TSI Tavor Update

[fyurian]

13may and its finally shipped

[Amoki]

Firstly, much has been made of the fact that TSI has access to Tavor design docs- at least in respect of precise dimensions. Secondly empirical comparisons using photos clearly show size difference and disproportions. The TSI is visibly out from the RS, precisely how much will no doubt be revealed in the near future.

 

If you can't see what clearly a vast majority do see, then you obviously need to get those precise size deltas when that information is released.

 

Furthermore, if at a glance and/or casual viewing of the TSI and RS from pictures and videos reveals obvious size and proportion differences as opposed to differences determined through precise measurement, then it is not unreasonable to assert that such clearly and plainly obvious differences are indeed 'huge' in context of a so-called 'replica.'

 

BTW- I would not bet a donkey against a horse as the size, strength and athletic difference is very clear. I don't need a measuring tape nor do I need to insist they they stand side by side.

 

 

You only have to go back to the pics BK posted, comparing his M4 and Tavor with real steel M4 and real steel Tavor:

 

http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/forums/inde...p;#entry2210044

 

I think at this point it's not whether the proportions are wrong, but how wrong they are. The TSI version has extra height - just look at the handguard and how far the magazine extends.

 

One look at those pictures and I was just shaking my head. Those pictures are not even to scale: One is a Colt M4A1 (the AEG), one is a CQB-R-ish AR15 with a shorter barrel. A cursory glance wouldn't even tell you anything.

 

In fact, once you play around with photoshop and scaling the guns based on their upper-receiver (as if that is a good idea to start with):

The Tavor is roughly at scale without further scaling and resizing, and it seems that there is a good reason judging by shadow displacement to believe BKnewcomb's camera is *just slightly* tilted, enough to make the Tavor looks slightly larger that it is.

 

Using the real-steel AR-15 magazine and Airsoft AR-15 magazine to "scale" the Tavors to size:

 

And since no epic pictorial comparison is ever complete without a blinking gif (although bear in mind, both photos are not 100% scaled):

 

 

If TSI goes out their way to sue people for libel, I do not want to be in their way. And until a RS and the TSI version gets laid side-by-side for comparison, accusation of "wrong scale", "too big", "feels wrong at a glance" borderlines on demagoguery

 

Seriously, until the mod stepped in the sense of entitlment and mob-mentality in this thread was shocking. I haven't seen a trace of what actually constituted fanboy-ism - nobody really staunchly stood up and wildly defending the gun merely based on faith on a brand name, but it seems the moment you refuse to lay down your common sense and critical thinking, you get called fan-boys.

[bknewcomb]

One look at those pictures and I was just shaking my head. Those pictures are not even to scale: One is a Colt M4A1 (the AEG), one is a CQB-R-ish AR15 with a shorter barrel. A cursory glance wouldn't even tell you anything.

 

In fact, once you play around with photoshop and scaling the guns based on their upper-receiver (as if that is a good idea to start with):

The Tavor is roughly at scale without further scaling and resizing, and it seems that there is a good reason judging by shadow displacement to believe BKnewcomb's camera is *just slightly* tilted, enough to make the Tavor looks slightly larger that it is.

 

Using the real-steel AR-15 magazine and Airsoft AR-15 magazine to "scale" the Tavors to size:

 

 

If TSI goes out their way to sue people for libel, I do not want to be in their way. And until a RS and the TSI version gets laid side-by-side for comparison, accusation of "wrong scale", "feels wrong" borderlines on demagoguery

 

Seriously, until the mod stepped in the sense of entitlment and mob-mentality in this thread was shocking. I haven't seen a trace of what actually constituted fanboy-ism - nobody really staunchly stood up and wildly defending the gun merely based on faith on a brand name, but it seems the moment you refuse to lay down your common sense and critical thinking, you get called fan-boys.

 

 

Brilliant!

