HIGH POWER!

[Slim_Shady]

Couple of points:

 

as we have seen seasoned players have openly admited to unaceptable behavour and lack of skills for such high velocitys

even when Meds are introduced a player should be able to accurately judge his range

 

The lesson learnt here is its easy to make mistakes when the adrenaline kicks in and no one is perfect. Every shot is a judgement call and I have at very close range (3 meters or less CQB) called myself out rather than shoot someone with a 350 fps gun

 

Sadly, most MED's seem to be chosen by the snipers who understand the potential for injury involved rather than being dictated by the sites themselves. One thing I don't accept is that adrenaline causes a complete loss of ability to play safely or judge distance.

 

If you're unsure then don't pull the trigger.

 

However, if you call yourself out rather than take a shot in a potentially dangerous situation (CQB or Sniping)I applaud that as sensible play.

 

High power is fantastic in principal and i would say the lethality issue is blown out of the water by Sim-u-nition being used in" the real world" as training aids throwing heavy wieght paint rounds @ over 1200 fps .

 

Are you a firearms expert? Frangiable paint rounds vs Solid ammo (BB's) was discussed and the potential figure of 4j was still touted by a leading expert witness. Your opinion aside, that was used as a basis for a ruling in a Court of Law.

 

I understand it is not allways practical to transverse to a side arm but...

 

Its always practical not to pull the trigger. Or to call oneself out rather than risk causing injury. No buts.

 

Limits should not be lifted untill certain members of the airsoft community cant accept a "bang" kill..... any sniper worth his salt should be able to hit a torso at even 30m Med . and as such sould be able to call a bang if he gets the drop on a clear shot ( not to be confused with just walking round shouting bang).

Even at lower fps i observe this courtesy and players that know me will often take a bang at 25m + . I play as i would like others to play ..I cant enforce it ...but how much better would our game experiences be ?

 

Its not so much a courtesy as an irrelevancy. If someone is 25m away merely shoot them once in the chest (AEG) or Switch to a back-up if you're in such an advantageous position - using the "Bang" rule at anything more than 5m is utterly pointless as its intent is to either remove the potential for injury at close range and even then as evidenced by numerous threads its a polarising rule which at best is hardly ever agreed on.

 

I like the idea of "trusted " players being given the privelidge of "hotter" weapons but i think the site owner must take the responcability of knowing the players game style long enough to know if this would be weilded irresponsably (yeah my spelling sucks ) and if unsure a blatant NO till proved otherwise.

 

I think high power is fine as long as its restricted to mil-sim and restricted ammo load-outs .. if you cant hit it ...dont shoot.

 

Trusted players are allowed to use hotter weapons? Not exactly.....trusted players should be allowed to play to the site rules. If that means you're trusted to use a 500fps bolt action then fine, it also means players who's ability has yet to be proven have to stay with sub-power limit weapons until such time as they are deemed safe.

 

I wouldn't allow a player to use hotter than normal weapons even if proven trustworthty because I don't particularly feel it adds anything to the game and beyond 500fps in the UK, on an open day, its completely unneccessary (totally irrespective of Mil-Sim load-outs which seems to be a pointless criteria to follow given most snipers use lo-cap magazines anyway).

 

That said, whatever people get up to on Private Days is their own business and doesn't bear discussion except in passing.

[Slim_Shady]

posted before editing - let me clarify slightly:

 

Its not so much a courtesy as an irrelevancy. If someone is 25m away merely shoot them once in the chest (AEG) or Switch to a back-up if you're in such an advantageous position - using the "Bang" rule at anything more than 5m is utterly pointless as its intent is to remove the potential for injury at close range and even then as evidenced by numerous threads its a polarising rule which at best is hardly ever agreed on....and at worse causes more arguments both on and off the field than it solves in its implementation.

 

Also a caveat - We all have different points of view/game experiences but if we all agree that when talking about saftey we're of a (reasonably) unified opinion then so much the better.

[Hammerfall]

Bitchtits - i know that site you're talking about and i asked a woman that ran it why they had that limit. I also, rather rudely, suggested it was because the guy that owned it ran with a Kar98 - they weren't happy

 

She basically said, the 450fps is what all snipers should be aiming for. The 500 is just to allow for fluctuations on the gas rifles... or some pish like that.

