leon_london Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Are the Tm tracer units really worth it? I always thought the Tracer units built into high caps would be better? The only time I have come up against a TM tracer, it looked like someone was flashing a torch my way and making it very obvious for me where to shoot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uscmCorps Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Thanks for the info AW! Are the Tm tracer units really worth it? I always thought the Tracer units built into high caps would be better? The only time I have come up against a TM tracer, it looked like someone was flashing a torch my way and making it very obvious for me where to shoot. Tracer Units are bad *albatross*! I haven't used them in years, but when I did, I preferred to mix in my regular rounds with tracer rounds in a ratio of about 7:1. That way... they help you see what you're shooting at and yet not give a constant line of BBs illuminating your location. When using tracer rounds I hand loaded my BBs so ensuring every 8th or 10th round was a Tracer round was easy to do (though a bit slow to load). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leon_london Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 It wasn't the tracer bb's giving the position away, it was the constant flash coming from the tracer silencer unit. Unless TM have brought out a differen't type now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wrench Bender Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) I have a buddy here localy that makes kits to build a tracer unit into your gun. Basicly he uses a UV diode that is attached to a hole you drill in your hopup feed nozzle. It produces some really bright tracer bb's. Edited March 4, 2009 by Wrench Bender Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jin15 Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) can anyone tell me if they use an ATN Viper and what they think of it? thanks -tat0r While I do not own any ATN devices myself, I think I've studied enough and am knowledgeable enough about Gen. 1 devices to answer your question. From all the user reports I have ever seen I would say to avoid ATN products like the plague. The Good : ATN has fantastic customer service and an excellent warranty plan. The Bad : You will contacting customer service and making use of your warranty plan very regularly. ATN products in general have an insanely high lemon rate (80% or more as far as I can tell) and the ones that are not lemons generally break in some manner within the first few months of even the most gentle use. I've read well over 100 user reviews of Gen. 1 ATN products and I've only heard of a few occasions in which users did not have some kind of issue with them that required the device to be returned to the factory for replacement, and most of the time (and by "most" I mean over 60%) the brand new replacement unit broke in some manner shortly after receiving it. Heck, one of our own members here from the UK (I can't remember his name at the moment) has had his ATN Mk 390 Paladin scope replaced by ATN a whopping 8 times and his current one still has "issues" with the reticle not working properly. So in general I would say to avoid ATN products. But if you're looking for a decent Gen.1 head mounted setup on a tight budget I'd suggest a Yukon NVMT 1x24 monocular with a head mount kit ---> http://www.opticsplanet.net/yukon-1x24-nig...-monocular.html It'll run you $300 to $350 depending on where you look so it's fairly cheap, but it's definitely one of the best Gen.1 devices I've had the chance to look through. Yukon products are generally a safe bet for Gen. 1 stuff though. Quality will be good (for Gen. 1) and you'll have a 3 year factory defect warranty incase anything goes wrong with it. I belive most of their products have a "limited lifetime warranty" as well, but don't quote me on that. Night Optics USA is also a good company for all Gen. 1 - 3 devices, but for the price of their Gen.1 stuff you're really better off either buying a Yukon or saving up for a Gen.2 device. In any case, the overwhelming number of user reports will tell you to stay away from ATN products. Edited March 4, 2009 by Jin15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Grimm Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Yukon products are generally a safe bet for Gen. 1 stuff though. Quality will be good (for Gen. 1) and you'll have a 3 year factory defect warranty incase anything goes wrong with it. I belive most of their products have a "limited lifetime warranty" as well, but don't quote me on that. Could not disagree more! Yukon NVGs are utterly ######. Had the mentioned monocular, turned it in within 6hrs: Bad headstraps (with crewcaps pushing against your forehead), blurry fishey vision, etc... If Gen1, Go Dipol! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jin15 Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Huh, I've had nothing but good experiences with the Yukon Gen. 1 stuff I've used... although, I won't deny the head straps on the 1x24 unit have a nasty tendency to shift around a lot if you're doing any sort of running around with them. You'll find yourself adjusting the head straps between skirmishes if you plan to do any sort of running around with it. Thus the reason I went with a weapon mounted optic rather than a head mounted one. Dipol certainly is a good pick though, I believe Night Optics USA re-brands many Dipol products as their own but includes a warranty plan with them which is something you don't get buying regular Dipol branded products. I've heard nothing but wonderful things about the Gen 2+ D-300 Mil-Spec, quality very close to that of a PVS-14 and 1/3 the price Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AustinWolv Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) TM tracer units are great fun. Similar to uscmcorps, I run a mix of regular and tracer BBs also. Unless TM have brought out a differen't type now? There is a new version that puts out less 'muzzle flash' than the original. I've heard nothing but wonderful things about the Gen 2+ D-300 Mil-Spec, quality very close to that of a PVS-14 and 1/3 the price Can't say I disagree too much with that. Had a Gen2+ D300 back in the day, and the optics were excellent. Very good resolution as well. It clearly did not intensify nearly as well as a Gen3 unit, but for the price, it