 

One look at those pictures and I was just shaking my head. Those pictures are not even to scale: One is a Colt M4A1 (the AEG), one is a CQB-R-ish AR15 with a shorter barrel

 

How dare you, Sir! That is no M4A1 AEG! It's a Real Steel AR15! Sacrilege! ...j/k

 

The Tavor is roughly at scale without further scaling and resizing, and it seems that there is a good reason judging by shadow displacement to believe BKnewcomb's camera is *just slightly* tilted, enough to make the Tavor looks slightly larger that it is.

 

Possible. I took the pics with my iPhone. It's a camara phone so the quality isn't the greatest and I have to hold it with my shakey hands and guess that i'm straight and not 'tilted'. I do admit that some of the parts do look 'beefy' but that's been discussed to death and there are practical reasons why that could be. (battery size, control board, etc)

 

 

Seriously, until the mod stepped in the sense of entitlment and mob-mentality in this thread was shocking. I haven't seen a trace of what actually constituted fanboy-ism - nobody really staunchly stood up and wildly defending the gun merely based on faith on a brand name, but it seems the moment you refuse to lay down your common sense and critical thinking, you get called fan-boys.

 

You sir, are a genius! THAT is exactly what i've been trying to say all along.

[zippenpipper]

I find it humorous that the image comparison effectively ended all debate.

[cazboab]

I find it humorous that the image comparison effectively ended all debate.

Except to me it looks like it proves that the TSI is about 10% too big- look how freakin' tiny the magazine looks, on the real one it hangs about an inch lower than the pistol grip, on the tsi its at best level and actually looks about a half inch higher.

[AustinWolv]

Except to me it looks like it proves that the TSI is about 10% too big- look how freakin' tiny the magazine looks, on the real one it hangs about an inch lower than the pistol grip, on the tsi its at best level and actually looks about a half inch higher.

I hope you realize that real AR15 30rd mags are longer than AEG M4 mags. The only AEG M4 mags that are truly the same size as real mags are the TM SOPMOD mags, and I believe an aftermarket midcap (but I can't recall which company offers it).

I can take a picture later if needed.

[davidson]

I hope you realize that real AR15 30rd mags are longer than AEG M4 mags. The only AEG M4 mags that are truly the same size as real mags are the TM SOPMOD mags, and I believe an aftermarket midcap (but I can't recall which company offers it).

I can take a picture later if needed.

RS Pmags and Mag brand midcaps are almost the exact same size.

[cazboab]

The problem with that theory is that all the extra length is above the mag catch, is taken up by the hop unit and is totally irrelevant.

[AustinWolv]

The problem with that theory is that all the extra length is above the mag catch, is taken up by the hop unit and is totally irrelevant.

Except when I line up an AEG with a S-Arms midcap and my Rock River with an USGI 30rd mag (overlaid on each other), the real mag is still longer in the gun by almost 1/8".

[Amoki]

The width and height photo comparison with 4 point of reference:

 

 

And note the top part of both tavors, Both tavors aren't aligned the same - meaning there is actually still some room for error unless you rotate the photo of that grid photo on the right to match the alignment, which I chose not to do for the time being because of the following point that I want to make out:

 

Some people seriously need to STFU. Drawing this grid and uploading only took a meagre 15 minutes, and take bugger all qualification considering you are only drawing lines - even a 16 y.o. with MSPaint can do this. It's has nothing to do with fanboy-ism whatsoever, it's just comes down to people being lazy.

 

Guess talk is cheap after all.

 

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again: there are legitimate concerns raised from that youtube video (and that Norwegian review) which TSI need to address definitively (creaky body is the main one- though I was told TSI has something to refute this in the coming week some time), and there are absurb accusations with no basis whatsoever, that people need to drop out. Really, show some rational thinking folks. Fanboy-ism isn't prevalent in this thread, mob-rules and mudslinging is.

[bknewcomb]

I don't think it was the body creeking. Here's a hint...watch his hands.

[Amoki]

This is going to be my final attempt to finish off the "OH GOOD HEAVENS! OUT OF PROPORTION!" discussion once and for all. No doubt some ego will be bruised. That's too bad.

 

Both pictures have been aligned and sized accurately - at least that is what I would like to believe.

