17 year old German goes on rampage

[Blade3000]

I see that a young man went on a killing spree in Germany. Does anyone know how a 17 year old got the gun. I am completely unfamiliar with German firearms laws, did he just buy it a t a gun store or is that not even possible ?.

 

 

Thanks

glock21

[Benjamin Willard]

According to press, his father owns several guns and stored the one used improperly. At age 17 it is impossible to buy a weapon like the one he used, even if you are a member of a gunclub. You have to be 21 to do so, and it is pretty tough to get a proper license.

 

He also is someway or other connected to airsoft, as was the last guy who committed such a gruesome act. Possibly pretty bad for airsoft considering the even tough restrictions we face right now.

 

My thoughts are with the families of the victims.

[Royal-Air-Force]

AFAIK Germans are increadibly strict with gun laws. Airsoft have to be semi-auto etc.

 

Then again, we (Britain) are apparently strict about our gun laws but it is very possible to get hold of SLP's, Sub-machine guns and even the odd assault rifle (illegally of course).

 

 

Possible to get all those things legally, but you will spend about double your lifetime filling in forms and sending them off.

 

 

Gah, trust someone who knows what they're talking about to turn up before me.

[Fin]

Another took place in Utah a day or so ago as well, expect the news will be doing some detail articles about the two over the next few days

[Mike_West]

Utah? I only heard that some nutcase in Alabama killed his family and then went to shoot two of his former bosses.

[Blade3000]

Yeah there was a nut who shot up a church in Utah.

 

So on German gun laws he would not likely have been able to legally obtain the guns ? I kind of thought they would have strict gun laws.

 

Thanks

glock21

 

 

[Punkypink]

A 17-year-old who would give only his first name, Aki, said he had been studying this year with the shooter at a private business school, and described him as a quiet, reserved person.

 

Aki said the two played poker together, both in person and online, as well as a multiplayer video game called "Counter-Strike" that involves killing people to complete missions.

 

"He was good," Aki said.

Yay blame the media, games etc. Nobody ever stops to think about how our society deliberately discriminates, alientates and isolates anyone we do not socially consider "conventional" or "normal", and then act all surprised that *suitcase* like that happens.

 

I mean, I don't agree that what he did was right, but really, most of us live in a nice little bubble without ever considering that our prejudice, ignorance and unacceptance of anyone who isn't conventional by an archaic social sense do hurt people, and that hurt does play a part, however minute, in creating such "monsters", and that ultimately we're all collectively responsible for stuff like that when it does happen. If we were more understanding and more accepting of people who aren't "normal" in the conventional sense, maybe *suitcase* like that would happen a lot less.

[WhutJP]

Yay blame the media, games etc. Nobody ever stops to think about how our society deliberately discriminates, alientates and isolates anyone we do not socially consider "conventional" or "normal", and then act all surprised that *suitcase* like that happens.

 

I mean, I don't agree that what he did was right, but really, most of us live in a nice little bubble without ever considering that our prejudice, ignorance and unacceptance of anyone who isn't conventional by an archaic social sense do hurt people, and that hurt does play a part, however minute, in creating such "monsters", and that ultimately we're all collectively responsible for stuff like that when it does happen. If we were more understanding and more accepting of people who aren't "normal" in the conventional sense, maybe *suitcase* like that would happen a lot less.

QFT.

 

"Good people" can be such *fruitcage*en bastards.

[TheMightAdam]

But theres still no reason to go out and start killing people. He should be hanged.

[Pedro30]

weird how all these shootings start to happen just as a bill to allow ccw in Illinois appeared...

 

http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/billstatus...mp;SessionID=50

 

*Conspiracy alert*

 

these shooters are government implants that want to deter CCW in illinois, which is THE MOST gun unfriendly liberal hippy democratic state there is

[askeytheman]

But theres still no reason to go out and start killing people. He should be hanged.

 

He shot himself after taking a bullet in the leg.

 

The times and the *tsk* mirror both said he used to play airsoft - althought neither gave it its real name.

Times said:

"Reiner Wehaus, a freind who shard his love of guns, said: "He knew his weapons really well. These were mainly air pistols, which fire pellets.. he got himself his own arms cabinet and that covered several square metres of his wall - i reckon about 30 - 40 weapons"

 

Which wasn't added to the 7 weapons his father owned (and the 9mm Berratta wasn't locked up, it was left in a bedroom..).

The way they describe the weapons he had on his own as 'pellet' guns, makes it sound like airrifles as we Brits know them, shooting metal pellets..

They even go on to say that "'once or twice a year we would have air gun battles in the summer,' he told the Stuttgarter Nachtichten newspaper. 'Everyone had protective goggles.'"

 

Another blow for German airsofters, and probably for European groups as well.

[chownsy]

AFAIK Germans are increadibly strict with gun laws. Airsoft have to be semi-auto etc.