[bitchtits]

One thing i would like to know is how many players on here would happily take at shot at 20m if thats there sites MED, from posts it seems quite a few.

This is something i fully disagree with.

 

I beleave all players shouldnt take shots at less than 30m if they run a 500fps rifle,what EVER the curcimstances. That and EVERY player should carry a side arm when using a high powered rifle the "i cant afford it" ###### doesnt carry with me, if you can afford to run a tuned rifle at 500fps you can afford a side arm.

 

As slim i agree that players shouldnt be given privaleges to run over 500fps,letting a well know player run a converted semi auto at 450ish i wouldnt have a problem with though aslong as they stuck to sniper rules and didnt fire fast.(ive seen a guy use a g&g sr25 at 450fps and have 3-4 bbs in the air at once)

 

Ive played with my site owner for most of my time playing and had worked with them at there shop and site for over a year.

Ive grown a great friendship with them and with most the players on site, everyone know me as the sneaky b*stard usualy, and they all know im a fair player and NEVER take shots that may injure someone or be stupid with any of my guns.

Ive been told i would happily be aloud to run over the 500fps rule or run a semi auto aeg converted(something they wouldnt let most do), as if they couldnt trust me they couldnt trust ANYONE that playes there

BUT i still run at just under 500fps on one rifle and JUST and i mean just over 500fps on the other.

bar the fact i think it would have little advantage and i now find myself using my pistol more than my rifle, i think i would be compleaty unfair to other players to be able to do so.

 

 

hammerfall that was my interpritation of there rules aswell.

[Hammerfall]

I agree with you Bitchtits. In fact, I find it quite pointless to engage below 40m with my rifle, but my style of play usually means it is a rarity that i will ever be that close to the opposition. Just me though

 

Anyway, i managed to veer the last thread off on a digression, and should maybe stop before i do the same again, sorry chaps.

[Trasher]

One thing i would like to know is how many players on here would happily take at shot at 20m if thats there sites MED, from posts it seems quite a few. This is something i fully disagree with.

I beleave all players shouldnt take shots at less than 30m if they run a 500fps rifle,what EVER the curcimstances.

 

As stated, we have semi-only and 20m MED over 430fps, 600fps max. Secondary/sidearm is mandatory.

 

We play by those rules since 2006.

 

We (=local sniping community) shot hundreds and hundreds of people (including intl. events) without any serious incident. Typical engagement distances are less than 50 meters. Incidents of any kind involving snipers are pretty rare. Headshots with sniper rifles are uncommon. One case I can recall was a bleeding eyebrow from a 20m-ish shot taken by my team mate (after I gave him the green light to engage the target). Full-auto AEGs cause far more injuries, simply because the sheer number of rounds fired.

 

I've taken plenty of shots from 20-25m with a 550-600fps rifle when the shot was safe (full chest, full back presented, "safe" body part, weapon sticking out from cover). No one complained, ever. Funnily, what people tend to complain about is the close range (<10m) shots from the bone stock 310-320 fps TM Mk23 ("Ohh, that pistol must be powerful!")... And we use pistols a lot - inside and outside MED. If multiple targets pop-up at close range, and you have the suprise advantage, there is no point using the rifle 'cos you can take more guys down with the sidearm.

 

To put short: I've not problem with the 20m shot over 500fps if the sniper knows the capabilites of his rifle and picks target the way responsible players should. I prefer not to engage inside 30m unless the shot is safe.

 

ROF is the main problem at the skirmishes, not FPS.

[bitchtits]

I do agree with you trasher, but you seem to have better play there than here in the uk,something which im not proud to say.

mabay its the fact that more of your player are maturer or take it more serious.

and this isnt just aimed at scotland ive played all over the uk and found the same thing where ever i played.

 

Ive seen alot of people getting shot in the face , when there was no need be it sniper shots or aegs,.we have kids as young as 16(or even younger) playing and even they can pick up a 500fps rifle without even playing before.

 

To be fair i started when i was 16(but i was limited to 350fps,due to the rules then),But i was very mature about it all,being from a small island of the main part of scotland i was brough up with guns and shooting from a young age. this being one reason i got so into sniping and ghillies(i used to go out with game keepers when i was even younger than 10).

