Richard Y Posted April 25, 2010 Report Share Posted April 25, 2010 they seem to be a little withholding lately on there new releases after the recent rash of new ones Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Chef Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 well, I've had a reply from Extreme Fire about their mosfet installation. When ever the trigger signal is lost the gun will stop firing instantly no matter where in the burst it is. So if the three round burst is at two shots, it will stop right there if the trigger signal is lost due to the magazine switch. That will not affect the timing if you try it again. Once the timing is set it will remember where it is even if the trigger goes off early. So it should all work fine. So all looking good so far. should be no problems with the cut-off. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Number5 Posted April 26, 2010 Report Share Posted April 26, 2010 well, I've had a reply from Extreme Fire about their mosfet installation. So all looking good so far. should be no problems with the cut-off. Good news! Now all you have to hope for is that it fits in there! /having opened the gear box, I'm fairly certain that it will fit in, and the wires should come through the gap in the barrel/delta ring assembly, although it will be that extra bit more difficult it should go through. let us know how it goes, pics would be nice too!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 27, 2010 Report Share Posted April 27, 2010 Ok, the socom arrived today and im impressed in a good and bad way, I cant fit my 9.6v nunchuck battery on the handguard so i have to use an old 8.4v which to my surprise has a nice ROF and trigger response (didnt expect that), other thing is that the delta ring is quite weak, much much weaker than my old Dboys one... weird, not to mention the two pieces gas tube... now that was a surprise but what left me speechless was that the carryhandle is made of plastic... =S I thought it was full metal... Good thing is that my ACM CTR stock fits perfectly, and when I say perfectly its positively and utterly with 0 wobble, better than the TM stock Very happy with the purchase and eager to test it on the field Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tinydata Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Hey, I don't remember reading about it, but is the delta ring real steel RIS compatible? Or is it still Marui's proprietary system? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 It's a shame there isn't more aftermarket support for this gun. I'd be interested in it if it were fully embraced by aftermarket manufacturers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
elanaiba Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Ok, the socom arrived today and im impressed in a good and bad way, I cant fit my 9.6v nunchuck battery on the handguard so i have to use an old 8.4v which to my surprise has a nice ROF and trigger response (didnt expect that), other thing is that the delta ring is quite weak, much much weaker than my old Dboys one... weird, not to mention the two pieces gas tube... now that was a surprise but what left me speechless was that the carryhandle is made of plastic... =S I thought it was full metal... Good thing is that my ACM CTR stock fits perfectly, and when I say perfectly its positively and utterly with 0 wobble, better than the TM stock Very happy with the purchase and eager to test it on the field Carry handle made of plastic ? Not on MY Socom! My Magpul PTS CTR fits TOO well, its hard to move unless you really use force on it. Negative wobble As for the battery in the handguard, there's some ribs inside made to fit the gas tube, you may want to cut those? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 It's a shame there isn't more aftermarket support for this gun. I'd be interested in it if it were fully embraced by aftermarket manufacturers. it took 18 years for the parts companys to get into the current state they are in with regards choice of parts. 99% of the parts companys are based out of china. Not to say they are bad most people source to tiawan nowadays becuase its cheap cheap cheap to produce on mass. But Most companys work off someone elses designs. Prometheus (laylax who are the only "major" player to get onboard and do parts) are based in japan. Produce to a much higher standard and no daubt brought or where given the specfications from TM direct. Its this investment in the designs which most companys wont do. and it takes a lot of time to do copys and testing of each part. Especially since each cast of the molds cost 5000 quid. believe me ive had qoutes. How ever, once the designs get out into china, im prity sure there will be an influx. And with every new release theres more and more guns sold and at the end of the day, these companys have a lot of money, at somepoint they will take notice. Until then i continue to "try" to fill the void Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 I think that if the ARmy clone is released (one of these days...) theres a possibility that the SOPMOD/Socom creates the same effect in aftermarket spares as the AGM GBBR created when it was released or thats my hope. Elanaiba: I may try to remove the gas tube, it annoys me anyway, and fit one side of the nunchuck up and the other side down... Im using an already modded (rail fitted) Dboys handguard, so there are no ribs inside. my