Uber Knifing!

[Thorbard]

I'm with Skarclaw. Where I play, lots of people carry real knives because they are a useful tool. Real knives are, however, dangerous.

 

I have an issue with someone putting something that is even potentially lethal near several major veins and arteries.

 

And for the record, someone at that site got a 'knife kill' with a real knife. No contact.

[Punkypink]

I'm with Skarclaw. Where I play, lots of people carry real knives because they are a useful tool. Real knives are, however, dangerous.

 

I have an issue with someone putting something that is even potentially lethal near several major veins and arteries.

 

And for the record, someone at that site got a 'knife kill' with a real knife. No contact.

So a rubber knife's fine since it isn't potentially lethal right? I am a bit surprised tho, that people are allowed to skirmish with real knives. The sites I play at, at the very least do not allow fixed tangs to be brought into skirmishes. The only thing i carry that can really cut in a skirmish is a tiny victorinox that also has a handy mini phillips head screwdriver.

 

Btw how did that someone actually get a knife kill with a real knife?

[greg]

I'm with Skarclaw. Where I play, lots of people carry real knives because they are a useful tool. Real knives are, however, dangerous.

See, this is where we have to respect the 'differences' in groups of people:

 

I'm not sure that knives are a useful tool, for anything other than cutting things. & how often do you have to cut something in the middle of a skirmish? Really, something that couldn't wait or be dealt with in some other way?

 

So where as you feel threatened by people approaching you with rubber knives, I'm not sure about skirmishing with people carrying real ones.

 

The sites I play at have banned all 'real' blades, in line with legislation. (Prohibited articles etc.)

 

So, while I respect your view point, I feel that it is somewhat diluted by the fact that you are fine with 'useful tools'.

 

Unless you are talking about swiss army knives & lethermans etc, which should really stay in your kit bag & not be taken into the field of play.

 

As for 'getting a knife kill with a real knife' how ambiguous is that.

 

 

Greg.

[Dom S]

I think the whole point is moot. You shouldnt be carrying that knife with you in public (at least in the uk) and im surprised that any sites allow real ones. Rubber knives i feel are fine though. Ideally, i would like to see knife kills actually having to be performed as if you could have killed them, for exaple a fake throat slice or stab in the chest/back. However, i can understand people not taking to kindly to this, and they would probably shout out, getting you killed anyway.

 

failing the possibility of that working, simple tap kills will have to do, as crappy as it really is. To take it further, i think in a situation where simple tap knife kills are fine, i feel the knife is superfluous anyway. In a real situation you could just as easily snap their neck or Bludgeon them with your rifle. so all that should be necessary is any unexpected contact from the other team

 

Just my 2 cents worth

[AliceHKfan]

if I could + did skirmish I'd wanna go with a Hissatsu trainer, but in theory that'd be pretty unsafe as it is still metal.

[Krait]

lol i just shoot them I dont even think to do a safety kill

[evansy]

But, there are folk out there who claim not to take kindly to this sort of thing. I've never met any personally, but some have posted that they would even go so far as to 'defend themselves' from this sort of personal attack.

I've met people who say things like that and tbh they're not the kind of people I like to play with. Infact most of the time there the kind of people who would (if my local site allowed it) carry real ka-bars and bayonets.

As for multi tools and Swiss army style knifes they are handy things to have stashed somewhere for in game repairs. There's been a few times when having one on my would have saved me a long walk to the safe zone to repair my guns.

[amateurstuntman]

I like using my rubber knife.

My trusty old hallow e'en type kiddy knife broke a while ago and I treated myself to a proper Cold Steel training knife.

 

 

I play airsoft for fun. I have access to some cutting-edge training through the amazing courses Andy runs at FCS academy but although it would be an incredible experience it doesn't suit my style of play.

 

I cock about, tell jokes and charge into the teeth of my opponent wearing a t-shirt and no armour, sometimes I do so with my knife.

If someone has a problem with rubber knife usage they can naff off and play somewhere else, they are allowed by the site owners.

 

You need to have a sense of humor to play this game.

 

If some crazy mook hit me after I knife tagged him there would be police involvement, no macho standoff, no empty threats, I'd just walk away and drop a dime.

 

I can understand the frustration of being eliminated added to the humiliation of being owned by a 17 stone gorilla being able to either sneak up on you or charge you before you could react might lead you to anger.

But they should direct that anger at themselves and not outward.

Use it to power their focus and stay alert.

 

 

 

[jagillham]

The thing take gets me with knife/bang kills is that some people just use it to a stupid advantage. Had a guy stick his head into a room for half a second, shouts bang, and expects everyone to be dead.

 

On the knife kills, from behind, fair enough. If you come from the front, you're pretty much relying on the person being kind enough not to mow you down at a close distance, rather than "surprise".