 

And as i said before its not always young kids, ive seen as many grown adults behave stupidly.

its just a problem we seem to have a specialy now this sport has become very large in the uk(our site started with around 15 players and was 1 of 4-5 in scotland,all which only had about 20-30 regulars. our site is now one of maby 10-15 and we get 100+ a gameday)so more idiots are expected,less is done, as its all about money to sites now in the uk not play and game,whet ever they say.

 

Also i do agree that far more injurys are caused by aegs, 10x more even.

 

im not saying i have never shot someone under 30m,as our rules used to be 20m, but since the change i dont see why you would need to shoot someoone with a rifle running at that power under 30m. for one theres no skill envolved in it and secondly this is a game at the end of the day played for fun.

why take the chance that you may hurt someone,even if its small.

[Stealthbomber]

Gotta say, I am utterly opposed to any kind of bang kills for snipers. In fact, I'd go so far as to refuse to play at a site where such a rule was enforced.

 

Slim Shady pretty much nailed it: As a sniper you always have the option to not pull the trigger.

 

Complaining that you aren't carrying a pistol so you couldn't take a <20m shot is, frankly, bullsh*t.

If you're going to allow snipers to make bang kills at less than their MED on the grounds that "a real sniper could make a kill at any range" then why not go the other way and allow bang kills for people with assault rifles at ranges >30m? Same thing applies.

 

It's really quite simple. If you want to make hits at >30-odd metres you need to walk onto the field with a sniper rifle. Equally, if you want to make hits at close ranges you need to take a suitable weapon.

 

I've had one experience at an airsoft site where I've been told I was bang killed by a hidden sniper who didn't want to reveal his position by taking a shot and, frankly, it was the low point of my airsofting career.

I'd fight any suggestion that a similar system should be formally introduced into airsoft in every way that I possibly can.

 

So, ummm, yeah. Something I have quite strong feelings about.

[brokenhalo]

To further my earlier comments....

 

I assumed this was just a theoretical topic and maybe i got caught up in the moment ... I see Airsoft as a combat simulation ..there are real consiquences in the real world and so it should be on the skirmish field ... you learn to be sneaky, duck and dive TRY and pick your engagments ,keep yer head down and so your skills progress.

 

I used Mil-sim as an example earlier as in my experience the ammo load out tends to make more sensible play ... if you have less ammo you use it wisely.

 

As stated by Thrasher its ROF that tends to be the problem at skirmishes .... ammo load out solves that one ... keep yer finger off or your watching for the rest of the day.

 

Yes i belive in a level playing feild but i saw this topic more as a what if ?

As i stated i play 425 SA... i see my role and fps in mid ground not an aeg nor sniper ...My mid capacity gives me the ability for mid range support and anti sniper....so a multi role , not so one sided as some oppinions.

 

My comment on not allways having chance to change to a side arm so quickly dismissed and mis quoted......you never walked out or got the drop on someone you didnt know was there or didnt realise was so close till you saw them ? as a regular skirmisher i would find that hard to belive. Point in case i was about 50m out of the main skirmish in woodland and rapidly stepping out through some hazel and found an opposing player 15m infront with his back to me ...If i walked i let the team down... calling a "bang" and moving on avoided any delay in the engagment and kept the day going merily . supprised but happily he nodded and moved on..."in the real world" weapons wouldnt have been changed for this engagment and the "bang" filled this void nicely...I agree if you KNOW of a close quarter engagment change to a side arm ,but its not allways like that is it ?

 

Again me mentioning the" bang "courtesy being shot down proves my point about limits never being raised ... AS I SAID unless All players can play nicely its not practical...

 

Ive had my fair share of cuts , welts and bruises same as many others here and know what it feels like on the reciving end .. that said i would be willing to partake in a THEORETICAL game of higher velocities all round (not just snipers)...with players i trusted to make the right decisions at the right time ..... No automatic fire other than support ....

 

Ill appologise now shall i

 

Stealthbomber.....i spent so long wording this i ran past your comment... NO, i too would take a dim view of a sniper calling a bang via marsall to avoid being detected .....again at that range he could not fire without detection ... he should have waited for you to pass by to his med or better still ,as again would be "real", avoid that particular contact.

