DMRs

[sniperelite7]

If anybody know where Short Stack plays, please write to the fields and inform of this cheating (in a constructive way).

 

Mmm that woudn't be the constructive way to go about it. Field owners would come down hard, too hard, considering he probably isn't even aware he is cheating the chrono. Yet, if he is running it as a dmr then he probably isn't even breaking the chrono rules. The pD need not be set too high on a polarstar. The higher that setting is the more energy creep the bb is subject too and typically it is kept lower than the default value. Or else your outright wasting air and killing accuracy.

 

Shortstack-I advise you to check out polarstartalk.com. Lots knowledgeable people on there who can help you out. Also access to a chrono that can read joules is an excellent tool, and arnies has an fps calculator that can crunch the numbers.

Edited October 11, 2012 by sniperelite7

[jal3]

Well it's hard to be short on that subject and still be constructive. Educating them on joule rules is incredibly hard. Field owners tend to be very stubborn.

---

Brainteaser: One could also argue that a polarstar is LESS efficient with a lighter BB than AEG's are...

Edited October 11, 2012 by jal3

[frogfish]

Pardon my ignorance but what is poppet dwell?

[jal3]

A general term for how long time a poppet valve is open. The time unit usually indicates how long time the solenoid that controls it is energized, not the actual time open.

[frogfish]

Ah ok, makes more sense now.

[Agent Hunk]

Scary as it is, what Short Stack is saying is a pretty common thought among a lot of Polarstar users and even field operators. The amount of false information on the subject is pretty dangerous considering how common the system is getting.

[Korppi]

:S This topic is a train wreck, I keep coming to see the flying limbs and burning bodies.

 

A bit of repeating but I find it disturbing that something this trivial can cause such a mess...Always chrono with the bb player is really playing with, hop set and deal in joules, seriously. And especially with guns using expanding gas prepare for joule creep with heavy bb. Site owners who don't think of this aren't up to the task. Locally never been a problem..And personally been using a p* for over a year now.

[Short Stack]

I understand the joule difference, nearly every field where I am chronoes with joules. (at least with polarstars)

 

Oh and I'm sorry that I'm not an expert on how my gun works, as far as I remember there are a ton of airsoft players who barely know how to work on their gun in the first place, so they are all idiots and shouldn't be allowed to play?

 

I'm also not breaking any rules at my fields. I understand how the polarstar is different. I understand it needs to be chronoes differently. What I didn't understand fully is about range. Not anything but range. Not field rules or idiocy. I'm kind of sad that I saw the replies some people put here - "He's not an expert on his gun, he's stupid and should be banned from every field around him." that's an incredibly offensive and stupid to say. Plenty of people who drive cars can't take the wheels off of them to fix a flat, so they are all idiots and going to instantly wreck on the road?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Short Stack

[intinerious]

I understand the joule difference, nearly every field where I am chronoes with joules. (at least with polarstars)

 

Oh and I'm sorry that I'm not an expert on how my gun works, as far as I remember there are a ton of airsoft players who barely know how to work on their gun in the first place, so they are all idiots and shouldn't be allowed to play?

 

I'm also not breaking any rules at my fields. I understand how the polarstar is different. I understand it needs to be chronoes differently. What I didn't understand fully is about range. Not anything but range. Not field rules or idiocy. I'm kind of sad that I saw the replies some people put here - "He's not an expert on his gun, he's stupid and should be banned from every field around him." that's an incredibly offensive and stupid to say. Plenty of people who drive cars can't take the wheels off of them to fix a flat, so they are all idiots and going to instantly wreck on the road?

 

Your analogy with the car is wrong. You should be comparing something like a driver with sufficient knowledge on how to DRIVE a car as opposed to a driver without a license and no knowledge on how to drive a car.

 

You're getting the wrong message as to why a few members here are frankly scared of your ignorance and your ownership of a P*. It's because for normal AEGs, if you're completely ignorant of how to modify your airsoft rifle you'll never be able to significantly up the energy output without cracking open the gearbox. So, there's a limit to how much your ignorance can be considered as dangerous in that case.

 

However, with the P* as far as I understand changing out it's output is relatively easy and given that it takes different considerations of mechanics and pneumatics to tune the P*, if you don't know what you're doing you have a higher chance of pushing your P* to shoot at dangerous levels compared with an AEG. That, and the fact that you can always tune a P* easily to a higher energy output than an AEG; coupled with the user's ignorance of high school physics, would convey the possibility that you might do something stupid with the P*.

 

Like I said before, it doesn't matter if it's a P* or an AEG that's shooting 0.4g bbs at 4J. Once it's out there's only two forces acting on it, gravity and air resistance, which we take as applying the same magnitude of force on both an AEG shooting 0.4g at 4J or with a P* shooting 0.4g at 4J. If both bbs are flying out of the muzzle at the same energy, and there is only two of the SAME forces acting on it; it's flight path is always the same.

 

Your lack of knowledge on high school physics and sticking to your beliefs that the P* can magically defy physics and shoot farther than an AEG is what's getting people all riled up. Not because you're not an expert on how your gun works. As such, that's akin to being scared of someone with access to a vehicle but don't know how to drive, as opposed to someone that doesn't know what every nut and bolt does in his car, but knows how to drive and mitigate him/herself from dangerous situations.

 

As for P*s being chrono'd differently....it shouldn't be. Once the bb exits the muzzle only two forces are acting on it that determines the energy of which it travels.

 

Other than revisiting high school physics I suggest you (or anyone else interested in the science behind the flight of a bb) to read this:

 

http://mackila.com/airsoft/ATP/

 

It's not entirely correct as I've gathered given that calculus wasn't used to determine the results above but I believe the science behind it is more or less valid.

[jal3]

We can only judge you from what you write.