could be argued it was a better value. Nice unit, as long as you went in knowing its' limitations and weight/size hits. The Gen1+ ATN unit I had prior to that was pretty much junk. Useless unless you were in high-ambient light urban environments. Just easier to use natural night vision than that thing. Edited March 4, 2009 by AustinWolv Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AustinWolv Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Ok, here's the current setup. PVS14 Gen3 on real MICH. Corsak IR with push-button tail and G&P PEQ2 IR also visible Ok, I need more hands, because trying to take pics to show the IR laser stuff was a pain. Pitch-black interior of house, IR illuminator on PVS14 on so the digital camera would pick up the image. An old Panasonic digital camera was simply held up to the eyepiece to take the picture. Distance was ~35 feet. Corsak IR at lowest power: Corsak IR at highest power: G&P PEQ2 IR laser only: G&P PEQ2 IR laser + IR illuminator: G&P PEQ2 IR illuminator only: For reference, outdoor, ambient light, no PVS14 IR illuminator on. The pics don't really do the PVS14 any justice, as it looks brighter and crisper in person....bad camera work: The G&P PEQ2 IR illuminator is much too focused and powerful for anything close range. Outdoors only on that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jin15 Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Austin... do you know, approximately, how much one might be able to get for a roughly 24 year old kidney currently in very good condition with no history of alcohol abuse? After seeing that last pic I'm starting to wonder whether or not I really need 2 of them Edited March 4, 2009 by Jin15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pkekyo-Nor Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Figure some of the people posting here has some clue regarding NVDs, so here goes; Does anyone know of any gen 2+ civillian NVGs that can be helmet mounted and shipped out internationally? cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AustinWolv Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 LOL Jin. It might be the time to keep an eye out though, as people might be dumping them to round up cash due to economic strains. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leon_london Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Are any of the Gen 1 sets really worth getting then or will the image quality be really bad? Im guessing night vision stuff is "you get what you pay for" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jin15 Posted March 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Austin, LoL I've been keeping an eye out lately and I have been seeing a lot of quality Gen.2+ and Gen.3 units go for a good 30% to 50% off retail price on eBay and Gunbroker.com, but even at the current low prices they're still a bit out of my budget. So I'll keep saving my pennies for a D-300 and in the meantime my little NVRS unit is serving my needs pretty well. Leon, I think it all depends on what you want and what you expect from your NVD. A lot of people will say Gen.1 is utter rubish and tell you not to buy anything less than Gen.2+ or Gen.3, but I personally think that's a lot like saying "Don't buy a digital camera unless you can afford a top of the line SLR camera". On the other hand, I have looked through plenty of Gen.1 devices that I didn't think were worth anyone's money. Horrible fish bowl vision, blurry picture at any range, and poor quality built in IR illuminators are common in the Gen.1 market. So it's a really hit and miss type of market... not all Gen.1 is created equal. Even the best quality Gen.1 devices will be rather rubbish compared to Gen.2 or 3, but they can have their uses and be quite a bit of fun to use. The biggest drawback of Gen.1 IMHO is that unless there is a good amount of ambient light (moon light for instance) you will need to use an IR illuminator to see clearly for any reasonable distance. The drawback of this is that the IR illuminator will produce a dark red glow which can give away your position in the dark... on the upside, the red glow on quality illuminators will only be visible if you're looking at it straight on. Look at it from even a 15° angle and you probably won't be able to see the glow in the dark. Gen.1 is also very touchy when it comes to the amount of light, both visible and IR, it can handle before images become blurry. Too little light and everything is very dim and your field of view is very limited, too much light and everything becomes blurry. And there is often a fine line between those two points. But, from my personal experience with using my Gen. 1 NVRS 1.5x42 with the use of an IR illuminator and a little bit of moonlight I've found I was able to identify human targets moving through the bushes out to 100 meters. Now when I say "identify" I mean just that, you can see a human sized and roughly human shaped object moving around by some other smaller blob type objects. At closer ranges (especially inside 20 meters) images are surprisingly clear (with the lens cap down to only let a little bit of light in and the IR illuminator on) and even digital clocks and large text are readable through the scope, but once you get out to 100 meters you're really just using the device to identify movement (and then open fire on the movement). Ranges in between 100 meters and 20 meters will be varying levels of clarity. Also, be aware that to get a clear picture at various ranges you'll have to regularly manually refocus the eye piece of your device. Some devices will require more focusing than others though, this makes the lower quality Gen.1 devices pretty much unuseable for most airsoft applications. I've used many Gen.1 devices that had to be refocused every time you wanted to change your viewing distance by 5 meters, but my NVRS really only has to be refocused if you're changing your viewing distance from inside 15 meters, from 15 to 60 meters, and to past 60 meters. And even then the refocusing required is pretty minimal. But words don't mean a whole lot, so I'll try and get some pictures through the scope tonight or tomorrow night to post so you can see what I'm talking about. All in all though I'd say Gen.1 can be worth it if you get a good model and know what to expect. Don't expect day time vision level of clarity in a green and black color scheme, and don't think the device will give