A bang should be a "pants down" moment call.... your caught out..no ifs ands or buts..your caught out .you make the call you should be open to other hostilities..

 

Im a "bang" supporter but that would have P'd me off too

[Stealthbomber]

Hmmm, I suppose there are occasions where a sniper might use a bang-kill but, even so, if it's a 50/50 situation (1 player with an AEG and another with a boltie) who meet up unexpectedly it should be the sniper who takes the hit.

The only time a sniper should be allowed to score a bang-kill would be if a sniper with a shouldered weapon stumbles across a single opponent who's looking the other way.

I do agree that a situation like that could (and should) be handled informally with the other player taking the hit.

 

I just worry that a formal rule where snipers could call bang kills within their MED could be hugely abused and would result in snipers simply flanking around until they're within 20m of an opponent and then shouting "bang... bang...bang...bang..."

 

This is an old discussion but one that I don't think many people actually consider deeply enough.

If you're airsofting because you want to play soldiers then the game will be played totally differently to if you're playing it as a sport.

At the most basic level you should be expected to field a weapon suitable for making the hit if you want to make that hit.

No suitable weapon = no hit.

[The Bushman]

I've had one experience at an airsoft site where I've been told I was bang killed by a hidden sniper who didn't want to reveal his position by taking a shot and, frankly, it was the low point of my airsofting career.

I'd fight any suggestion that a similar system should be formally introduced into airsoft in every way that I possibly can.

 

So, ummm, yeah. Something I have quite strong feelings about.

 

That sounds like the most backward rule I've ever heard. No wonder you were on a low

 

Next, the marshal will be telling you that a player has you in their sights from 200m away and you have been hit . Ridiculous.

 

You either make a shot, or you don't. If opponents rush you and get into your MED; you have screwed up and they deserve to get you IMO (unless you are good at hiding/evasion or pistol shooting). "Bang hits" are indeed for moments only when you have complete suprise and in our rules, you must have a gun in your hands that has no MED. Even then, this rule is very rarely used.

 

years ago, we had to stop players calling "bang" on people they claimed they could shoot inside their MED, when it was obvious they had no clear shot, at all.

 

Anyway, my question regards the high power issues; revolves around the old woman reportd to have been shot and killed by a high power digicon pistol in Japan. If this indeed happened, what power and pellets were involved?

 

I read up on what can cause a fatal injury, a while back and the answer appeared to be; if a pellet can penetrate 5mm of flesh, it can potentialy sever some major blood vessels, that could lead to death.

 

Good Hunting

[Stealthbomber]

That sounds like the most backward rule I've ever heard. No wonder you were on a low

 

Next, the marshal will be telling you that a player has you in their sights from 200m away and you have been hit . Ridiculous.

Uhuh.

 

I don't want to derail the thread but I should elaborate a bit more...

I was walking along a path, with 2 other guys, through some 2ft high grass when the marshal told me I'd been hit by a hidden sniper. The 2 guys I was with kinda shrugged and rolled their eyes and I marched off to the spawn point like a good little drone.

Now, I KNOW this is bad practise, and in a normal situation we'd deserve all we get, but we got back together and headed back to the same area (a wide-open field of long grass between 2 wooded areas), just to kinda see what was going on.

We walked to the same path, from the opposite end, and saw a marshal about 50m away. He turned and started walking toward us and we were expecting some banter about the previous hit but (I assume he didn't recognise us because we were walk-ons) he just told us we'd all been hit by a sniper who was in hiding etc...

Range to the trees was 50m one way and 150m the other. Range to where I was "hit" previously was about 50m so the sniper should have had to move to make all his kills.

As it turned out he'd scored about 40 "hits" that day without firing a single shot.

In the end there were lines of players searching the grass but, basically, the marshal would just call them out as soon as he walked over to them.

 

Oh how we laughed.

[The Bushman]

Uhuh.

Oh how we laughed.

 

Sounds like a wasted afternoon and a site to avoid. At least no one got hurt from high powered guns.

 

Good Hunting

[The Chef]

I agree about the sidearm bit. If you've got an MED, then you need to have something to use in between it. That's bloomin common sense.

