne71]

Please report back!

[Hopewell]

I would have thought that the performance is most definitely due to the G&P motor sacairsoftsn00py..  Being an after market, higher end motor!

 

Have you considered the SHS Ultra High Torque motor, or the Lonex A2?  Both seem to be raved about consistently, although I have only used the SHS UHT myself.

[mrezzy]

I can't seem to find any literature on it, but how does the bolt stop work with the BTC? The info I have found seems to be a direct copy of their V2 fet

 

The bolt stop is still mechanical, however the bolt stop arm hit s digital switch on the Spectre. In stock TM, the bolt stop arm lets go of the trigger, but now everthing is digital switch.

 

can't wait to get it fixed!!!

 

AOE, Sorbo pad, BTC Spectre, r-hop tuned to .28g, this thing should shoot like a beast once it's done.

[sacairsoftsn00py]

I would have thought that the performance is most definitely due to the G&P motor sacairsoftsn00py.. Being an after market, higher end motor!

 

Have you considered the SHS Ultra High Torque motor, or the Lonex A2? Both seem to be raved about consistently, although I have only used the SHS UHT myself.

I have thought about those motors. I'm not sure about how well the pinion gear on the shs uht will mesh with the prommy gear sets bevel gear...can't exactly replace it as those use the d hole pinion gear.....yes d-hole. Lol

 

I picked the tienly motor over the lonex as I heard they perform better. The lonex motor is pretty good IMO...the only down side is that it seems to suck up battery quickly...if I had a bigger battery in my 416, I will go with the higher speed one. I have the 30000 motor...one that supposedly pulls up to an m190 spring. Between the guarder motor and the tienly, I can't tell the difference in how quick the trigger response is....which is why I switched over to the guarder infinite motor....similar trigger response and more efficient. Can't remember how well full auto was. I think with the shs gears, they both pulled the same rof. Again, this was all with the 7.4v 1200mah 25c turnigy nanotech that I fit in the marui sopmod battery. Now...with a bigger battery, I'm sure performance may show how much better one performs over the other.

 

I am curious about the g&p m170 motor. I suppose I could swap one off of my mk18 into the 416 and see...I really don't want to take it apart again though but odds are, I may have to so I can find out for sure...then I can either buy another one...or just swap motors...period. I can always use a bigger battery on the mk18 as it is front wired...ah. More money down the drain.. $65 for the tienly motor, $71 for the eg3000 hc motor, and $48 for the guarder motor. A g&p m170 motor will run another $70+. That's $250 in motors which is half the cost of another tm next gen socom...not cool. Lol

______

 

Annoying. Forgot my g&p motor has a different cut pinion gear as im using an moe grip.

 

Used an adaptor so I can use my sopmod battery into the mk18 with the m170 motor. Gun shot 13.6 rps @350 fps witg .25g bbs.

 

Slapped the same battery in the 416 with the dt gear ratio....11.7 rps @ 311 fps with .25g bbs.

 

Trigger response was slightly better on the 416....

 

looks like the g&p m170 motor has better torque and speed than the guarder infinite motor now.

 

For the extra 40+ fps, I gained +2 rps but lost out on the trigger response some.

 

Im sure that with the lighter spring, ill get an improved trigger response AND rof. Not to mention, my 416 is using the prommy silver wiring....so the g&p motor should perform even better.

 

Meh. Looks like ill have to pick another one up.....

 

 

Eventually.

 

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Edited March 19, 2014 by sacairsoftsn00py

[Richard Y]

Significant drop was with the guarder infinite motor. At 380-385 fps, my 416 was shooting about 12.3 rps using the shs gear set and a 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo. After the prommy double torque gears were installed, rof dropped to a measly 10.2 rps...a loss of about 2 rps. Trigger response between the two set ups showed no real difference IMO...this may be subjective however.

 

Rof with the tm eg3000 high cycle motor was about 14.2 with the same 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo. Gun was shooting 338-343 fps. After the double torque prommy gears were installed, rof dropped to 13.3....a drop of about 1 rps. Trigger response wise....I actually don't remember as I didn't have the shs, 340, eg3000 setup for long.

 

It was more for comparison with the guarder infinite motor, shs, 340 which at that time had a very snappy response. Rof however was not much better than the 380, guarder motor , shs combination..so I ran the 380 setup with the guarder motor...