 

Let me summarize the thread and repeat it for you very clearly.

 

A:

There is no such thing as velocity determing range.

There is only energy (joule) and BB weight (air drag).

 

B:

Energy is derived by calculating velocity and weight together.

 

C:

It does not matter what accelerates the BB up to a given energy.

 

D:

4,2J is the equivalent of a M210 AEG.

It is VERY rare to see an AEG performing to it's 210m/s rating with a 0,40 and hopup dialed as such.

If you compare your rifle with another persons AEG, both rifles must shoot EXACTLY the same.

That is, both rifles must shoot 145m/s with a 0,40 and the hopup set.

Otherwise, it's a wrong comparison.

 

If you do not understand this, just memorize it.

 

 

Here's some charts. Bitches love charts.

 

These are NOT EFFECTIVE RANGES. It is merely energy loss to air drag ratio information.

However, this is the main factor in why a heavy BB shoots further.

The graphs may not show it clearly, but the difference should be noted in relation to Y axis 0, not each other.

 

At 4,2 joule, we should be shooting 0,87 steel bearings for the longest range. It's unpopular for other reasons though

Edited October 12, 2012 by jal3

[flazzbog]

Yo Jal3. I just joined this thread. Where are these charts coming from? Do they include the magnus effect?

If so how have you dealt with the spin decay for different weighted bbs?

 

I'm interested in doing some tests to build apon the ATP which everyone knows about but my current project is making AWS style switch sets for V3 and Next Gen V2 gearboxes (almost done )

[Short Stack]

I understand that if an AEG is shooting 4.2j just like a p* it gets the same range- but so far I've never seen an AEG do that.

[Leon Kennedy]

I understand that if an AEG is shooting 4.2j just like a p* it gets the same range- but so far I've never seen an AEG do that.

 

Probably because if anyone has the nuts to shoot an AEG popping 4.2J I would beat them with their own rifle. Unnecessary force at its finest IMO.

[Short Stack]

Unless your making 400ft shots and have a 200ft min engagement.

[renegadecow]

Here's some charts. Bitches love charts.

I like dem charts... hey waitaminute!

 

Now do them for 8mm!

[WhiteHawksan]

label your axis!

 

200ft is beyond the effective range of most guns, your MED would be almost beyond your own effective range too. BB's maximum range is not determined by velocity alone.

 

Breezes are deadly to BB flight path, as is any small foliage etc. 300' is oft quoted as the maximum practical range for an AEG in ideal conditions. your MED of 200' makes your gun next to pointless.

[intinerious]

I understand that if an AEG is shooting 4.2j just like a p* it gets the same range- but so far I've never seen an AEG do that.

 

Or both a P* and AEG shooting at 1J with the same hop setup and hop applied, with the volume balanced....whether an AEG reaching 4.2J is not the issue here...

 

Unless your making 400ft shots and have a 200ft min engagement.

 

[Short Stack]

Last game I went to my gun was chronoed at 400fps w/ .2s. I used .4s and made plenty of 300ft+ shots. Were I live most guns shoot over 200ft. Wind and brush don't do much to .4s

[WhiteHawksan]

*stupidity*

 

*facepalm*

[Tarr]

Look just go here: http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/?filnavn=/articles/fps_limits/fps_calc.htm - now calculate what energy levels you are at when firing 400 with 0.2, then transfer those numbers a bit lower on the same page but use 0.4g as the bb weight -> that is the FPS you should be shooting at with a 0.4g bb if everything is set up correctly. Now get a chrono and double check your rifle before you hurt someone with that thing.

 

Now.. can things get back on topic? To get things rolling in the right direction here is a pic of my 'DMR'

 

[jal3]

Last game I went to my gun was chronoed at 400fps w/ .2s. I used .4s and made plenty of 300ft+ shots. Were I live most guns shoot over 200ft. Wind and brush don't do much to .4s

 

Let me summarize the thread and repeat it for you very clearly.

 

A:

There is no such thing as velocity determing range.

There is only energy (joule) and BB weight (air drag).

 

B:

Energy is derived by calculating velocity and weight together.

 

C:

It does not matter what accelerates the BB up to a given energy.

 

D:

4,2J is the equivalent of a M210 AEG.

It is VERY rare to see an AEG performing to it's 210m/s rating with a 0,40 and hopup dialed as such.

If you compare your rifle with another persons AEG, both rifles must shoot EXACTLY the same.

That is, both rifles must shoot 145m/s with a 0,40 and the hopup set.

Otherwise, it's a wrong comparison.

 

If you do not understand this, just memorize it.

[MotoSam]

Last game I went to my gun was chronoed at 400fps w/ .2s. I used .4s and made plenty of 300ft+ shots. Were I live most guns shoot over 200ft. Wind and brush don't do much to .4s

Did you explain to them at the chrono that although you were at about 1.5 joules with .2g bb's, you would be using .4's and pumping out twice as much energy on the field?

 

Your guns muzzle energy is not consistent depending on the ammo used.

Edited October 12, 2012 by MotoSam

[Sallinen]

Last game I went to my gun was chronoed at 400fps w/ .2s. I used .4s and made plenty of 300ft+ shots. Were I live most guns shoot over 200ft. Wind and brush don't do much to .4s

 

To put it simply:

Your gun chrono'd 400 fps with .2 BBs. Lets say it chronoes 350 fps with .4 BBs. Now tell me how much the energy of 350 fps with .4 BBs is in fps with .2 BBs? Much more than 400...

[Short Stack]

They were aware and didn't care. There are other fields that make p* chrono with the BBs they are using.

[Im going space]

Even if they dont care, would YOU happily let someone use exactly the same on you? I know for a fact that a .4 from that would hurt a lot.

I mean ive broken skin at 80m with a .36 (rifle was 420 on .2).