carryhandle is indeed plastic, not the screws or ironsights, but the "body" is, i scratched it a bit and theres no "metal shine, not to mention it feels pretty light compared to my ACM CQB sight... No a problem, just surprised me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Number5 Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 (edited) ISAMU, you are correct, the carry handle on the SOCOM is plastic, I was very disappointed with it, and the hand guard if truth be told, but a touch of Krylon made that slightly better, though I use a MOE handguard now! I felt that with the Socom, its as if TM almost knew the hand guard and the carry handle would be the bits user's would replace or get rid of anyway. in the end it didnt bother me as I intended to replace them! The Delta ring is also very weak! so weak that it would release the handguard if I caught the Delta ring slightly when using, wasnt as bad as it sounds, but I did find myself strapping the handguard up. I instaled a G&P delta ring, which fit perfectly! much better now! Edited April 28, 2010 by Number5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Thanks number five, I take note on that G&P delta ring. One of the things why I bought the socom was the carryhandle, it looks awesome on the basic carbine, even being plastic, I will bear with it util I go lipo and install a rail ^_^U Thankfully I have solved the nunchuck battery fitment, I just removed/hacksawed the gas tuve and now I can fit it, a bit tricky and tight, but usable now the trigger response is even better and the rof is insane, it looks like the gun is going to brake on me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 whats up with the delta ring is it the spring ? you guys want me to look into a stronger one down the road? dunno not got the socom! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 it took 18 years for the parts companys to get into the current state they are in with regards choice of parts. I'm not sure the advancement and historical trend of AEGs up till now is entirely indicative of how the Tokyo Marui SOPMOD/SOCOM will advance and be adopted by aftermarket manufacturers in the future. I've been airsofting for well over 25 years now. 18 years ago when the FAMAS came out, and the AR AEGs shortly thereafter, it truly was a revolution in the airsoft industry and the guns sold extremely well even though airsoft guns were really expensive back then and the budget guns we see today didn't exist. People were simply used to paying high prices. Aftermarket manufacturers jumped on this popularity and that market grew exponentially over the years since. Fast forward almost 20 years and we have the Tokyo Marui SOPMOD, a gun everyone can agree is far superior to the original version 2 gun. The problem is, while it's a better gun, it's also far more expensive than what the average airsofter is used to paying these days (thanks to all the ACM guns out there) and because many people are so invested in their old version 2 setups, they fear committing to a whole new system. These have been major contributing factors to why the SOPMODs haven't sold as well as they should, and the aftermarket manufacturers take note of that. They look at what's currently popular and they swarm all over it trying to get a slice of that pie. The WA GBBR series is a perfect example of this. It's a relatively new system, and yet it was so popular right out of the gate, many many companies came forward to make products for it. The SOPMOD is struggling in that regard. Jump starting the SOPMOD aftermarket revolution will probably come once one of the major aftermarket manufacturers finally chooses to support it, or as Isamu pointed out, if an ACM company made a cheap clone of it making it more accessible to airsofters previously used to paying ACM prices. Out of these two possibilities, the latter is more likely to happen, and once it does and if airsofters start buying the clones in high volumes, the more venerable manufacturers will hopefully take note and redirect their focus. Of course, there's other factors too, like a struggling world economy, something that effects both consumer and manufacturer alike. The conditions that promoted AEG adoption 18 years ago simply aren't the same these days. A whole new set of rules apply, and they are hindering the SOPMOD from being fully embraced as the new standard. Its this investment in the designs which most companys wont do. and it takes a lot of time to do copys and testing of each part. Not entriely true. Look at the aftermarket support for the WA GBBR system. I know many manufacturers personally. While tooling and molds are indeed extremely expensive, the airsoft aftermarket part makers are not against investing and producing products for a new system. The problem is, they have to see a clear market and significant consumer demand for it. And many of those manufacturers are sadly not seeing that level of need yet that'll ratify a commitment of money and resources to the SOPMOD system. I had this exact conversation several times with several different manufacturers while I was back in HK recently. They're curious about the SOPMOD, but they don't know enough about it, they're not seeing it as a hot seller, and because of that, everyone's waiting to see what everyone else is going to do because no one's willing to invest that much money on what they perceive as a major gamble. Personally, I'd