 

Then again, we (Britain) are apparently strict about our gun laws but it is very possible to get hold of SLP's, Sub-machine guns and even the odd assault rifle (illegally of course).

 

 

Possible to get all those things legally, but you will spend about double your lifetime filling in forms and sending them off.

 

 

Gah, trust someone who knows what they're talking about to turn up before me.

 

 

saying about uk laws, ive heard recently that you can get any weapon you want illegally in the uk. someone told me if you have £10000 you can get a barrett .50 with ammo. (was a year back i heard this but i presume its true as some the weapons that were handed in at gun amnesties prove that anythink can be got)

[Chimpy]

You can own a Light Fifty legally in the UK.

 

I'm not sure the availability of illegal guns is all that great, unless you happen to already be mixing within the criminal fraternity. All this "I know a pub where I could go get a pistol" is in my opinion posturing ######s. They might think they know somewhere but there is a big difference between that and actually getting a weapon rather than a series of odd looks.

[R-KivE]

Its sad that a massacre like this has happened again. I really can't understand why someone could be so destructive to kill innocent people.

 

Hope the little *beep* goes straight to hell.

[Abelius]

Seeing that there are more depressed and suicidal teenagers than ever, it's a wonder to me that these things don't happen more often. The shooters seem to think that it's better to go and take someone with you, as it will make the media and world interested in you compared to if you'd just slit your veins open in silence. Ofcourse, it's never that simple, but I think it's the major reason (at least in the school shootings over here).

 

Anyway, condolences.

[Habakure]

My thoguhts go to the families and friends after these tragedies. Yes I think it should be looked at how society can alienate and generally make a person that has different views or ideas feel worthless and or someone to fear.

 

But also, the flip side to this coin is that there are people that want to kill and do so without being alienated and or segregated from the rest of so called normal society.

 

With these school killings though, I maybe mistaken but they seem to have happened only in the last 30 years or so (I could be worng going from memory here so apologies if am mistaken). It makes you wonder why they do happen. Is it because the person wanted to be imfamous or to act out his revenge/anger at the very place they feel there pain began.

 

Such lose of life sickens me but also its not so black and white the reasons why it happens. Of course I think punishment should reflect the crime, but what punishment can reflect the atrocity of killing people, and also in a place such as a school. I have found memories of school and also bad one's, but my good far out wiegh the bad (My bad memories where to do with my lack of ahcievment not being picked on and or bullied.).

 

Maybe now we need to be addressing the need for more done to help people who feel alienated (Not saying nothign is being done now) or indifferent.

[Roecar]

I'd agree that the student was or became alienated by his peers, it could have been he said the wrong thing to "x popular kid" and things go down hill form there, who knows. If he did indeed become alienated I'd expect the school to try and pick up on these things via counselor or something.

 

And yes the father definitely should have store his guns safely... and I would've thought his parents would notice any serious changes with their son.

[Punkypink]

What really ticks me off is how the media then uses such incidents to push their own agendas of "ohhhh games are bad they make monsters"

 

Theres this singaporean guy who hung himself recently right? He was a medical officer under bond to the Singapore Armed Forces (SAF). He committed suicide because of the SAF. But you know what? In the singapore media, what did they do? They blotted out parts of his suicide letter, and then blamed his suicide on the fact that he played World of Warcraft! How *fruitcage*ed up is that? I've linked his letter below, its clear to see who is to blame. Certainly NOT World of Warcraft. This was a smart guy. He knew that the Singapore media would attempt to smear him and his reasons for suicide so he ensured that his letter reached... independent, non-government controlled media sources.

 

http://www.wayangparty.com/wp-content/them...ils/allan01.jpg

 

How sad that people would rather find false scapegoats to blame for things like that rather than recognise the real culprits and admit their own collective responsibility for their contributions to an uncaring, bigoted society.

 

My thoguhts go to the families and friends after these tragedies. Yes I think it should be looked at how society can alienate and generally make a person that has different views or ideas feel worthless and or someone to fear.

 

But also, the flip side to this coin is that there are people that want to kill and do so without being alienated and or segregated from the rest of so called normal society.

That may be true but I doubt this kid was one of them. People who kill out of pleasure, do not do it in a public manner or in such a way that escape is impossible. In fact people who kill out of pleasure would seem perfectly "normal" and integrated into society. Just consider the infamous BTK killer, Dennis Rader. He was an upstanding, perfectly normal member of his society and community, the president of his church's congregation council. People who end up killing out of despair like that german kid would outwardly show signs of dissociation and alienation long before they killed. I'm not defending anyone here but really if we want *suitcase* like this to stop we have to start by examining our collective contributions to stuff like that. How many of us here can rightfully say that we show tolerance and acceptance to people who aren't normal by our standards?

[Jagdraben]

Yay blame the media, games etc. Nobody ever stops to think about how our society deliberately discriminates, alientates and isolates anyone we do not socially consider "conventional" or "normal", and then act all surprised that *suitcase* like that happens.