 

And incidentally one of the caveats at our site.

 

If you can't transition to your secondary for someone in MED then quite frankly you deserve to get hit. Echoing both SB's and Bushmans comments on that one.

 

As for Bang Kills..... well, I try not to use them unless I've got the barrel of my rifle touching the opponent. And I tell everyone at the start of our local games never to bang kill me. Shoot me as close as possible! The reason for this is 'gun failure', or indeed missing at close range!

[MagnumBB]

United States, California, Socal

 

450fps for bolt actions 100 feet , 550 for bolt actions 100 feet (respective fields)

 

Skirmishing

 

 

Depends on the fields I play at, I'll change pressures to match or fall below FPS limits. If roleplaying type game, I'll downgrade to 350-400fps and enjoy a shorter MED and the use of my irons.

[bitchtits]

we do play a sort of bang rule at our site but nothing like has been posted.

ours is more of a courtouse rule, you can ask someone to take there hit, if you are within a 1m or so, as to not cause injury.

But the player has the choice to take this or not,.

you can not ask someone 10m away to take this though,and with a sniper rifle its not advised as they know you cant shoot them even if they dont take it.

so its normaly only used if your using a side arm, an aeg or mange to prity much touch them when they didnt even notice you were there.(we also use knife kills,but these must be the soft rubber knifes, no real knifes allowed on site).

i do use this rule quite often my self ,even though i carry a side arm, as i do manage to get the drop on players quite abit, and would rather not shoot them at point blank range even with my pistol.

[Slim_Shady]

My comment on not allways having chance to change to a side arm so quickly dismissed and mis quoted......you never walked out or got the drop on someone you didnt know was there or didnt realise was so close till you saw them ? as a regular skirmisher i would find that hard to belive. Point in case i was about 50m out of the main skirmish in woodland and rapidly stepping out through some hazel and found an opposing player 15m infront with his back to me ...If i walked i let the team down... calling a "bang" and moving on avoided any delay in the engagment and kept the day going merily . supprised but happily he nodded and moved on..."in the real world" weapons wouldnt have been changed for this engagment and the "bang" filled this void nicely...I agree if you KNOW of a close quarter engagment change to a side arm ,but its not allways like that is it ?

 

Again me mentioning the" bang "courtesy being shot down proves my point about limits never being raised ... AS I SAID unless All players can play nicely its not practical...

 

It wasn't misquoted at all - you simply keep trying to invent situations to support your opinion and I'm disagreeing with you. 15m away with his back to you and yet you can't shoot him safely with a pistol? Or if you're such a proponent of the bang rule you couldn't tap him on the shoulder and remove him that way?

 

If you can't transition to your secondary for someone in MED then quite frankly you deserve to get hit. Echoing both SB's and Bushmans comments on that one.

 

Exactly. I have got the drop on people I didn't know where there, pistol killed them and moved on and I'm not a great player by any means so I tend to credit everyone with at least the level of ability I have - 2 seconds work to draw a pistol and take someone out if pushed, and given they don't know you're there how much time do you actually need?

 

The "bang" courtesy doesn't apply in the situations you seem to think it should frankly - a 25m shot can easily be fumbled...

 

To quote The Chef again:

 

As for Bang Kills..... well, I try not to use them unless I've got the barrel of my rifle touching the opponent. And I tell everyone at the start of our local games never to bang kill me. Shoot me as close as possible! The reason for this is 'gun failure', or indeed missing at close range!

 

Indeed. If you're close enough to bang someone you can put one shot into their webbing, or boot, or body armour - the Bang rule has in my experience caused more issues than its solved and can quickly degenerate into a playground squabble about who's dead.

 

Thats my last word on the subject - the sites I play on don't use the bang rule for the reasons we've all mentioned, and all snipers carry a sidearm to transition to when under the MED for a long rifle.

 

End of story.

[greg]

You know, it boils down to this,,,,

 

What ever the power limit & whatever the med, it has to be adhered to, by all players to make an even playing field.

 

&,

 

It should be as fun for the recipient as it is for the firer.

 

 

Greg.

[greg]

And I tell everyone at the start of our local games never to bang kill me. Shoot me as close as possible! The reason for this is 'gun failure', or indeed missing at close range!