[Skarclaw]

I maybe should of put in my post that I wouldn't start any *suitcase* or even get angry with some guy if they knife killed me, because 1) I don't want to start fights and 2) I don't really care if I get "killed" in an airsoft game (I suck!)

 

My main discomfort with the whole thing is that even though I play at a small site, I don't know everybody, and to think that there are guys who are gonna come up and stab me with (admitally a rubber) knife is not really something I feel completely secure with.

 

As for leathermans, I tend to carry one in my butt sack, but mainly cause of the screwdriver and out of habit of going outside I tend to have one with me, I rarely use the knife and and its so small and blunt that its useless other for maybe cutting small twigs etc or some tactical chorizo.

 

There are plently of people I would be fine with stuff like knife kills, but for the most part a bang kills or a tap on the shoulder will suffice within an airsoft game. Maybe I don't get immersed as others though.

[RSM]

My two pennies worth:

 

At an ordinary open day, I don't mind getting poked/slapped centre mass or extremties/bayonetted as long as pointblank hosing isn't going on with a fake knife, spork, 12 inch double ended dil-*ahem* as long as people don't start physically grabbing parts of me, mainly because I don't want to inadvertantly hurt someone by flailing in a 'excuse me wtf r u doin' way. I'd feel bad if while playing a game I end up elbowing them or something because I panicked when I feel arms going around me and lash out and no doubt the other person would be pretty peed off too. That said, I try to ensure that I'm never in a position to be be 'knifed' unawares.

 

Now, if in the days brief it was mentioned that the play style permitted more physical contact with regards to restraint/commandeering weapons (I'd love to be able to somehow do Equilibrium style Cleric stuff in CQB if everyone else didn't mind) and I was previously aware such rules were in play as was everyone else and you could say thats what everyone is there for then I can't say I'd be too fussed if someone runs up from behind me and smacks the back of my legs with a plastic katana or uses me as a human shield Sam Fisher style.

[spetsnazdave87]

When my battery has gone in a night game I not only jumped on a member of the opfor while tapping him on the head with a rubber knife I also turned him around and used him as a human shield. He thought it was hilarious and didnt mind at all!

 

Fair play though, I think a few of those guys didnt realise you werent on their team but its still a win!

 

Dave

[Punkypink]

The thing take gets me with knife/bang kills is that some people just use it to a stupid advantage. Had a guy stick his head into a room for half a second, shouts bang, and expects everyone to be dead.

 

On the knife kills, from behind, fair enough. If you come from the front, you're pretty much relying on the person being kind enough not to mow you down at a close distance, rather than "surprise".

When charging around corners, a frontal assault also relies on surprise. Where I play, people WILL mow you down at close distance. I full expect that and nothing less. It can be a bit discrediting to say a frontal knife assault is based on the kindness of others when it very much depends on skill as well. Lets just say I have been on the wrong end of a frontal assault by a guy running thru a hail of fire from at least 4 enemies with a rubber knife. That was supreme skill and I would not hesitate to give acknowledgement to skill where deserved.

[jagillham]

In some cases maybe. Depends where you play, and what the general consensus is on site. If people making frontal knife assaults are happy to get mown down, then fair enough. So long as everybody knows it is ok to shoot near enough point blank.

 

Most the places I play I'd feel uneasy taking a shot at anyone less than 5 meters away really. Suppose it all comes down to a site by site thing. So long as everybody is playing the same rules and morals, then great.

[spetsnazdave87]

I suppose if someones willing to risk charging you with a rubber knife at close range, shouting 'bang' isnt gonna cut it

[Mat]

<snip>

 

If some crazy mook hit me after I knife tagged him there would be police involvement, no macho standoff, no empty threats, I'd just walk away and drop a dime.

 

<snip>

 

+1 assuming I don't know them/it wasn't an honest mistake... although no knife kills rules at my current regular site though (that and I'd walk away and use my mobile, as I'm not OG Pimp Hustler enough to use American slang... word ).

[lawofthirds]

I'm not a fan of knife kills. First off, noone who actually gets stabbed with a knife is quiet. Even a cut throat is pretty loud according to most accounts. Secondly, when players are attempting to make physical contact, accidents can happen. I've seen someone "bayonet charge" someone for a kill. If he had tripped and fallen while he did his run up, it could have easily been "ruptured internal organs after some twit jammed a metal rod into someone's stomach". And thirdly, we have veterans of several major conflicts who play airsoft in my area. Running up and shoving a knife at one might end up with you wondering why you have a m4 wrapped around your head, a rubber knife up your rear, and a very apologetic veteran standing over you saying "sorry, trained reaction".

[jagillham]

I think you've hit the nail on the head there. When your under fire (all be harmless plastic) and planning your next run to the nearest cover. Coming up behind somebody psyched up and grabbing them could so easily see an instant reaction, totally based on instinct.