 

Then I got better trigger response on semi, and same rof as stock, and higher velocity.

 

So...

 

With a fully charged 7.4v 1200mah 25c lipo in a 416 DEVGRU

 

Shs gears, 380+, guarder infinite motor, 12.3 rps

Shs gears, 340+, eg3000 motor, 14.2 rps

 

Prommy dt gears, 380+, guarder infinite motor, 10.2 rps

Prommy dt gears, 340+, eg3000 motor, 13.3 rps

Prommy dt gears, 340+, guarder infinite motor, 11.7

 

 

Not really thorough as I didn't intend to compare the set ups by taking numerical figures while figuring out the odd burst firing on semi issue (solved).

 

One thing I can say is that the guarder infinite motor does a pretty good job improving the trigger response without sucking up your battery.

 

My final setup may be the dt gears, infinite motor, 340 fps....11.7 rps is better than 10.2...can't really give up the trigger response in favor of a 40+ fps increase. I can give up a lil bit of rof in favor of a more crisp semi auto trigger response. Who knows though...

 

My m4 socom/mk18 is pretty dialed in. 395 fps at 17rps with a 7.4v 1300mah 25c lipo using a g&p m170 motor....motor doesn't suck up the battery. Trigger response is excellent. You can spam the trigger pretty much however fast you want without lock ups.

 

I am curious to see if the mk18s performance is due to the motor. If it is..then I may need to buy another g&p m170 motor....stick the 380+ spring back, get that near instantaneous trigger response and have another hard hitting gun.

 

I'll see...

Yeah defo try the gandp motor... That's a vast difference that said you will be losing x y z in the hk 416 quick change system, maybe the gold terminal kit could give you a better surface area contact on the stock tube terminals.

 

Take the hk stock off and repeat one of the tests but with the wires directly pushed into a tamiya connector or solder on a quick deans for testing.

 

And see the rof diff without the stock

 

The problem with recoils is there's a zone where there trigger response and rof is perfect between 12 - 18

 

If you drift into the 10 rps territory it's like firing in slow motion and will wind you right up, it's amazing the effect of just being 2 slower can have on your experience. I've had them in the 20s and again a wrong sensation

[sacairsoftsn00py]

I personally, I think 15 rps is the sweet spot for full auto fire. 20rps is overkill with the recoil shock series.

 

I have the devgru...so im using the sopmod crane. Will those prommy gold bars really help that much? I guess that'll be on my want to buy list...along with the g&p motor.

 

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[Aod]

I personally, I think 15 rps is the sweet spot for full auto fire. 20rps is overkill with the recoil shock series.

 

I have the devgru...so im using the sopmod crane. Will those prommy gold bars really help that much? I guess that'll be on my want to buy list...along with the g&p motor.

 

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I have mixed feelings about those "gold" bars. While they are gold-plated which lowers contact resistance, they are actually made of Aluminium which is noticeably less electrically conductive than the copper bars that the stock ones are made of. Best option would be to use the gold contacts for the stock tube and try and have the stock bars gold-plated

Edited March 19, 2014 by Aod

[Richard Y]

Yeah it's the combo both the contacts and the bars being plated which work well.

 

You have to watch it though as sometimes the wider contacts can sit just a little to wide so they aren't fully pushing down if you can picture it .. Some feeling needed as always

 

Test your rps with out the stock and you will know how much rps your losing through it. It might be nothing .. There's just a massive gap between your socom and hk

[sacairsoftsn00py]

Socom has shs gears, 390+, m170 motor.

 

Hk has dt gears, guarder infinity, 340+.

 

Just an fyi. Aside from the motor and the gold plated bars, I'm actually considering hard wiring it and switching the tm sopmod crane... To a vfc Crane stock which should allow me to use a higher capacity/voltage battery. I just really like the convenience these solid battery offers.

 

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[blam360]

Just an fyi. Aside from the motor and the gold plated bars, I'm actually considering hard wiring it and switching the tm sopmod crane... To a vfc Crane stock which should allow me to use a higher capacity/voltage battery. I just really like the convenience these solid battery offers.

 

 

you mean soldering wires onto the end of the gold plated bars?