I used to be exactly the same,,,,,until,,,,someone pointed out that was a bit unfair, it should be one rule for all.

 

They kind of had a point. I disagree with bang rules, but if that is the rule of the field, it is a bit unfair, me asking all players to recognise me & play by a different set of rules than for everyone else.

 

It's tough enough for most folk to identify & attack enemy, but then to also have to think, oh yeah, that's the bloke who would rather be shot,,,,,,,,,,,

 

& what if they make a mistake & shoot someone who kicks off, complaining they should have banged them.

 

I you get my drift.

 

 

Greg.

[banjo]

I've played at way to many sites where the bang rule was in play and got the drop on someone only for them to turn round and drill me and/or my team mates, I find its the kit tarts and clown shoe brigade that are worst offenders. Now, even if there is a bang rule, they get a shot gun shot in the least vulnerable place I can see and then I move on, no regrets, no arguments. Our team were always very shivalrous in regards the bang rule until the above happend to 1 of my mates and took a full auto burst to the face and chest at less than 3 metres, which is why we now ask nor give quater, but if someone offers us 'bang' we will respect it and take it, as noone really WANTS to get hurt, do they?

[docs90]

I play at a few sites now ,rather than stick to the same ones ,we have a good choice

 

All bar one site say MED of 25 metres with anything over 350 . so thats under 350 for aegs and upto but not over 500 for bolt actions

and 400 for DMR locked to single (400 dmr pointless tbh )

 

I have to say though i dont use there 25 metres engagement rule i allow myself more , at the end of the day i aint in this to hurt anyone 30-35m med is fine

 

I know two of the sites i play at state if using a B/A then you must carry a sidearm . AND if found to be firing inside the med even once then you carnt continue to play with anything over 350

sounds fair enough to me

 

And the onlytime a bang rule should be used is when getting the drop on someone within 5 metres but not with a b/a pointed at the opfor

[The Chef]

Greg, Don't get me wrong, I'll take a 'bang kill' if one is issued. But I don't expect it. It's more that I am happy to be shot up close and personal and don't want people to feel bad if they do.

 

 

Just moving ever so slightly away from the High Power issue, but related to it....

 

Heavy Ammo.

Greg touched on this briefly in another thread, and I think it warrants mention.

 

Using heavy ammo 0.36 and above in high power set ups and the perceived 'increase' in power that results from it.

 

I've never had an issue with people complaining about it, although they have mentioned that it hits harder and has a more psychological effect with its use.

Personally, these are both 'good' side effects.

 

What would be a good trade? Slightly lower power but heavy ammo, or higher power and lighter ammo? And for arguments sake, we'll assume ammo quality is consistent throughout the range (say SGM quality in all weights).

[bitchtits]

with the power to bb weights.

thats the only thing i do miss about my l96, it wouldnt play nicely unless i used .43g bbs in it.

 

the fear this brought onto the field due to the noise and impact was great, and also ment i had very few not hit takers,even at my max range.unless they were blaitintly cheating,a second hit in a soarer area with them generaly stopped that though.

 

this is something my vsr lacks(ive still to try madbull bbs),ive had quite afew no hits taken since i generaly use .29g sgms in this,and at longer ranges the power drops of dramaticaly.

i may change to madbull .4g bbs in all my guns if i find my results as good as otheres, just to get these afews back

[Slim_Shady]

All things being equal I'd go for heavier BB's, lower power. The net result in range would be very similar and I prefer the characteristics of heavy BB's for a better trajectory as well as more positive impacts.

 

One fact to bear in mind is that the heavier the BB the greater the MED - a .3g from a 500fps rifle carries 1j of energy at 30m or so....a .43g carries it further so people do need to be aware that on those sites with lower MED's you need to be stricter with your fire discipline and compensate accordingly.

[Wargasm]

I mainly see bang kills as courtesy to which I extend to a player that I have the drop on normally within 5m. However I am still ready to shoot if they refuse the bang kill (MED permitting).

 

As for BB i've found that the bioval .27 are the shizz when wanting supreme accuracy, but for gaming purposes the percieved extra punch the MB .4 give at extreme ranges give them the edge.