you the "ultimate tactical advantage". Because your range and clarity will be limited and flipping on the IR illuminator will likely give away your position at some point, but to all other players without NV devices that IR illuminator is going to be a heck of a lot less noticeable than flipping on a torch (to other players with NV though the IR illuminator will light you up like a Christmas tree). If you can I'd highly suggest looking through a device you're interested in before buying it so you can get a good idea of what to expect from it. Because, well, Gen.1 can be very hit or miss. Like I said though, I'll get some pictures taken through my Yukon NVRS 1.5x42 at various ranges later tonight or tomorrow and post them up so you can get a better idea of what to expect from a well made Gen.1 device. Edited March 4, 2009 by Jin15 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmypie Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Are any of the Gen 1 sets really worth getting then or will the image quality be really bad? Im guessing night vision stuff is "you get what you pay for" Eat more carrots or just save mate, you'll love the gen1 to start with, then you'll try and use it in a game and be like "its ok", then one day you'll compare it to a Gen2+ or gen 3 and just cry. Anything under Gen2 you need seriuos IR illumination to make it viable "in Game". I had a Gen2+ british army KITE, which was awsome weapon mounted on a support or sniper platform but limited when it came to indoors. The ENVIS i now currently use is perfect,Its essentially a PVS14 in a different case and head/helmet mounting is not really an option, it fits a PVS14 weapon mount but its off centre, hence the set up ive now got, a bit "jerry rigged" but it works a treat. ive got it coupled with a G&P IR laser also and it rocks, I occasionally use it as a hand held scope for spotting but this gets limited when then needing to actually fight/shoot.but creeping around with just a pistol and that = priceless. Ill try and get some piccys of the image up. Edited March 4, 2009 by Jimmypie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ubar Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) More pictures of that device itself would be good Jimmy, looks nice and small Edited March 4, 2009 by Ubar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmypie Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 Will do Ubar, ill get some up tmrw for you, inside and out. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ubar Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 (edited) Nice one For the thread, an old picture of my ATN 'NVG'-7s Pretty good picture quality, but they lack the mounting options of military PVS-7s Some illum... Edited March 4, 2009 by Ubar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmypie Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 ok, just some quick snaps through the scope, ill try and do some more detailed ones tmrw, the war room,using the in built IR illuminator, the neigbours house, fence is only about 10 foot away.no IR The garden only about 20 foot long, no IR Quote Link to post Share on other sites
apmaman Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 I would kill the queen for a RIS mountable thermal imaging scope. NV is so cool but i have 0 use for it, apart from when I work nightshift I suppose? Save turning in the corridor lights. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crenna Posted March 4, 2009 Report Share Posted March 4, 2009 My soon to be sold ITT PVS-14A Gen 3 pinnacle tube. Got this unit sold with such a good price, that I have to add mere $200 and I'll get brand new autogated Litton PVS-18. If I happen to rob a bank, I might go with the Litton PVS-15 instead. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
leon_london Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Cheers for the info guys, I guess i'll leave the gen 1 stuff for now then. Maybe I could pick up some second hand Gen2 stuff for a similar price? But for how little use they would get (10 times a year at most?) I cant really justify spending 4 figures on them Im afraid Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmypie Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Piccys of the unit/device itself. what it comes with,ENVIS monocular, belt or sling mountable pouch made by Eagle, instruction/data card, blurb from ENVIS. Piccy showing on/off button and IR illuminator button, this is momentary only,hold it down its on,let go its off. also showing the homemade lens cover, from an aimpoint,little hole drilled for using in low light. showing the acog base attached, and front showing IR bulb, Dat/info card, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jimmypie Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 And what the "blurb" says, "Ever since Desert Storm,there has been a push to install a night vision device in military survival vests for night evasion in hostile territory.The technology has been there for years,the challenge was to make the device affordable.Since the mid-90's NVEC has worked the price issue and finally devised a cost effective approach that satisfied even those in the Pentagon.The answer was to use ANVIS tubes that were being rejected from flight because of cosmetic spots and other minor blemishes that caused them to fall short of MILSPEC flight requirements. The image intensifier used in this ENVIS is one of those rejected ANVIS tubes. It will provide exceptional service and capability,but you may see some blemishes that would not be seen in a MILSPEC tube.It is our wish that this device never be used for its intended purpose. However,if it is,we have full confidence that it will faithfully serve the night evasion mission." Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pforcerecon Posted March 5, 2009 Report Share Posted March 5, 2009 Just out of curiosity, for those of you who have the G&P PEQ with IR qualities, how much did they set you guys back? Or did some of you install them yourselves, since I remember when the PEQ first came out and there was the review thread on them, one forum member mentioned I believe that the IR laser diode was a drop in from another IR laser, and tried with a Surefire M1 IR to see if it would be a drop in, but mentioned it would probably take some work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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