love to see the SOPMOD system be fully embraced. It's high time the version 2 got updated and the SOPMOD adopted as the new standard. Reading through this entire thread I see a lot of really happy consumers. Let's hope those manufacturers start taking that gamble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 Didnt think about the investment on old M4s... thats a good point, but I too had an old gen M4 and while I keep it for loaning, I think the swap may be possible as many accesories are compatible with the new gen M4... What really impress me is that people keep buying past gen M4s which are even more expensive than the Sopmod/socom... not to mention they are highly outdated. Weird ^_^U Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 sorry uscmCorps we will have to agree to disagree on that one, from a manufacturing point of view gbbr are extremely cheap to make. Aftermarket company’s found it extremely easy to switch to churning out a few receivers and other machined parts. Without the need for new moulds etc.. Also where the parts are made GBBrs are extremely popular and actually usable, different markets. It was an easy decision for them to make gbbr parts... Just like the massive massive amount of pistol parts available its extremely easy to make a top slide for a gun which is why you see thousands of them. Its simply easier for them to do what they are doing. like i said in my whole post there’s already 1 major factor producing parts who are located in Japan, the only reason parts will be made more when acm comes out is because someone has cad up their own clone designs in china and once they hit the factory’s on the mainland the designs will be passed around left right and centre. It has nothing to do with popularity. they are simply waiting for the designs to fall in their lap. They won’t do the investment themselves.. Prometheus will have licensed the designs and models direct from TM for the Sopmod and payed for the privilege. Just like systema will have done back in the day when they became the first aftermarket parts manufacturer. I guaranty in china they only produce what designs they get off someone else. It would cost way to much to make a part, test it, wrong, throw it away, make a part, test it, wrong, try again... I’ve sold to customers all over the world there’s Sopmods in places i haven’t even heard of and never thought they even played Airsoft let alone an expensive gun like the Sopmod. I spoke to one fellow in Japan who said out of 100 players at a field there nearly 2/3s had sopmods.. Take gbbrs if i go to a game here only 1 person out of 100 will have one. Yet i know they are a popular platform. Its different wants all over the world. I know in America the sopmods a bit of a slow starter because of the lack of 400fps + springs and receivers for it but from what i gather milsims not that popular over there. But i know in Spain, England and Japan its really taking off. The Sopmods problem is that its designed for a milsimer and automatically shrinking its market that it can sell too. Someone who is willing to spend on all new mags.. so one who doesn’t use hi caps and that’s willing to pay more. I don’t believe price has anything to do with the gun and its popularity.. Take the PTW.. 1400 quid, maybe 1 in 200 airsofters buy one, yet i would consider it a popular gun. For example take a random extremely expensive car, there will be millions of people who say they won’t buy it because its too expensive. But i guaranty that extremely expensive car is constantly sold out. I know the Sopmod shipments over here sell out as soon as they arrive. It took absolutely years for the aftermarket parts to get this built up for the current guns out there. The sopmods just not had long enough, the sopmods got parts out for it we should be happy. I reckon 2 years maybe 3 till there’s an influx from when the sopmod was released. when a few more models have come out. All though there’s slight differences there’s lots of interchangeable parts between the various next gen models.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted April 28, 2010 Report Share Posted April 28, 2010 sorry uscmCorps we will have to agree to disagree on that one, from a manufacturing point of view gbbr are extremely cheap to make. Aftermarket company’s found it extremely easy to switch to churning out a few receivers and other machined parts. Without the need for new moulds etc.. Also where the parts are made GBBrs are extremely popular and actually usable, different markets. It was an easy decision for them to make gbbr parts... Just like the massive massive amount of pistol parts available its extremely easy to make a top slide for a gun which is why you see thousands of them. Its simply easier for them to do what they are doing. like i said in my whole post there’s already 1 major factor producing parts who are located in Japan, the only reason parts will be made more when acm comes out is because someone has cad up their own clone designs in china and once they hit the factory’s on the mainland the designs will be passed around left right and centre. It has nothing to do with popularity. they are simply waiting for the designs to fall in their lap. They won’t do the investment themselves.. Prometheus will have licensed the designs and models direct from TM for the Sopmod and payed for the privilege. Just like systema will have done back in the day when they