 

Besides, I think coming up behind somebody and either shouting BANG as loud as you can, or whisper really close "knife kill" is much funnier

 

[greg]

"sorry, trained reaction".

So I'd say, "VERY LOW QUALITY TRAINING!"

 

Surely they are trained to know the difference between a 'life and death situation' & a game of airsoft?

 

I'm sure that if you asked them nicely, they would be able to tell the difference. They ain't on mind altering drugs are they?

 

This 'trained reaction' thing just sounds to me like an excuse to start a fight. Personally I'd steer clear of a skirmish site, if I genuinely thought there were any kind of people there (military or otherwise) who would turn physically violent for any reason.

 

I am amazed that ex/military personnel are seen this way. Those that I have shared time with are incredibly well disciplined & the thought of lamping someone on the skirmish field, who posed no real threat, (while amusing) would be completely out of order.

 

People who are trained to fight, are also trained to recognize WHEN to fight.

 

 

Greg.

[Mat]

Got to agree with you there Greg, for many years I LARPed alongside and did Bujitsu training under someone who now lives in the States and makes his living as a Ninjitsu instructor, oddly in all those years of fighting him he never once got confused between a game/training and real life and pulled out anybody's still beating heart. I still LARP, Airsoft and occasionaly Fence alongside some very highly trained martial artists, swordsmen etc, not one of them has ever got carried away when suprised and full force attacked someone.

 

If somebody claims their response was a trained reaction, then they are full of BS and as Greg said have been trained very poorly. Also if you are trained (ie Martial Arts, SIA, etc Licence Holding) IIRC you can expect to get in a world more trouble with the Constabulary and are likely to lose said licence.

 

Mostly it needs to rely on a sensible method of using the knife kill, a 'tapping out'/hand on the shoulder system is fine, one that involves mock combat I wouldn't touch unless I knew 100% that everyone there was trained at least to my level and preferably higher, lol.

[AirsoftAddict]

I have ordered a rubber knife just for knife kills whilst i have the same version in hard plastic just for having on me. I am not sure I would use the hard plastic one as with enough force it could stab somebody or even me.

[spetsnazdave87]

Random Lord of the Rings story: While filming the scene (later deleted from the final cut) where he gets his throat slit by his servant, Christopher Lee was getting a bit too much direction from Peter Jackson.

 

The final straw came when Jackson demonstrated in a very over the top and theatrical way how he wanted Lee to 'die' after getting knifed. Lee (who was a commando in world war 2) drew himself up and quietly said "Dear boy, I think you'll find I know the sound a man makes when his throat is cut!"

 

Jackson left him to finish the scene...

 

Anyways I think its a marked lack of sense of humour and sign of a bit of a *beep* if someone was to actually kick off with physical violence after getting knife killed. So you might get peeved if he did it a bit over enthusiastically but come on, Ive had someone do it across my neck and while the bowels did loosen it was a good kill and took a lot of effort so fair play!

 

Dave

[amateurstuntman]

On the knife kills, from behind, fair enough. If you come from the front, you're pretty much relying on the person being kind enough not to mow you down at a close distance, rather than "surprise".

 

 

In some cases maybe. Depends where you play, and what the general consensus is on site. If people making frontal knife assaults are happy to get mown down, then fair enough. So long as everybody knows it is ok to shoot near enough point blank.

 

Most the places I play I'd feel uneasy taking a shot at anyone less than 5 meters away really. Suppose it all comes down to a site by site thing. So long as everybody is playing the same rules and morals, then great.

 

 

I suppose if someones willing to risk charging you with a rubber knife at close range, shouting 'bang' isnt gonna cut it

 

 

At the 'werks and at the new academy site knife kills are allowed above the waist and below the neck.

At those sites the safety brief specifically warns you that you will get shot at close range.

I understand and acknowledge that I will get shot at close range.

I also understand that wearing a t-shirt and no armour will mean that those close range shots will hurt.

I further understand that a man who has been stabbed makes a lot of noise.

 

I don't do it for silent kills, I do it if I have run out of ammo or if I am aware that there is a person right around the corner.

I don't care if I get hosed doing it and the site allows it so that is my choice.

 

 

But that works both ways, if you don't like getting shot at close range, getting tagged or knife killed, playing in tight indoor spaces and having a ton of fun.

Don't play at the academy.

 

Play in a wood and contact everyone at extreme range.

[Thorbard]

So a rubber knife's fine since it isn't potentially lethal right? I am a bit surprised tho, that people are allowed to skirmish with real knives. The sites I play at, at the very least do not allow fixed tangs to be brought into skirmishes. The only thing i carry that can really cut in a skirmish is a tiny victorinox that also has a handy mini phillips head screwdriver.

 

Btw how did that someone actually get a knife kill with a real knife?