 

Note that

1) The picture taken by bknewcomb was from an iphone and

2) there are reasons to believe that BK's photo is not taken at a right angle,

 

meaning some part sizes might be off-spec when comapred to the real steel, and some other parts*might* be blown out of proportion due to optical distortion. I do not gurantee any accuracte representation of the product, I am merely working with what I have.

 

What this means, is that they might be things that a few a little bit off in the picture, that might not be the case when you have the thing sitting in your hand and next to an actual real steel. In fact, I suspect without a measuring caliper, you wouldn't be able to tell the little differences less you have evolved to have the "magic glance" that some of us here claim to have.

 

The only thing that is noticeably different (in term of sizing) is the barrel: it is a few mm higher than where the real steel sits.

 

 

 

All in all: the product length is, until measured otherwise, "as advertised".

[Neno]

Bravo Amoki!!!!

[cazboab]

Well done Amoki. You've shown exactly what I said- that the magazine is tiny.

Except when I line up an AEG with a S-Arms midcap and my Rock River with an USGI 30rd mag (overlaid on each other), the real mag is still longer in the gun by almost 1/8".

That difference is not 1/8th of an inch. If it is the gun is an inch tall.

[beretta]

That can hardly be called "Scale" when the mags are so far off. even the width, which should be very similar between a real mag and an airsoft one.

surely that should have been your strongest point of reference when scaling the real with the TSi? insterad of just matching the gun as close as you can and leaving the mag miles off.

 

And if thats 1/8th of an inch i really have no confidence in your scale calculations. lol

[galactica]

exactly, beretta - the mag's width is the one sure comparison point. Now measure that and measure, say, the distance between the bottom of the trigger and the bottom of the pistol grip.

[madwelshman]

A turd is a turd, let it go, move on, buy the ARES one!

[Amoki]

That can hardly be called "Scale" when the mags are so far off. even the width, which should be very similar between a real mag and an airsoft one.

surely that should have been your strongest point of reference when scaling the real with the TSi? insterad of just matching the gun as close as you can and leaving the mag miles off.

 

It is a well-known fact (or is it given some people actually think otherwise?) that airsoft magazines in general are nowhere remotely close to the dimension of real-steel M16 magazines, and only a few airsoft magazines actually resemble real-steel dimensions, G&G hi-cap being one.

 

 

 

 

So with that in mind, where did you ever get the idea that they are similar?

[beretta]

So with that in mind, where did you ever get the idea that they are similar?

 

 

Well, I have both so my opinion comes from that. Its not gospel, its my opinion,

 

 

The difference between the real and airsoft mags is in the length. they are almost indistinguishable in terms of width. As I emphasis in my previous post,

 

The RS mag has approx 30mm more mag above the catch where as the airsoft one as only 7-10mm. this is why real mags are longer.

[cazboab]

Okay so I scaled the M4 receivers to match each other rather than scaling the tavor to match the tavor like amoki.

As you can see the TSI is an exact match in exactly one dimension to the real steel.

 

That being, the width of the magazine...

[AustinWolv]

That difference is not 1/8th of an inch. If it is the gun is an inch tall.

?

I was talking about overlaying the airsoft M4 and my real AR15 and comparing the mag lengths when inserted in the guns......the real 30rd mag extends 0.12" farther than the airsoft mag.

 

In regards to the pictures people are posting, the scaling is another thing...

[beretta]

Interesting, Nicely done.

 

its still a tough one. Notice the bottom of the grip is in line with the bottom of the magazine withe the TSi? whereas the real one is about an inch or more shy of the same line.

[Amoki]

Okay so I scaled the M4 receivers to match each other rather than scaling the tavor to match the tavor like amoki.

As you can see the TSI is an exact match in exactly one dimension to the real steel.

 

That being, the width of the magazine...

 

Except a day ago:

 

it seems that there is a good reason judging by shadow displacement to believe BKnewcomb's camera is *just slightly* tilted, enough to make the Tavor looks slightly larger that it is.

 

I guess... 2 weeks from now, one of us will end up looking like an idiot eh.

[Marlowe]

See my previous comments. A new thread should be appearing in general discussion - please use that for discussing the rifle. The TSI / disgruntled buyer comments should be left here.

 

Cheers.