became the first aftermarket parts manufacturer. Richard Y, you apparently know very little about China and HK airsoft manufacturing and what goes on behind the wizard's curtain. I KNOW the HK manufacturers. I've sat down and talked to them at length many times over the years. I understand what pushes them to make a product and what doesn't. I also know if there's enough incentive, these manufacturers will make the effort to CAD up things themselves and test and retest to make a viable product. The simple fact that you said the GBBR's were an easy and cheap transition for the manufacturers because they didn't have to make new molds ... shows you don't have a clue what you're talking about in that matter. Every aftermarket manufacturer who used to make AEG receivers and now make GBBR receivers as well, made entirely new molds based on new CAD designs. The work involved is not that much more difficult or more expensive than if they were to make aftermarket receivers for the SOPMOD. They just don't see the consumer demand for it. And I got that DIRECT from 3 major HK manufacturers. But if you want to delude yourself otherwise, that's fine. I want to support you because apparently you've been making some good products for people, but your last post was blatantly ignorant and full of guesswork that was poorly deduced. Stick with what you know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 (edited) yes i know the receivers moulded i could make version 2 through 7 parts if i wanted to but im not going to, its not that theres no demand, its that you can only do 1 thing at a time, they are doing gbbr, but if you want to ignore my whole posts points and pick out one wording error then whatever. Your right though i do make good parts oddly becuase i do know what im talking about. Truth is i could argue about this all day, theres absolutly zero point to it though... so im stopping Whether they can or cant, want to or not. It makes absolutly no odds we make do with what we have. Edited April 29, 2010 by Richard Y Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Number5 Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 (edited) whats up with the delta ring is it the spring ? you guys want me to look into a stronger one down the road? dunno not got the socom! Back on topic boys, as the only point thats valuable to this thread is that there are very few after market SOPMOD/SOCOM parts available at the moment... We just have to wait for its popularity to grow outside of Japan! Any way the Delta ring spring, is WEAK! Its barely even a spring, more like a piece of wire twisted to shape. Obviously when its compressed it does give some tension, but no way near as much as a G&P Delta ring! and in my opinion not fit for purpose. Edited April 29, 2010 by Number5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 roger that, springs are pretty easy for me, i could knock one of them up but ill need to buy a socom for testing so ill have to wait till after the recoil weights. unless anyones got a spare socom standard delta ring lying around i can borrow. i could just make the spring to the same dimensions then say increase it buy 100% in strength. Wouldnt wanna churn out 100 unless i knew it definatly fixed the problem. Ill source a delta ring spring and then knock one up twice the strength then maybe send it to you johnny for testing? You think twice will be enough? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 BTW Richard, how is the weight thing going? for recoil, I mean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 29, 2010 Report Share Posted April 29, 2010 what a ball ache... its costing more than it should taking longer than it should.. having to change the design.. suffice to say.. a pain in my backside but i wil keep at it! its not a quick process unfortunatly but i will let you know when ive got some news Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Chef Posted April 30, 2010 Report Share Posted April 30, 2010 (edited) Hell, the lack of aftermarket parts has never really bothered me. I'd say 90% of the guns I've owned have had almost zero aftermarket support! Star AW338, DSR-1, Marushin Garand, Ruger Mk1, the list goes on..... Going into it with your eyes open is a better way to look at it. I've made some BAD choices in my time, the Star AW338 and the WE GBBR M4 probably being the worst. Yes they are beautiful guns don't get me wrong and are well put together but they don't fire for poop and that's a real shame. And without the aftermarket support, that situation is not likely to improve. NOW.... With the Socom/Sopmod you don't actually have that problem. The Marui fires just fine out of the box, it will be reliable and go on for years in typical Marui fashion. Things like stocks, foregrips, delta rings, pistol grips, Rails, and all manner of other attachments do actually fit. We now have a source for springs so power isn't an issue and inner barrels and hop rubbers are standard anyway. We know this, because it's all here in this thread. Batteries can be made to fit (I've got a 9.6v mini in mine, and LiPo's will fit almost anywhere. This issue is no different to a standard M4. The only bits that aren't available are the myriad of different receivers and a varying outer barrel lengths (and is that really a problem?). So, in essence, whilst the specific aftermarket support isn't there, it doesn't mean there are no parts for it. For me. I bought