 

 

See, this is where we have to respect the 'differences' in groups of people:

 

I'm not sure that knives are a useful tool, for anything other than cutting things. & how often do you have to cut something in the middle of a skirmish? Really, something that couldn't wait or be dealt with in some other way?

 

So where as you feel threatened by people approaching you with rubber knives, I'm not sure about skirmishing with people carrying real ones.

 

The sites I play at have banned all 'real' blades, in line with legislation. (Prohibited articles etc.)

 

So, while I respect your view point, I feel that it is somewhat diluted by the fact that you are fine with 'useful tools'.

 

Unless you are talking about swiss army knives & lethermans etc, which should really stay in your kit bag & not be taken into the field of play.

 

As for 'getting a knife kill with a real knife' how ambiguous is that.

 

Greg.

 

A knife is a tool, not a weapon. Knives are useful at the type of site we play on. Cutting through vegetation (yes, it really is that thick), climbing, cutting rope or string, prepping wires for 'demolition' devices, cutting tape. Also useful for cleaning, as a screwdriver, as a lever. Leaving it in the safe zone isn't practical when its a 20-40 minute walk each way and the only break is an hour for lunch mid day.

 

Pretty much everything you can do with an army knife or a leatherman, except without the fiddlyness, the fact it blunts easily or the fact that it can fold back on your fingers. I've cut myself more times with folding knives than with my fixed knives. Its also not illegal to carry any kind of knife if you have good reason, and being off public property makes it a null issue anyway.

 

Ontop of that, the same people that normally question me about carrying a knife are the same ones that later ask to borrow it when they find something that requires a sharp point.

 

Knife kill with real knife: guy is crawling through really really thick foliage, using a knife to cut through it. Other guy is crawling down a more open space, comes up to guy with knife. "Oh! I'll take that [hit] then!" No physical contact, no threats of actual violence, no ambiguity about the situation.

 

The fact is, you cant, at a glance and especially not if its wrapped around your neck, tell the difference between a blacked steel blade and a black rubber blade. If the rules say a touch or being within two feet is sufficient then theres no need to get all fancy and actually stab people and thats what I have a problem with.

 

I don't feel threatened by rubber knives. I feel threatened by an ambiguous object being used to threaten me physically, no matter how innocent your intentions may be.

[Fightingchook]

good points on both sides.

 

but you have to remember... "We play this game for fun."

rules are there for a reason.

And as rules evolve, good ones are kept and refined and bad ones changed or removed... to make the game more fun.

As are repeat rule breakers... are avoided... removed and not invited to future games.

 

Everyone should be aware of the rules... and anyone getting aggressive on the field of play... shouldn't be there.

 

The knife kill makes the game more fun, and can show great skill in players to pull it off.

 

Even our Bang rule has evolved from something that wasn't working well and causing many arguments...

to something that works very well now and much better for both opponents... and gives a chance (if only small) to survive a bang kill.

 

ok... here are O-Clans Knife and Improved Bingo rules for your perusal

we have been using them for years... and it has been... more thrilling and less painful playing with them... than without them.

 

8 Surrender, BINGO! BANG!

8.1 A Surrender, BINGO! BANG! can come from any direction!

8.2 Gun must be working, loaded pointed at target as initial requirement!

8.3 Getting a surrender is a 2 step method.

8.3a If your target is close range and obviously without cover, You must say "Surrender" "Bang" "Bingo" "dude your so dead"

8.3b If they do not immediately announce “surrender” "i'm Dead" "Hit" "Sai" and raise hands or they move suddenly, as if to evade or fight back, you may Open Fire!

Eg:

Step 1 you ask for a "Bingo"

Step 2 opfor surrenders.. or opens fire

8.4 Suggested definition of close range

_______a. Stock power pistols and AEG’s under 1 joule 10 feet/3 meters

_______b. Any upgraded weapon or stock weapon over 1 joule 20 feet/6 meters

 

9 Knife Kill

9.1 Is a way of eliminating your opponent when in close proximity. Its advantage over calling for surrender is that it is silent.

9.2 A knife kill occurs when a player “taps” the opponent on any part of his body. When that happens the opponent is considered “dead”.

9.3 Attacker must gently use his hand, gun part or rubber knife. (NO real steel!)

9.4 A “knife killed” opponent does not announce that he/she is “hit”, and must stay silent. They then raises his/her weapon over his/her head and proceeds out of the play area like any “hit” player.

9.4 Also Killer may ask the opponent to stay in that position for a limited time as 'dead' until he decides that it is safe to move and continue to advance.

 

but of cause.. everyone.. and every game... different rules are used.... and you have to make do with what your given.

 

But if the rules permit you to shoot someone in back of the head at 2m with a 500fps aeg... and you think its really cool to do so... and that wont end up having your block removed.... then good luck with that.

FC