 

I mean, I don't agree that what he did was right, but really, most of us live in a nice little bubble without ever considering that our prejudice, ignorance and unacceptance of anyone who isn't conventional by an archaic social sense do hurt people, and that hurt does play a part, however minute, in creating such "monsters", and that ultimately we're all collectively responsible for stuff like that when it does happen. If we were more understanding and more accepting of people who aren't "normal" in the conventional sense, maybe *suitcase* like that would happen a lot less.

 

This sort of violence was virtually unknown until the mid-1970s. And it has only accelerated since.

 

So, what changed in the mid-1970s? What made us so much less accepting of these social outcasts?

 

Wait! It's not our fault. It's their fault! The person who pulls the trigger has chosen to pull the trigger. They are responsible for their own actions. We, as a society, are not, except in teaching them that it is somehow acceptable.

 

I may feel pity for these people who feel the urge to murder their fellow classmates and their teachers, but it does not extend to excusing their violent and destructive behavior. Living means suffering. If these people cannot stand it, then they can suicide themselves. When they choose to kill their friends and neighbors before killing themselves, they are nothing short of narcissistic twats. They deserve neither pity nor understanding. They do not deserve the attention lavished on them by the media. All that they deserve is to die as they lived, quietly and ignominiously.

[Punkypink]

We don't force them to pull the trigger but we create the monsters that luck within them. I don't excuse their violent behaviour either, but if u REALLY want stuff like this to stop, then its time to stop pushing the blame. Callous attitude's like Jag's while understandable, certainly will NOT help to reduce such incidences.

 

Personally I am more interested in stuff like that not happening anymore than some theoratical "its not our fault" bulls**t

[Robinio]

Wonder if it will happen in Finland this year too, so much of this "killing sprees" now

[Habakure]

I think its fair to say violent crime has existed for a very long time, just seems that now there are new ways to carry out crimes (All crimes not just this atrocity). I have to agree with Punky Pink as we are not saying that being alienated etc is a just cause to go on a murdering rampage but we have to look at the reason why he/they did it.

 

So remeber I dont think no one here is saying that he is justified in this hanious act of killing people, but we are trying to say that we like to blame materials and scare mongering instead of looking at our sleves and how we precieve the world and those around us.

 

Have we reached the point where we chose not to help people who are different due to being afraid of being called the same. Is it that we are blind to signs of unrest in a person or pain, could it be that we are more concerned about buying the next best thing than noticing a person in work who people avoid due to there hobbys and or interests. And with that start to avoid them, and by doing that are we creating a prison like setting for them, yes they are seen but are they accepted.

 

I know a hole wide range of people and one thing that has always disgusted me is people lashing out at a person just because of the way they dress or the hobbys they are into.

 

So long as the hobby does not involve hurting others or something like along those lines (Just incase someone trys to say am saying any hobby is axceptable. ANd what I mean by that is no killing for fun, beating people up those kind of hobbys).

[Chimpy]

I'm not sure it's as easy as you make out PunkyPink. What combination of factors lead to feeling alienated enough to go on a rampage like that, what are the other enabling factors and why shooting sprees? There must be many PHDs worth of research there on a pretty small sample set. Even then I'm not sure there are any really easy answers to solve the issue.

 

Also and this will sound callous but the public perception of these events seems terribly media driven. Many more people have died of mundane and preventable things during this last weeks spate of shootings than have died in these 'exciting' and 'interesting' incidents.

 

Jagd is right to a point though, it is a decision at the end of the day to go pick up a gun and start shooting people. Society may be to blame for some of a persons issues but not everyone in that situation picks up a gun and goes killing. Absolving the shooter of responsibility is just as silly in trying to unravel why people commit these shootings as saying you don't care why they did it.

[-Angel-]

Everyday people stop caring about life. Some go out quietly. Some want a finale.

 

Way of the world unfortunately.

[snorkelman]

dont see anything in reports thus far to suggest he'd been cast out as some sort of social pariah.

 

Could be just as easy for someone to feel life doesn't live up to their own egotistical over-expectations as it is for someone to find life expects too much of them

 

eg perceived slights where none existed or were intended, expectation of gaining a varied and exciting job when they're as thick as two short planks, or belief they should be viewed as life and soul of the party when in reality they're a boring *tortilla chip* etc

 

as for shooting sprees they often strike me as being carried out by someone who's already decided they want to shuffle off into the ether but, rather than going ahead and just doing so on their own, need to create some sort of major *suitcase*-storm of that sort to put them beyond the point of no return (ie to ensure theres no backing out for themselves when its their turn).

 

Do have to wonder if it would be better simply not to name or identify them - little incentive for the ego driven ones to see it thru if theres no prospect of making a posthumous name for themselves. Stick em in an unmarked hole, take down their youtube and facebook 'final testament' drivel and move right along.