it well in this knowledge and I don't regret it one bit. If you don't mind living with a standard engraved receiver for a while then get one now, you won't regret it either. If the lack of a Diemaco LaRue Marine SWAT body with HooYah on the selector really makes you want to turn the gun on yourself every time you pick it up...... then I suggest you don't get one, and go and check yourself into a clinic pretty sharpish. Edited April 30, 2010 by The Chef Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Isamu Posted April 30, 2010 Report Share Posted April 30, 2010 I like changing the look of my AEGs, and the M4 is the best for that... what I really hate about after market spares is that sling swivels are utterly expensive for utterly simple pieces, not to mention outer barrels, you can only get the PDI short barrel for... 80 bucks shipped? thats too much, and of course I would l ike to build a DMR setup in the future if the thing shoots as good as the people swears, so for that I need to change several internal things as using a longer M16 barrel (yeah,some fields here are very picky about compact DMRs). So, the thing is not about the low quantity of aftermarket pieces but about those aftermarket pieces not being the very basic or stupidly expensive, hope the clone changes this if it is released. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Richard Y Posted April 30, 2010 Report Share Posted April 30, 2010 (edited) outer barrels and sling swivels should be prity easy, its all about the tooling if its in then its doable, i never change any external parts on guns being a gunmechanic i tend to focus on vamping up insides, i have a team mate who does the external stuff i tend to leave it up to him. alright then guys help me out, external parts? take for instance the outer barrel what lengths would we need try to keep to standard lengths that you would get for m4s, also the part of the outer barrel that is inside the ris/handgaurd. It doesnt need to be its current thickness right ? i mean you cant see in there anyway ish, maybe if i reduced the overall thickness inside the ris/handgaurds between the delta ring and front sight. just an maybe help out those front wiring with ris battarys while we are in there. Combined with a stronger delta ring spring front wiring then could be a prity good solution. Im a bit anal about MAH size on my bats i like to get the biggest in there i can since i usually play day games in woodland. Anyone thats done that understands the safe zone can sometimes be a trek away. Ill cad up some models this weekend of swivels and barrels, got a 10k run on sunday so i might be hopitalised afterwards My sling is the blackhawk one it doesnt need a sling swivel so with regards to them ive had no need, so if i make one is there a preferable shape or fit, im assuming we are talking about the one at the back on the buffer tube near the reciever? Pics would be good of barrels and swivels. I too would want to go DMR at some point. although my reasons are just so i can say i did it lol With regards to prices, anything out of japan is made to a high standard but carries a higher price like the pdi stuff. Combined with shipping costs.. distributor mark-ups.. yeah it gets crazy expensive, I payed 90 quid for a pdi inner barrel, i reckon that’s a 500% mark-up yet it sells as we have no choice and it’s a great product. My stuff i deliberately underprice, not crazy low to under price anyone or devalue the part, just a realistic mark-up to fund other bits and that’s it then i deliberately do the cheapest shipping possible to other countries, i hate ordering from somewhere and it costs $40 for a tappet plate delivered its insulting i might make less money but as an airsofter myself I can sleep at night. My problem is I make stuff in such low quantities the per item cost is pretty high and its all first run stuff, second times cheaper. And if i was to distribute only to whole sellers I couldn’t offer discounts because of my prices and quantity’s. Unfortunately it takes lots of dosh to do what these manufacturers do! If only i had their resources! Edited April 30, 2010 by Richard Y Quote Link to post Share on other sites
The Chef Posted April 30, 2010 Report Share Posted April 30, 2010 Barrel lengths... well there are only really three that are of any importance (in my opinion). Commando/Standard M4/Standard M16. This should cover a number of options. M733/M933/CAR15/M4 and all it's variants/M16 and all those DMR's And if the outer barrel was threaded (for the flash hider), then the extra lengths could just be added as straight extensions (being threaded with male/female ends respectively). This then gives the owner the option to swap out the fore ends for what ever they desire. Something to consider about the sling swivels.... We know the stock tube is the same diameter as the real steel one (hence all those Magpul Stocks fitting), but it has that small step in it where it enters the back of the receiver. Is there any way to make like a heli-coil insert that screws into the receiver to allow it to take real steel stock tubes (or is the difference too small?). That would alleviate the need for special sling plates because real steel ones would then fit. Either that, or draw some new ones with the correct diameter and get them laser cut from sheet steel. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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